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Believe me, There's nothing I enjoy more than helping young players. I
would hate to
do anything to discourage them. I was very fortunate back in the fifties to
have very fine
musicians willing to take time with me when I had so many questions and I'm
more than
happy to do the same. I guess what I'm getting at is, why make it more
difficult than it
is (and God knows it's plenty difficult already). I believe it's important
to set a realistic
goal for beginners and then try to show them the least difficult way to get
there. I hang
with a lot of really good guitar players who love to share ideas. We all
agree on one
thing. Sometimes we intellectualize to much when simple explanations serve
as well.
Of course listening to other players, and not just guitar players, is
important. Knowing
how to listen and what to listen for is at least as important. I'm seeing a
lot of caring
musicians out there on the net. I love it!

Flip

Not true all the time. Playing solo guitar chord melody style allows for
those beautiful full six and seven string chords......
But as far as comping goes less is usually more (3rds and 7ths) give the
soloist plenty room to breath.

Bill

Most definitely, Bill. I believe we were talking about playing in a big
band environment, with the assumption that the guitar was acting solely as
an accompaniment instrument. Chord melody work using only short chords
would certainly be a bit too sparse, eh? ;-)

--brent

Brent D. Stuntzner Construction
7931 SW 40th Ave., #D
Portland, OR? 97219-3598

Stuntzner@...

_______________
Life without industry is guilt, industry without art is brutality.
John Ruskin (1819 – 1900), Lectures on Art, III,
The Relation of Art to Morals,[1870]

Not true all the time. Playing solo guitar chord melody style allows for
those beautiful full six and seven string chords.
Not always constant, but in the right passages spaced with notes and smaller
chords sound great.
Barney Kessel and Tal Farlow were known to use a lot of six string chords
usually wrapping their thumb around the bottom two strings.
I think there was an article a while back in JJG about old rhythm players
not playing in freddie green 3 note style.
Marty Gross and Barry Galbraith come to mind of 4 note rhythm players.
But as far as comping goes less is usually more (3rds and 7ths) give the
soloist plenty room to breath.

Bill

Hi guys.

I'm Vincent from Malaysia. I'm currently looking for a Epiphone
Sheraton / 335 Dot series model guitar or some others brand that have
similar shape and sound. My budget is around $500 - $600 USD. Please
contact me by email vinong@...

thanks.

Great advice from everyone, of course. I thought my 2 cents might be worth
a Peso, or two, so here it is:

SHORT CHORDS....period

"Short chords" are chords built from 3 or 4 of the necessary notes from
each chord. For example, a C7 chord is built as follows: C, Bb, E

They are easy to finger, remain mostly on the lower strings (thus staying
out of the way), and allow for quick changes. Mark Stefani has a blurb on
his page somewhere, I think (). I think Mark
mentioned recently that Jimmy Bruno is a short chord player too, so it's
not being a cop-out, instead it's useful stuff for the future!

--brent



Brent D. Stuntzner Construction
7931 SW 40th Ave., #D
Portland, OR? 97219-3598

Stuntzner@...

_______________
Life without industry is guilt, industry without art is brutality.
John Ruskin (1819 – 1900), Lectures on Art, III,
The Relation of Art to Morals,[1870]

Well, I certainly wasn't looking for a magic secret. I'm quite aware of the fact
that listening and years of experience are what make players great. I was merely
curious as to what the "minor concept" referred to...nothing more, nothing less.

For those that took the time to actually respond to the question, I appreciate
it.

eme

JHoopes930@... wrote:

It really kills me the way some of you people are looking for the magic
secret something
that suddenly turns you into a great jazz soloist. I've got news for
you....IT DON"T
EXIST. Years ago Martino was talking about a star system he used. Now he's
talking
about thinking dimished chords when he solos. It was BS then and it still
is. Pat
Martino is a great guitar player blessed with a wonderful ear, supurb
technique and the
talent to put them together. There are many talented players out there doing
the same
thing. It's that simple.

Flip
.

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I don't think it's BS; rather, it's a subjective view of self-expression.
That is, after all, what the beginner needs to know -up front. Yes,
they need to know that there's no magic bullet. However, the real
problem isn't with the players who do these instructional videos, books,
etc. Conversely, the problem is a mis-application of availble
information. A great Source for inspiration (like Pat is many of us) is
not to blame; Players may not always be able to inform the piblic of what
it is exactly they are doing in order to please so many listeners. So
the "schooled" types come in and want to get these players to "share"
their knowledge and experience -which, in and of itself, is a noble
gesture. What usually takes shape however -and has with several of the
"greats"- is that someone else assumes the role of getting that talent
to place everything he or she knows intutively into an externalized
"systematic approach method" or some such other incapsulating and
restrictive form in order to "proove" that others too may play as they
do.

Of course, there is absolutely nothing bad about honest learning from
others work. We all "cop licks" from other players whom we admire. You
point is well taken that nothing can substitute for hard work, active
playing experience, and a good "ear" for tunes. The only thing you fail
to mention is exactly HOW may we help one another in this learning
process -irrespective of our experience level. As a teacher, I must
recognize that the learning curve is not a constant; many learn best
visually, others by ear, while for others the best thing is "hands on"
first, explanations second. They all must combine to create the total
musical experience.


On Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:51:55 EDT JHoopes930@... writes:

It really kills me the way some of you people are looking for the
magic
secret something
that suddenly turns you into a great jazz soloist. I've got news
for
you....IT DON"T
EXIST. Years ago Martino was talking about a star system he used.
Now he's
talking
about thinking dimished chords when he solos. It was BS then and it
still
is. Pat
Martino is a great guitar player blessed with a wonderful ear,
supurb
technique and the
talent to put them together. There are many talented players out
there doing
the same
thing. It's that simple.

Flip
.

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Don Price




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Steve:

The brief analysis you offer is, in my opinion, somewhat incomplete or
more to the point, inaccurate if you will - nothing intended "ad
hominum". Let me try to explain. As I'm certain you know, Gmaj equals E
aeolian (natural minor with b6), not E dorian (with a nat. 6th) - if, of
course, one is referencing these to a major key area. Each of the other
twochord examples (Ami7 and Ami7b5) -if viewed from this perspective-
would be correct in relation to dorian "conversion". The difficulty is
that Pat does not offer such an explanation (to my knowledge) refarding
dorian minor conversions. That is something the method book transcribers
have labeled him with; transcription analysis is interpretative as much
as historical analysis.

I had the honor and pleasure of playing ("jamming" was more like it) with
Pat and Les Wise in L.A. before the time of his accident (this was when
the "linear expressions" book was just out)and I can tell you from that
brief experience that Pat never seemingly defined his soloing in terms
which would limit one to a specific minor scale or mode. In fact, he
related the concept of line-form improvisation as being a series of
melodic phrases, connected (and repeatable) by the various positions of
chord voicings (in this case, minor 7th types)which along themselves
horizontally along the fretboard. This was the reference point for
creating and utilizing long, flowing line-forms; each area of the
fretboard may be used to connect a melodic idea to the next. However,
the actual "substance" of these lines- I noticed- were a combination of
melodic, harmonic and rhytmic elements, which, when combined, served to
create these non-stop phrases which marveled all of us.

The technical aspect aside, this minor conversion renown of Pat's is
acombination of minor scales (dorian, aeolian, melodic & harmonic minor)
plus arpeggios, triads, intervals, pentatonic/blues and chromaticism. It
is too narrow an analysis to suggest that only a single approach will
adequately convey the boundless elements intrinsic in a Pat Martino solo.
I know, I've been working on them and trabscribing them for sometime
now. This is not to say that the minor scale conversion concept is
wrong; it is only the beginning of the story. The melodic continuity
which Pat displays is fundamentally grounded in years of internalizing
pre-arranged line-forms which will work and which can be modified by him
at will to suit any musical occassion. There is far more here than meets
the senses. It is not merely enough to suggest one scale - It is far
better to suggest utilizing the entire pallette of musical "tools" and
combining these into a unique, and melodically constant reference whereby
the minor chord voicings are used to "target" the areas of activity.

Once again, I find nothing "negetive" in your remarks Steve. I felt the
need to clarify on what had been stated. Pat and his playing is always
a pleasurable topic. Thanks.

____________________________________________
On Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:20:07 -0700 "Steve Gallagher"
<steveg@...> writes:

Someone recently mentioned Clay's thread on Martino's diminished

chord

concept, which btw I found immensely helpful. I have read
somewhere in
the past that when soloing Martino thinks of everything in terms

of

minor scales, etc. Does anybody know exactly what that concept
entails? Is it simply another form of substitions? Just

wondering...

eme

Gmaj -> E Dorian
Ami7 -> A Dorian
D7+9 -> D# Dorian
Ami7b5 -> C Dorian

Good luck,
Steve Gallagher

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Regarding Pat's "minor conversion" approach:

a. The main reference is NOT to intentionally redirect one's appraoch to
soloing (as Pat himself has pointed out); rather, it is to SIMPLIFY what
is already understood relative to any major scale tonality.
b. Minor scale conversion is not about scales as such. It is about
creating and utilizing conceptual "line-forms" (drawn from a variety of
scale sources as well as the available arpeggios, triads, intervals,
pentatonics & chromaticism). The reference point merely becomes - for
Martino - the minor 7th chord voicings and their inversions along the
fretboard, which connect these original line-forms to their parental
scale forms.
c. The idea that a specific mode is being thought about realitive to
Pat's improvising is only part truth; it would be more accurate to say
that Pat has worked out several lengthy line-forms (derived in and around
the minor 7 voicing shapes) which may be realigned (or modified) at will
according to the key of the moment. Pat has internalized these lines and
so can phrase them, shape their length, and embellish them to the extent
that it appears as "spontaneous combustion" -in terms of improvisation.
d. In order to "get inside" this kind of line-form soloing one must take
the time to think and hear in terms of music -not scales. The melodic
continuity eminating from Pat's solos are the direct result of "hearing"
these lines, not looking for which scale fits over what. The journey is
from the whole to the part (for analysis) and from the part to the whole
(for self-expression). Yes, one may implement the "tools" prior to the
forming of the improvised line, but once understood these tools must be
put aside in order to occupy the house.

There is more to be said here, but suffice to say that Pat Martino's
approach to improvising defies a specific "scale" catagory. I have
worked out and analyzed Pat's solos now for some 15 years. The melodic
continuity is part programed response (to and from the previously learned
line-forms) and part adaptation to the immediate response of "being" in
the moment.

Perhaps Clay Moore can "flesh out" this subject also.
___________________________________________________________________
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Try Juno Web: .

Someone recently mentioned Clay's thread on Martino's diminished chord
concept, which btw I found immensely helpful. I have read
somewhere in
the past that when soloing Martino thinks of everything in terms of
minor scales, etc. Does anybody know exactly what that concept
entails? Is it simply another form of substitions? Just wondering...

eme

Gmaj -> E Dorian
Ami7 -> A Dorian
D7+9 -> D# Dorian
Ami7b5 -> C Dorian

Good luck,
Steve Gallagher

Someone recently mentioned Clay's thread on Martino's diminished chord
concept, which btw I found immensely helpful. I have read somewhere in
the past that when soloing Martino thinks of everything in terms of
minor scales, etc. Does anybody know exactly what that concept
entails? Is it simply another form of substitions? Just wondering...

eme

________________________________________________________
NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you?
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at

It really kills me the way some of you people are looking for the magic
secret something
that suddenly turns you into a great jazz soloist. I've got news for
you....IT DON"T
EXIST. Years ago Martino was talking about a star system he used. Now he's
talking
about thinking dimished chords when he solos. It was BS then and it still
is. Pat
Martino is a great guitar player blessed with a wonderful ear, supurb
technique and the
talent to put them together. There are many talented players out there doing
the same
thing. It's that simple.

Flip
.

oracleelf@... wrote:

I'll let you know about the soloing in a minor key concept?.....Elroy Jones
is a good friend of minds...He taught Stanley Jorday...........He has alot
knowledge in this..Stay Tune for the update

AMEN, SAM !! Listening is the key. If you can't play what you hear,
you're
in hot water as far as being a good jazz player is concerned. That goes for
any
instrument. Joe Pass used to say, "being able to play a tuner in all keys is
essential. You should recognize a #9 chord when you hear it as well as a
Maj9#11
chord. You can't get this from a book. While we're at it, books that
supposedly
teach improvisation are BS. They're fine for practicing reading skills, but
won't
teach you a damn thing about putting good ideas together while soloing.

Flip

Having accumulated more guitar books than anyone rightfully should, I
must agree with Sam: learn theory, sure, but make sure to transcribe
solos and learn tunes. Two things about books actually slowed down my
progress - one is their emphasis on scales, to the exclusion of almost
everything else, the second was the frustration I had reading a
well-known reference from the 70s that was so full of chord/scale
diagrams and 5-,6-,7-fret stretchs that I began to think I would never
learn the subject. Some of the things that have really helped me the
most have been gleaned from various sources. Here's a small list:

1) For scale fingerings, get Jimmy Bruno's booklet and especially his
2-tape video. Jimmy's fingerings allow you to rip through scales (when
necessary) and have logic behind them. After years of wrestling with
trying to play a G major scale up to speed using the pattern that
starts 3-5-7, 3-5-7 (E and A strings), I swiched to Jimmy's fingerings
and can now play cleanly at even fast tempos.

2) Read Clay Moore's old posts in the "justjazz.com" archives regarding
how to "grow" other chords from dim7 chord forms. Clay ascribes this
technique to Pat Martino.

3) For a decent chord book, I have learned a lot of good voicings from
Warren Nunes "Chord Bible". In addition to usable voicings, he gives
good examples how the chords are used in progressions.

4) Learn apeggios - not so you can just run them, but because they
immediately tell you where the chord tones are. Borrowing from Mark
Levine's theory book, the chord tones offer you a safe 'pool of notes'
from which to select during solos. Knowing arpeggios, you will
immediately 'see' your all-important 3rd's and 7th's (as well as roots
and 5ths); you will also be able to see how many chromatic runs are
actually based on surrounding chord tones (i.e., hitting notes that are
a half-step away from a chord tone and then immediately resolving to
the chord tone). After a (long) while, you can actually 'see' a chord
form, its arpeggio, and an appropriate scale at any position. Knowing
arpeggios, you will be able to 'see' your #9's, b9's, #5's, b5's
beacuse they are right above/below chord tones.

5) Learn your enharmonics - a great way of 'recycling' chord forms (as
Warren Nunes describes it). This doubles and triples your knowledge of
chords immediately. Then use this knowledge to also recyle arpeggios
(e.g., using the familiar Cmaj7 arpeggio at position 3 for getting an
Amin9 sound, etc.)

6) Practice reading tunes. Great for learning to read and absolutely
necessary for learning new tunes/ideas. (remember the old joke: How do
you get a guitar player to play more quietly? Answer: Put some sheet
music in front of him/her.)

7) There are a lot of great players, but few great teachers (Bruno
being a notable exception). Texts (and videos) can mislead - don't put
all your faith in them.

8) Learn music theory (especially the circle of 5ths/4ths), chord
construction, scales - but then force yourself to apply it when
learning new tunes. If you don't know a good chord form at a certain
fret, then simply make one up using your knowledge of chord tones and
try to keep the melody note on top. I've found Joe Pass's very terse
books good for theory - the explanations are extremely short, but that
can be good. Learn it by applying it to new and old songs. Music
theory works!

Its easy to make up lists like this - doing them requires a lifetime
commitment.

Nick

























farnu-@... wrote:
original article:

Hey, not to be a dick or anything, but a lot of guitarists need to

get their

noses out of books. There is a book for every single thing out

there. You

should really try to figure things out on your own because you will
understand them a lot better. You should transcribe to learn

improvisation

because all of the books are written by people who transcribed a lot

and made

generalizations from the solos.
I do recomend the Jazz Theory book. Also check out "The Advancing

Guitarist"

by Mick Goodrick, and "Approaching the Guitar" by Gene Burtoncini.

If you

have those you should be all set with the material. Also, if

necessary get a

Real book. Other than that, spend your money on CDs. That is the

key.

Guitarists have millions of books and still sound bad because they

dont

listen to the masters.
So stop buying all these books and check out CDs before you go any

further.

Now, I'm not saying books are bad, but the real stuff is in the

recordings

Sam

Monette Sudler is still active in and around
Philadelphia. She played the Sunday Jazz Brunch
at Zanzabar on Broad Street. She still plays
great guitar.

Ed
__________________________________________________
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Clay Moore wrote:

According to Jimmy Bruno Monnette was off the scene for several years
because of some serious legal problems. She was DWI and killed someone
in an auto accident, was convicted and sent to prison. He says she is
back out and playing in the Philly area, and sounds great.

I guess that would qualify one to play the blues.

From: alisdair@...
Subject: [jazzguitar] Monnette Sudler
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Does anyone have any recent information on Jazz guitarist Monnette
Sudler ?

She was originally from Philedelphia, and recorded an album on
Steeplechase in 1993 called Brighter Days For You.

Is she still playing ? Where is she based ?

According to Jimmy Bruno Monnette was off the scene for several years
because of some serious legal problems. She was DWI and killed someone
in an auto accident, was convicted and sent to prison. He says she is
back out and playing in the Philly area, and sounds great.

--
Clay Moore --
jazz guitarist web developer
clay@... claymoore@...


To find out where I'm performing each week, sign up on my mailing list.
Go to

By the way, if anyone wants to contact Jimmy Bruno, his Web site is
www.jimmybruno.com and e-mail is jimmy@.... He's a very nice guy
who is very good about replying to e-mail.

Rick