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Hey Brother!

LOL, I know this is a can of worms. Check out the
uploaded file on my last post. I think most of the
work has been done but I am not sure why Wes is in
that position because I know he was a big influence on
Pat Metheny as much as Jim Hall. I don't think I would
put Pat Martino under Tal Farlow either. John
Mclaughlin is another that is under the Tal Farlow
branch?

I know you can hear the influences on some.
But, I guess the only way to really tell is to look at
interviews and see who are mentioned influences.

Let me know what you think?

--- John Amato <jamato316@...> wrote:

--- Sean Williams <scanz777@...> wrote:

Agreed he would not be in the same categories at
all,
I just did not have enough space. :)

I see it more like this:

Charlie Christian Django
/ &#92; &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall B.Lagrene

?

/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson,Martino,Raney Goodrick,Metheny,Sco

Sean,

I cannot see Birelli Lagrene over Mick Goodrick,

for

one reason they are contemporaries, another

reason,

Sean,

Very possibly there could be another sub-category of
"European Jazz Guitarist s (post-bop ...?
neo-Django?
post-swing?... neo-cool? jazz/rock ... I'd say take
suggestions for sub-cat and genres ...) --- Martin
Taylor would come on later in this category ... like
where would John McLaughlin go?

Sean, this will take some research ... lol ... did
you
foresee the research that this would involve ...
hehehe ... there ya' go, boy ...

..why? because your on a website where there are
some
passionate jazzers about our loved instrument ... me
being one .. and we cry out for just the right chord
... aka accuracy ...

...we are contribute to your chart .. and when it's
finished it will something we can all aspire to get
on
... hehe...lol

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11

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Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com



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Musicians also have a hard time defining what makes a hook effective
but you know one when you hear it. Keith Richards lick on "Start Me
Up" comes to mind.
Jason


--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Wm. Marshall Faircloth"
<mfcpa1@a...> wrote:

Swing - musicians have a hard time trying to define it but they

know

it when they feel it. Watch the audience. If they are foot-

tapping,

you're swinging!

Maintain

Marshall

--- dangelico603 <jpcombs@h...> wrote:

Hey John,
I'll agree with you that it is incredibly
difficult to communicate
how swing feels. However, I would say trying to get
a student to
contour a phrase a particular way is just as
difficult.

I think yahoo trimmed off all the spaces in your notation, i think i
have repaired it:

E flat 6th E flat 6/9 E flat maj 9 Eflat 6/9 Fmi9 B flat 13 alt

--8------------6--------------------------------3-----------3---
--11-----------8-------------8-----------6------4-----------3---
--12-----------8-------------8-----------7------5-----------4---
--13-----------10------------10----------8------6-----------6---
-----------------------------13----------10-----------------x---
------------------------------------------------------------6---

Nikos

--- In jazz_guitar@..., jazzism50@a... wrote:

My favorite version of this song is the 1959 Downbeat Magazine
jazz album of the year version by Johnnie Smith and Stan Getz.

Johnnie's

trademark sound is the use of what I believe are called chromatic

chords. They

are typically stretch chords that can be quite challenging to the

tendons when

initially used. eg. I dont really know how to notate like this but

here is

an attempt key E flat----first two bars

Hey Ernesto,
The book is called "Counterpoint For Guitar: With Improvisation In
The Renaissance Style And Study In Motivic Metamorphosis." by Dusan
Bogdanovic. It's quite a book. Hope that helps.
Jason


--- In jazz_guitar@..., Ernesto Schnack <e_schnack@y...>
wrote:

From: "dangelico603" <jpcombs@h...>

There is a book (I forget
by whom) for classical guitarists for learning
to improvise in three
voices!

I'm really curious about this book, remember
anything else about it?

Ernesto




__________________________________
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I don't see Django at the top of this list because, as
a contemporary of Christian in "swing" from the 30s to
53 when he passed away, his major influences were not
in American roots as Chritians' were, et. al. W.C.
Handy, Jelly Roll Morton: Blues and Dixieland ...

I don't consider them contemporaries. Django recorded profusely from 1934 on. Christian's first recording with Goodman was in 1939. It is widely reported that CC used to play Django's solo to St. Louis Blues.

If you read the interviews with jazz guitarists from the 40s, 50s, 60s, they almost all say they were influenced by Django. Guitar Player put out a whole book of these interviews. Django had recorded octave solos while Wes was still in grade school. He was the first person I've heard to play a solo of artificial harmonics. Joe Pass (curiously missing from the list) titled one of his first albums "For Django". Et cetera, et cetera.

Steve

Hey YJGG,

Juan was nice enough to send me the .pdf and I went
ahead and loaded the file in our archive. Check it out
it is pretty interesting.

Home / PDF Files / Miscellaneous

Thanks again Juan.

Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com




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I agree - much bigger tree, I liked the post form the guy who
mentioned Burrell, Kessel, Farlow, Van Eps - whose stature and
influence goes beyond Jim Hall IMHO. If you are looking for a top to
the tree you should look beyond Django and Christian and check out
Eddie Lang. He made the guitar a solo instrument before the electric
era.


--- In jazz_guitar@..., "jim_9791" <dimitris@d...> wrote:

You guys have to make a bigger tree. And some branches have the

same

age, but look at different directions. And another thing,

shouldn't

the roots be at the bottom?










--- In jazz_guitar@..., John Amato <jamato316@y...>
wrote:

Charlie Christian

/ &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson, Martino, Raney Goodrick, Metheny,
Scofield

Is this fair?

Jimmy Raney came before Wes and Jim. An example is
the recordings
with Stan Getz that date back to c. 1950. Tal Farlow
also was
prominent then, and Wes even cited him as an
influence.

Ben,

Historically, Ben may more accurate because in 1955,
Jim Hall became a member of the original Chico
Hamilton Quintet, and was then that Jim began to
attract national, and then international, attention.

and same for Tal and Wes... this chart may have to be
revised ... besides whatthe books say ... I think the
real experts on jazz guitar are right are here in this
forum...
(glad to be in the company ...)

His Discography states:
1950s:
Jim Hall: Jazz Guitar (Pacific Jazz)
Street Swingers with Bobby Brookmeyer & Jimmy Raney
(Pacific Jazz)
Undercurrent with Bill Evans (United Artists)
Paul Desmond and Friends (Warner Bros)

...which dates Hall 5 years Raney's junior ,,,,

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

I see there have been a couple of answers to Attilla's question about time,
but I don't think they address what he was wondering since the answers talk
about keeping time, but his question is about SWINGING or as he calls it
"that strong jazz feel".

I think, if you don't have a group to play with that has a Jazz rhythm
section, you really have to listen to a ton of recordings. And, personally I
would stay away from the newer musicians, or at least the newer tunes,
because it is too easy to get caught up in the complexity of their playing
and not focus on the swing tempo.

If you could get your hands on some Louis Armstrong albums for example. That
cat just swung from so deep down that he provides a solid education for any
musician on any instrument. For guitar, try to get some Freddie Green, or
Charlie Christian. If I read your letter right, you probably have no trouble
keeping time, it is that you are trying to get that just-a-bit-off-the-beat
feel that really picks up the music and makes it...well, swing.

Even when you are practicing (and yes, I agree a metronome is a good idea)
try always to hear that "buh-duuh" pulse supporting the feel of the tune.
Although the time keeping device is dead on, you want to control the in
between spaces. Like how a good drummer can be on the beat and yet have a
ton of flexibility in whether they are pushing or pulling the band in one
way or another.

I don't have any specific exercises to build up this feel, but maybe a good
teacher at your jazz school could suggest something?

All the best, John P.


Hello everybody!

I'm playing jazz-guitar since few years, and I learned a lot of chords
and scales, and all kind of theory (I just begun the fourth year in a
jazz guitar school). I have a little combo and we use to play in small
jazz-cafes (unfortunately not too often:(..., but anyway, my biggest
problem now is the right time (I think this is the right term for it),
to have that strong jazz feel.

So make it shorter could you give me some tips hove to improve my time?

Thanx a lot
Attila (Hungary)

--- Sean Williams <scanz777@...> wrote:

Agreed he would not be in the same categories at
all,
I just did not have enough space. :)

I see it more like this:

Charlie Christian Django
/ &#92; &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall B.Lagrene ?
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson,Martino,Raney Goodrick,Metheny,Sco

Sean,

I cannot see Birelli Lagrene over Mick Goodrick,

for

one reason they are contemporaries, another

reason,

Sean,

Very possibly there could be another sub-category of
"European Jazz Guitarist s (post-bop ...? neo-Django?
post-swing?... neo-cool? jazz/rock ... I'd say take
suggestions for sub-cat and genres ...) --- Martin
Taylor would come on later in this category ... like
where would John McLaughlin go?

Sean, this will take some research ... lol ... did you
foresee the research that this would involve ...
hehehe ... there ya' go, boy ...

..why? because your on a website where there are some
passionate jazzers about our loved instrument ... me
being one .. and we cry out for just the right chord
... aka accuracy ...

...we are contribute to your chart .. and when it's
finished it will something we can all aspire to get on
... hehe...lol

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11




______________________________________________________
Yahoo! for Good
Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

You guys have to make a bigger tree. And some branches have the same
age, but look at different directions. And another thing, shouldn't
the roots be at the bottom?










--- In jazz_guitar@..., John Amato <jamato316@y...>
wrote:

Charlie Christian

/ &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson, Martino, Raney Goodrick, Metheny,
Scofield

Is this fair?

Jimmy Raney came before Wes and Jim. An example is
the recordings
with Stan Getz that date back to c. 1950. Tal Farlow
also was
prominent then, and Wes even cited him as an
influence.

Ben,

Historically, Ben may more accurate because in 1955,
Jim Hall became a member of the original Chico
Hamilton Quintet, and was then that Jim began to
attract national, and then international, attention.

and same for Tal and Wes... this chart may have to be
revised ... besides whatthe books say ... I think the
real experts on jazz guitar are right are here in this
forum...
(glad to be in the company ...)

His Discography states:
1950s:
Jim Hall: Jazz Guitar (Pacific Jazz)
Street Swingers with Bobby Brookmeyer & Jimmy Raney
(Pacific Jazz)
Undercurrent with Bill Evans (United Artists)
Paul Desmond and Friends (Warner Bros)

...which dates Hall 5 years Raney's junior ,,,,

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

Agreed he would not be in the same categories at all,
I just did not have enough space. :)

--- John Amato <jamato316@...> wrote:

--- Sean Williams <scanz777@...> wrote:

I see it more like this:

Charlie Christian Django
/ &#92; &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall B.Lagrene ?
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson,Martino,Raney Goodrick,Metheny,Sco

Sean,

I cannot see Birelli Lagrene over Mick Goodrick, for
one reason they are contemporaries, another reason,
they are not in the same genre -- and Lagrene would
not be a bopper either ... he would have to be in
another category ...

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
--------------------~-->
Life without art & music? Keep the arts alive today
at Network for Good!

--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Yahoo! Groups Links


jazz_guitar-unsubscribe@...

Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

Oh My Gawd, where's Leonard Feather when we need him.

M


--- In jazz_guitar@..., John Amato <jamato316@y...>
wrote:

Charlie Christian

/ &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson, Martino, Raney Goodrick, Metheny,
Scofield

Is this fair?

Jimmy Raney came before Wes and Jim. An example is
the recordings
with Stan Getz that date back to c. 1950. Tal Farlow
also was
prominent then, and Wes even cited him as an
influence.

Ben,

Historically, Ben may more accurate because in 1955,
Jim Hall became a member of the original Chico
Hamilton Quintet, and was then that Jim began to
attract national, and then international, attention.

Swing - musicians have a hard time trying to define it but they know
it when they feel it. Watch the audience. If they are foot-tapping,
you're swinging!

Maintain

Marshall

John Amato wrote:


...the response is great -- they bounce back off the
strings and the sound they produce is warm yet bringt
(hard to explain..) ... best sound the guitar has made
so far with the Dunlaps I was using (1.5mm, 2mm,
2.5mm) ...

,,the edge is belved so ther is no shard points ...
and it's groved in such a way as to almost stick to
your thumb .. it's a pick that is super ergonomic ...

I agree with John's comments! These are the best
picks out there that I can find. I try others every
so often, but always pick up the Wegen Gypsy Jazz
shortly afterwards.

Be Well,
John



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

Charlie Christian

/ &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson, Martino, Raney Goodrick, Metheny,
Scofield

Is this fair?

Jimmy Raney came before Wes and Jim. An example is
the recordings
with Stan Getz that date back to c. 1950. Tal Farlow
also was
prominent then, and Wes even cited him as an
influence.

Ben,

Historically, Ben may more accurate because in 1955,
Jim Hall became a member of the original Chico
Hamilton Quintet, and was then that Jim began to
attract national, and then international, attention.

and same for Tal and Wes... this chart may have to be
revised ... besides whatthe books say ... I think the
real experts on jazz guitar are right are here in this
forum...
(glad to be in the company ...)

His Discography states:
1950s:
Jim Hall: Jazz Guitar (Pacific Jazz)
Street Swingers with Bobby Brookmeyer & Jimmy Raney
(Pacific Jazz)
Undercurrent with Bill Evans (United Artists)
Paul Desmond and Friends (Warner Bros)

...which dates Hall 5 years Raney's junior ,,,,

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

--- Robin <rbalean@...> wrote:

John,

It is wrong to say that Django has not influenced
any jazz
guitarists. Django was a huge influence on
virtually every jazz
guitar player from about 1940-1960.

Robin,

where did I say Django did not influence jazz
guitarist? please go back and read my post (in its
entirety...).

please read again what I said that he was a major
influence and had a huge impact on jazz guitar besides
being a major contributor to the field.

I give Django all the credit, applause, acclaim and
rightful place in the jazz guitar illustrious hall of
fame ... merely, that he doesn't belong at the top of
the list

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

--- dangelico603 <jpcombs@...> wrote:

Hey John,
I'll agree with you that it is incredibly
difficult to communicate
how swing feels. However, I would say trying to get
a student to
contour a phrase a particular way is just as
difficult.

Jason,

There is one exception I have to take with my own
statement about classically trained guitarists having
a problem with "swing" feel. And that player is Gene
Bertoncini -- he just slipped my mind is a
wonnderfully gifted jazz guitarist and can "swing" an
1/8 (or 1/16) with the best of them ....

...Jason, what I have found with my students over many
years when trying to teach the swing feel is this ...
There is really no technical exercise other than what
hhas already been published on the notational
expression which is inadeqaute IMHO....

I would tell them to listen to the recordings of Benny
Goodman, Glen Miller, Artie Shaw, Count Basie, Duke
Elligton, Gene Cooper, Max Roach, Cab Calloway, Gene
Kupra, Lionel Hampton, et. al. I would even play some
of those recordings at a lesson and would have them
point certain things out about articulation and feel.
(I would make cassette tapes with exceprts from big
bands and small units for them to listen to ... same
as some of my teachers did for me ... ) ... I believe
that as jazz educators this is in the fashion of
carrying on the legacy ...

Then I would suggest they move on to Gil Evans,
Maynard Ferguson, Bill Watrous, even Chuck Mangione
...

The point being that they get a wholistic approach to
"swing" from it early roots to today NOT JUST ON THE
GUITAR ... but how every instrument in Jazz executes
the "swing" feel...

...that is how I learned...by listening to where
"swing" came from ... as it graduated from Blues going
on up the muddy Mississippi ... and got educated when
it reached Chicago and high bred (iformally)
instructed musicians like Benny Goodman, the Dorsey's,
and travelled eastward and merged with the "stride"
piano pioneers, et. al ....

I mean, I learned "swing" by listening to cats likie
Bix, Jimmy Clayton, Paul Gonzavalez, the Prez, Zoot
Sims, and others who made their names and bands known
in the 40s ...

I seriously thing that a jazz guitaris has to listen
to how other instrument articulate swing in order to
analyze and re-examine (internalize) for themselves
howthey can execute "swing" on their ax so that it
feels good to them -- IN ORDER FOR THEM TO "SWING" as
if they own the concept ....




John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

--- Sean Williams <scanz777@...> wrote:

I see it more like this:

Charlie Christian Django
/ &#92; &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall B.Lagrene ?
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson,Martino,Raney Goodrick,Metheny,Sco

Sean,

I cannot see Birelli Lagrene over Mick Goodrick, for
one reason they are contemporaries, another reason,
they are not in the same genre -- and Lagrene would
not be a bopper either ... he would have to be in
another category ...

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

Sorry guys, wrong URL. Make that:



Regards,

Dick

A classic Clifford Brown bebop tune on the ES 335.

Video at:



Regards,

Dick