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From: "dangelico603" <jpcombs@...>

There is a book (I forget
by whom) for classical guitarists for learning
to improvise in three
voices!

I'm really curious about this book, remember
anything else about it?

Ernesto




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--- In jazz_guitar@..., Sean Williams <scanz777@y...>
wrote:

Charlie Christian
/ &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson, Martino, Raney Goodrick, Metheny,
Scofield

Is this fair?

Jimmy Raney came before Wes and Jim. An example is the recordings
with Stan Getz that date back to c. 1950. Tal Farlow also was
prominent then, and Wes even cited him as an influence.

If you go to the Gibson Website they have re-issued the ES-150 to the specs of the one Christian used...

josh <isotopekat@...> wrote:I've never had a chance to see a real gibson ES-150. Anyone know what
the fretboard radius of this guitar when Charlie Christian would have
played one? I guess they always describe pre-war 150's and post-war
150's. How much did they change?

John,

It is wrong to say that Django has not influenced any jazz
guitarists. Django was a huge influence on virtually every jazz
guitar player from about 1940-1960. It's true that the gypsy style
that made him famous didn't make it into mainstream jazz, but this
doesn't mean that his influence was not strong.

Charlie Christian had great admiration for Django and apparently was
able to play his solos note for note. The first gig Wes had was one
in which he only played Django solos. Joe Pass released an entire
album called "For Django" and also started off playing Django style.
The list is endless. Of course all these guys had their own
distinctive styles, but there is a bit of Django in all of them! Of
course, for the original gypsy guitar style there is still an active
scene with guys like Birelli Lagrene, Stochello Rosenberg, Martin
Taylor, etc.

If you listen to Django's recordings after the second world war, he
has a much more modern sound and line-up. He was a passionate fan of
bebop after hearing Dizzy's "Salt Peanuts", immediately recognising
the contrafact. He played with Gillespie when Diz visited France in
the early 50s. He was also a big fan of Bird. Django's last
recordings were pure bebop and are well worth hearing if you can get
hold of them.

I don't think I would put Django at the top of the tree either, but I
would put him alongside Christian.

Rob

Hey John,
I'll agree with you that it is incredibly difficult to communicate
how swing feels. However, I would say trying to get a student to
contour a phrase a particular way is just as difficult. I was just
objecting to jazz being the hardest form. I believe all forms of
music are equally difficult to play well. They just require
different skill sets. Jazz players probably won't spend a lot of
time perfecting their cross-string trills as most classical players
don't really work on swing. I play both and it's a bitch to keep
them up, which is why I doubt I'll ever be great at either. Not
enough hours in the day.
Jason


--- In jazz_guitar@..., John Amato <jamato316@y...>
wrote:

--- dangelico603 <jpcombs@h...> wrote:

Hey John,

Some classical guitarists can and do improvise.

Jason,

Granted that many classical players improvise -- but
do they "swing"? You can teach the rudiments of
improv. in any teacher/student relationship ... but
try and teach a student to "swing" -- have yoy tried
that with your students (I'm assumping that you teach
jazz guitar ... if not, thiink of your teacher trying
to teach you to swing).

Classically trained musicians are taught straight
1/8s, straight 1/16s -- it rudimentary -- and jazz
guitarists must also cut their teeth on straight 1/8s
otherwise there is no range in their scope of dynamics
...

Yes, theoretically, they say to "swing" a couplet all
you have to do is play a triplet and leave the middle
1/8 note out. Is that "swing" -- I once heard a
classical player trying to swing using that exact
method andhe sounded like just like the exercise that
he must have spent 100s of h ours with -- there was no
syncopation to his swing (I wouldn't call it swing) ..
it was more like morese code on a telegraph wire...

...Now, the value of straight 1/8s is invaluable to
all players, including jazz guitarists. When I pick up
Chet Atkin's chart for "Mr. Sandman" (check his
version out), he plays marvelous strings of continuous
1/8 notes that are genuinely gorgeous in feel and
execution. When I play that chart I have to be
especially careful not to "swing" because it would
ruin the whole effect of that song.

Metheny recorded a number of his early tunes in
straight 1/8s, and they are marvelous. As musicians we
have to master the straight and swing interpretation
-- however, "swing" is more than an interpretation,
it's a "feel" that comes from an attitude about the
bar, the measure, "four to the bar," etc., etc...an
attitude about the very music that moves ...

So, it remains, "to swing, or not to swing," 'that is
the question, whether 'tis nobler in the heart to
swing the 1/8 or delete the middle triplet ...'





John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11

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Cool, do you have a scanned image?

--- JVegaTrio@... wrote:

I haven't read all the messages on this thread, but
I believe the Maurice
Summerfield jazz guitar book has a pretty good
'tree' on jazz guitar, at least
from the beginnings, through the '80s, or
thereabouts.

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega



[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]



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Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com



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I forgot Freddie Green being an influence on Jim Hall.
So maybe the tree should look like this.


Charlie Christian Django
/ &#92; &#92;
Freddie Green B. Lagrene?
/ &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson,Martino,Raney Metheny,Sco,Goodrick


I think the others did not have as much impact as Wes
and Hall, IMHO.

--- Adriel <azure.music@...> wrote:

I think you missed some people

Eddie Lang, Freddie Green, Oscar Aleman,.. To name
just a few. Then there's
the Hawaiian steel guitarists who definitely had an
influence on the time
period.

Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com



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I would have to agree with what John said about
Django. I am not saying that he was not brilliant he
was. I think his style was so distinct that his
infuence did not pass on like Montgomery or Hall's.

I see it more like this:

Charlie Christian Django
/ &#92; &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall B.Lagrene ?
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson,Martino,Raney Goodrick,Metheny,Sco



Sean Williams
www.gtr4hire.com



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John you missed one big influence. Louis Armstrong. Django loved him.

_A

--- bausin@... wrote:

Django

|
Charlie Christian
/ &#92;
Wes Montgomery Jim Hall
/ &#92; / &#92;
Benson, Martino, Raney Goodrick, Metheny,

I don't see Django at the top of this list because, as
a contemporary of Christian in "swing" from the 30s to
53 when he passed away, his major influences were not
in American roots as Chritians' were, et. al. W.C.
Handy, Jelly Roll Morton: Blues and Dixieland ...

Django's major influences were from gypsy musicians
such as Poulette Castro and Gusti Malha -- not rooted
in jazz. Django's aspirations were to play with an
American big band, which he did in the late 40's, with
Duke Ellington (was Django's last tour before he
passed on in 53...)

Django, no doubt was a huge contributor, and made a
largecontribution to jazz guitar -- but he doesn't
stack up to be top gun ...


John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



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What about:

1. Jimmy Raney, Kenny Burrell, Barney Kessell, Tal Farlow and others (like Johnny Smith) in that vein after Christian?
2. Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Mundell Lowe, Tal, & Grant Green along with Wes and Jim Hall?

Django and Christian were essentially around at the same time. One was European Gypsy the other Mid West Swing and Blues.

Then thereare those that were more or less contemporaries of Christian (an influences on him): Oscar Moore & Eddie Durham (who was the one that turned a young CC on to the electric guitar).

There are too many others that were important and influential before Chirstian on the instrument. I saw where someone mentioned Lang, but then there is Kress, McDonough, Van EPs and the other big band guys like Freddie Green and Bus Etri that had a major impact on the instrument at the time. The timeline from the 1900's to 1970 would fill a volume or two of an encyclopedia-type book easily.

I know that you were probably giving an overview but there are too many people to figure in (for me that is). I must lie down and think about this............... :)

I think you missed some people

Eddie Lang, Freddie Green, Oscar Aleman,.. To name just a few. Then there's
the Hawaiian steel guitarists who definitely had an influence on the time
period.

Django

Here you go (attached to this message); the 2 pages line up side by side. I
thought it was kind of interesting, & any document that acknowledges Rene
Thomas is alright by me...

Cheers all,
JV

Juan Vega

Cool, do you have a scanned image?

These are indicating the string, if it is just the number near the note it indicates the finger to use to play that note.



Joseph Ramirez

--- rayray <rayray@...> wrote:

But I do like what
the younger guys are doing rhythmically and
harmonically. I just feel
as though a breakthrough has been made from more
traditional
"guitaristic" approaches to playing the guitar.

Ray

"Breakthroughs" I see as progression of the art ... I
do not deny there are many young players today, Rusell
Malone as one, that are pushing the envelope -- and
that is good ... I listen with an open mind ... not an
open pocket ...

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11

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--- rayray <rayray@...> wrote:

bozobreak wrote:

Hello everybody!

I'm playing jazz-guitar since few years, and I

learned a lot of chords

and scales, and all kind of theory (I just begun

the fourth year in a

jazz guitar school). I have a little combo and we

use to play in small

jazz-cafes (unfortunately not too often:(..., but

anyway, my biggest

problem now is the right time (I think this is the

right term for it),

to have that strong jazz feel.

So make it shorter could you give me some tips

hove to improve my time?

Ray,

this may sound over simplistic, but what I have fond
to be very effective is this: when you are not playing
with a drummer or another musician where time is et
down -- use a Metronome -- yes, whenever you play,
pratice, etc. whereno other musician is playing ...
use a Metronome ..

...my timing usially went off the wall whevever I was
not playing with a band until I established the
metronomme rule w/myself ... after 37 years I still
use it ... yes, the same metronome is about 35 years
old ... the one that has the silencer on the back
where you get a blinking light if you are recording
and don't want the clicking sound ...

...it's indispensable for me....

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



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--- Alisdair MacRae-Birch <akmbirch@...> wrote:

If you haven't done so, why not visit it, you need
to login using a
separate login id from Yahoo, which is easy to
create, and it's free.

...

Alisdair,

excellent .. I just went there and downloaded Mick
Goodrick's files ... what a great advanatge the youung
players have today that years ago we never had ... I
was glad in 1970 to find Mickey Baker's Jazz chord
book ... and when Joe Pass' Orange book came out I
devoured it .. today there is so much out there that
young players sometimes are overwhelmed by the
overload and sometimes also get frustrated because of
the new fad thing for sale on the web .. nee
guitar...new pedal...new this...ne that ...

...i would love to upload some of my files ... the
thing is I'm doing a million things .. findinng the
time is a premium...

thanks again...

John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11



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John Amato
Music blows the dust off your soul...
Isa.55:11

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Do You Yahoo!?
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I haven't read all the messages on this thread, but I believe the Maurice
Summerfield jazz guitar book has a pretty good 'tree' on jazz guitar, at least
from the beginnings, through the '80s, or thereabouts.

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega