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NO,this by no means was meant to insult anyone.It
seems that guitarist are a little anal when it comes
to the execution of song.I include myself in this
catagory and time to time have to check myself and
realize that most of my audience is made up of non
musicians and could not give a hoot about my knowledge
of theory.A humbling example was when I was playing an
absolutely scorching solo over dolphin dance and I was
proud,that same eve during my set I let a friend come
up,who btw,plays nothing but blues.needless to
say,after his first long ,vibrating,sustained,and very
soulful note,my regular audience took several minutes
to quiet down for the rest of his song.My point,grab
the audience with something that is emotional even if
it's mary had a lil lamb...so,so,solly...Eric...

You're right.
The music industry has become more & more
monolithic and closed to actual artists since the
mid 80's, I think. People say it has always been this
bad, but I dont think so. Sure, people in the music
industry
have always been about robbing artists (and the
public)
and turning a quick dollar, but never has it been so
blatant
and disgustingly locked into genre specific
catagories.

I bought Cloud About Mercury in '87, too. What an
amazing
record. It really is tragic that someone as brilliant
as
Holdsworth is so idiotically misunderstood. When his
career
first began, late 60's early 70's, the public and the
industry
were so much more open minded and into the concept of
invention. Although I think it's not the only
important thing
in music, being innovative, it was so refreshing at
the
time (even though I was just born then). I am always
discovering
new music from that era that is amazing. I am really
suprised if
when I hear anything half way original or creative
that was released
since the late 70's-mid-80's, jazz, rock or pop. A
major label is not
going to get behind anything as ground breaking or
beautifully
original as Hendrix, Steely Dan, Stevie Wonder, Joni
Mitchell, Bowie, Sly &The Family Stone,
Zeppelin, Zappa, King Crimson, etc., in this current
climate.
Maybe never again.

Socio-political factors have something to do with it
to.
I dont mean to sound negative, it's just a fact.
I've been in the industry since 1990 and I just cant
believe the morons I've met that are in charge of
signing, marketing,
radio, etc. Absolutely no concept of talent and
unapologetically
open about the fact that it's "all about money".

Stuck in the 70's-Mark (also the best era for guitar
music,
I think)



--- Dave Stagner <dave@...> wrote:

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Patricio Murphy" <murphy@g...> wrote:

I don't go as low as you may want to, but my Takamine flat-top is

fitted

with a 0.65 bass string (I've even used a 0.80) as 6th that I tune

as low as

Bb. You may first try with two bass strings and see if you like it

before

comitting to a new guitar.

Muchas gracias, Patricio. What modifications did you have to make to
your Takamine to get the new strings to work? Any problem with the
neck twisting? One possibility would be to convert a twelve string
to the 2 string bass, 6 string guitar or to an alto guitar.

Another option would be a 7 string guitar.

Not quite low enough, I'm afraid.

Yet another option would be to use a Roland VG8 processor, which,

IMHO,

will please you a lot more than a Midi Guitar, since you'll be

working with

the guitar as a sound source, rather than a synthesizer.

Too expensive for me, I'm afraid!

Cheers,
Kevin
www.TheNettles.com

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., havant@e... wrote:

On 22 Aug 2001, at 23:58, kevinj@r... wrote:

Seems like a simple solution would be a midi guitar or a midi
pickup on a conventional guitar. With a midi pu you can move any
string's pitch up or down.

Thanks, Harry. I've looked at midi guitars but they're quite
expensive installed. For the prices asked for guitar synths, I can
buy a really good keyboard synth and play that instead.

Cheers,
Kevin
www.TheNettles.com

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Hackett, Jeff" <Jeff.M.Hackett@t...> wrote:

I believe Cort make a Joe Beck "Alto Guitar" which could
be what you're after.

Thanks, Jeff. Does Joe Beck play the alto with his fingers or with a
pick?

Cheers,
Kevin
www.TheNettles.com

jazz_guitar@... wrote:

Original Message:
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:47:27 -0700
From: havant@...
Subject: Re: Hybrid 2 String Bass 6 String Guitar

On 22 Aug 2001, at 23:58, kevinj@... wrote:

Seems like a simple solution would be a midi guitar or a midi
pickup on a conventional guitar. With a midi pu you can move any
string's pitch up or down.

The Roland GR30-33 units have a factory patch with the low A&E as a bass patch
an octave below the guitar's tuning. I play fingerstyle exclusively now, have
a GR-30 and I find it only somewhat interesting. Lenny Breau would
occasionally tune the low E to an A an octave below the normal A string, and it
was somewhat interesting, as well. He did some rather bizarre East Indian type
raga improv that way, letting the low A feed back, as well as some other open
strings, occasionally tapping the body to get things started. The dewd was
definitely a dewd, but just as definitely, weird. :)

Lenny's idol and mentor Chet Atkins (Lenny even named his son Chet), invented
the first sort of pitch shifter/octaver back in the late 50s to add bass to the
low strings. His device, which would double an octave lower only sounds below
a certain frequency, can be heard on the album "Chet Atkins At Home." The
device and Chet's practice routines of playing the various guitars that resided
in every room of his house is described in the liner notes of that album.

Les Paul would play a guitar track at double speed, then slow the tape down to
normal to produce a bass tone an ocave lower. Wow. In thinking about that,
realize he had to play the bass track for "Waiting For The Sunrise" at at least
240 bpm. Wow!!! (As an aside; AFAIK, Chet was only the 2nd person, the first
being Les Paul, to successfully record at home; both men selling millions of
copies of the recordings made there...)

I suppose you could use some heavy strings on the bottom if you don't want to
go to a 7 or 8 string, or electronic enhancements, but I wouldn't want to be
trapped by that. In essence, I think you'd just have a ukulele with a weird
sounding bass. Well, then you could do a killer jazz version of "My Little
Grass Shack" or "Aloha Oe Blues" or "Sweet Lailani..." Get a gig with Don
Ho... Nah..! ;)
<sorry, just had a BAD acid flashback> =8}

Regards,
...z


I don't have a solution; but I do admire the problem...

-- =---Seek the truth, speak the truth!---= --

L.G. "Zeek" Duff
WHAT!Productions!
Blue Wall Studio
303.485.9438
ICQ#35974686

To me, this seems kind of quick to judge.
Maybe Jimmy is busy listening to other stuff right now-piano voicings???, saxophone lines??? or whatever???. Maybe you misinterpreted his comment or he could of worded it a little better for you?
Ross

Metheny is not the Main Man......he's not even close.
I'm not sure who is, but he sure as hell isn't. His tunes are
good, but thats it!


"Happyness is a Dream, Maddness is Reality, but you've got a couple options" - A Wise Man

jazz_guitar@... wrote:

Original Message:
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:26:25 +1000
From: "Hackett, Jeff" <Jeff.M.Hackett@...>
Subject: RE: Anybody use an amp modeler for recording jazz?

I bought one of these a couple of months ago and use it for home recording.
It's a very impressive little unit and does have some very nice clean tones,
but think along the lines of Stevie Ray Vaughan or Andy Summers from the
Police days rather than Jimmy Bruno or Kenny Burrell. I've found you have to
dial in some effect such as reverb/delay/chorus before the thing starts to
sound good - and this may not be what you're after. Also, the J-Station is
very versatile with lots of heavily distorted rock and roll sounds, acoustic
sounds, and even some bass amp models to choose from. If you're after just
one sound it seems a shame not to spend all your money on just that sound
(then again I'm not aware of anything similar on the market targeted to the
jazz sound). I did manage to get what I thought was a reasonable jazz sound
out of it once, but it took quite a bit of experimenting and tweaking,
whereas good rock and blues sounds are easy to get right out of the box.

It depends on what you're doing of course, but for the most part, it's
generally best to set a sound you want to listen to while playing and actually
record a direct, clean, unaffected guitar. Effects can then be added at will,
and in the case of modern recording equipment, whether it's a Roland VS unit et
al, or computer based DAW (digital audio workstation), there is a large palette
of amp simulators, EQs, and spectral enhancers that will yield whatever you can
imagine and a lot more you can't. :)

Ideally, one would have good gear and record an unaffected instrument, and a
track from a mic in front of the amp, AND a line out from the amp and/or
effects unit(s). Occasionally, I've used a mix of all three in getting at
something interesting... The most maxed out I've gotten was using a VS-1680
synced to a Mac running Logic Audio Platinum, I recorded direct guitar on one
track, the stereo out of my effects unit, and from a GR-30, both the MIDI
output and the stereo audio out. On one song, I used a mix of the whole thing,
and had the MIDI add yet another guitar sound from a Roland keyboard. It was 7
tracks of overkill, but fun. I'll probably never do it again, either. ;)

Regards,
...z


A thing not worth doing isn't worth doing well...

-- =---Seek the truth, speak the truth!---= --

L.G. "Zeek" Duff
WHAT!Productions!
Blue Wall Studio
303.485.9438
ICQ#35974686

One more modern aproach would be to play one or more chords
over(or under) a pedal before resolving to the start of the
tune. The most common note to pedal would be the V of the
key. For example here's a possible intro for the tune
"Someday my prince will come" in the key of "Bb" using an
"F" pedal:

| Bb/F | Bb/F | B/F | B/F |
| C/F | C/F | Db/F | Db/F |
| Bb/F | Bb/F | B/F | B/F |
| C/F | C/F | Db/F | F7b9#5 ||
(Bbmaj.7)

Also, listening to piano trios is a good source of intro and
ending ideas.
Good luck,
Brad

Vitor wrote:

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., farnum@f... wrote:

I posted this question to the "justjazz.com" discussion group & got
no response, so I hope my luck is better here. My question is:

what

does it mean to play a "double diminished" riff/run? A pro friend
(Kenny Rankin's bass player of many years ago) mentioned that I
should know this concept, but he couldn't explain it well>....> Nick

Nick, I can't find a written reference to "double diminished" but I
have heard the term used to name the diminished scale that is
composed of half-step whole-step intervals. This scale is actually
two diminished chords one half-step apart. So the run would be:
B, C, D, Eb, F, Gb, G#, A, B, C.
Just my guess, Bill.

On Mon, Aug 20, 2001 at 01:28:34PM -0700, Mark Stanley wrote:

Is the Super 400 a Guild?
I am really into Bruno's tone. Is that what he
is playing?
I love my '54 Gibson 175 but I have feedback problems
and I wish it had a P90 in the bridge position so
I could get more than one tone out of it.
Any suggestions?

Rio Grande pickups makes a version of their P90 that drops into a Gibson
humbucker slot. I haven't heard their pickups before, but they seem to
have an excellent reputation (see the reviews on Harmony Central). That
might be a solution to your dilemma. I'm thinking about getting their
regular P90s for my own guitar.

-dave

Out Of Nowhere was written by Edward Heyman and Johnny Green
in 1931. It was first recorded by Guy Lombardo and his Royal
Canadians. Bing Crosby had a #1hit with the tune and sung it in a
number of movies in 1931. In the same year Ruth Etting had a hit
with it.

There are MANY fine recordings of the tune, including Parker,
Joe Pass, Jimmy Raney, Coleman Hawkins.


Guy Lombardo - from the web:
With his brother Carmen's singing, GUY LOMBARDO (b. London, Ontario,
June 19 1902; d. Houston, TX, Nov.5, 1977) and His Royal Canadians
created "the sweetest music this side of heaven." After setting the
trend for the dance bands of the 30's with skillful, swinging
performances, they became America's house band with their annual New
Year's Eve broadcast performances of "Auld Lang Syne." They also
appeared in several movies, including Many Happy Returns (1934) and
No Leave, No Love (1946), and the band stayed together until
Lombardo's death in 1977.

Check Also:


Alisdair MacRae Birch
Jazz Guitarist


--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Hackett, Jeff" <Jeff.M.Hackett@t...> wrote:

While I'm in posting to mailing lists mode - There was some talk

here

recently about the need to listen to original recordings of songs

to get an

idea of the conmposers original intent. Can someone fill me in on

who did

"Out of Nowhere" originally?

Thanks

On Sun, Aug 19, 2001 at 03:03:40PM -0700, Mark Stanley wrote:

I agree. There seems to be this stigma in jazz journalism
where the guitarists all have to look the same, play
archtops, wear fancy cloths, etc. I feel that Stern and
Holdsworth too, have fallen in between the cracks of rock
and jazz and are not given enough acclaim in the press by
either genre. A lot of people dont even consider Holdsworth
jazz. He plays over changes and comes up with amazing lines
that are certainly jazz influenced so I think it's jazz. Him
in Stern just dont fit into this Jazz guitar stereotype is
all.

It's not just jazz journalism... it's the record industry. I went looking
for some Holdsworth at Barnes and Noble today. He's filed under rock, not
jazz (and classics like IOU are long out of print). I wound up getting a
copy of David Torn's recently reissued "Cloud About Mercury", one of my
favorite albums when i got it on vinyl back in '87. I listened to it
twice in a row at work. It sounds as fresh today as it did 14 years ago.
Truly astounding playing and composition, and a great band to boot! (Bill
Bruford on acoustic and electronic percussion, Tony Levin on Stick, Mark
Isham on trumpet).

Some years back, David Torn referred to the music industry as an apartheid
system, where anything that didn't fall into their neat little categories
fell right through the cracks.

-dave

Check out Conklin Company (I think their URL was ) .
They are expertised on so-called extended range instruments. They also send
a catolog if you fill a form on their paage.

Hi,

I'm looking for a six-string guitar with the fifth and sixth strings
in the bass-guitar range and the first four string in regular guitar
range.

I don't go as low as you may want to, but my Takamine flat-top is fitted
with a 0.65 bass string (I've even used a 0.80) as 6th that I tune as low as
Bb. You may first try with two bass strings and see if you like it before
comitting to a new guitar.
Another option would be a 7 string guitar.
Yet another option would be to use a Roland VG8 processor, which, IMHO,
will please you a lot more than a Midi Guitar, since you'll be working with
the guitar as a sound source, rather than a synthesizer.
You may also want to check Ralph Novak, who builds the 8 string guitars
Charlie Hunter uses, but I'm pretty sure it won't be cheap.
Patricio Murphy
NAN - Buenos Aires, Argentina

While I'm in posting to mailing lists mode - There was some talk here
recently about the need to listen to original recordings of songs to get an
idea of the conmposers original intent. Can someone fill me in on who did
"Out of Nowhere" originally?

Thanks

I bought one of these a couple of months ago and use it for home recording.
It's a very impressive little unit and does have some very nice clean tones,
but think along the lines of Stevie Ray Vaughan or Andy Summers from the
Police days rather than Jimmy Bruno or Kenny Burrell. I've found you have to
dial in some effect such as reverb/delay/chorus before the thing starts to
sound good - and this may not be what you're after. Also, the J-Station is
very versatile with lots of heavily distorted rock and roll sounds, acoustic
sounds, and even some bass amp models to choose from. If you're after just
one sound it seems a shame not to spend all your money on just that sound
(then again I'm not aware of anything similar on the market targeted to the
jazz sound). I did manage to get what I thought was a reasonable jazz sound
out of it once, but it took quite a bit of experimenting and tweaking,
whereas good rock and blues sounds are easy to get right out of the box.

I can't compare it to the POD as I haven't tried one, but I noticed that Ted
Vieira, who regularly contributes to this list mentions the POD on the
equipment list on his web site - maybe he'll have some comments?

Anyway - I don't think it's the ideal unit for direct recording a good jazz
sound, but it's not too shabby and you may well find it's about the best
you'll get in this sort of thing anyway. Hope this helps.

Jeff Hackett

This will be my last post, because I will unsubscribe after it is delivered.

Why?

Too much vituperative rubbish is crowding out constructive and helpful
material. I'll miss the few good posts by some top rate people who I have
come to know through the group. I read about them in Just Jazz Guitar.

The other day I came home, after only 8 hours, to find over 40 messages,
mostly slamming great players and other petty remarks that were a total
waste of time. I'll be better of practicing and growing my own sound that
sorting through emails.

I've been lucky to have met many great guitarists since I started playing as
a kid 48 years ago, from Barney, Tal, and Johnny Smith, up to today's
curent family of players. I'm amazed at some of the things said here and I
wonder if some of the writers have ever spent time with the players they are
knocking. Beyond this, I'm not going to pick up the mud.

On 22 Aug 2001, at 23:58, kevinj@... wrote:

Seems like a simple solution would be a midi guitar or a midi
pickup on a conventional guitar. With a midi pu you can move any
string's pitch up or down.

Harry

Hi,

I'm looking for a six-string guitar with the fifth and sixth strings
in the bass-guitar range and the first four string in regular guitar
range.

Anyone know of such an animal? Acoustic or electric okay, but I'm a
player, not a collector so I'm not interested in spending a zillion
bucks.

Thanks!

Cheers,
Kevin