开云体育

At 12:35 AM 8/16/01 +0000, you wrote:

Hi David,

Could you explain this formula that Mick gave you to the
group here? Maybe that will help me get a handle on whether
I need to buy Goodchord.

The method involves the consistant movement of voices based
on the root movement involved. There's a different formula
for cycle 3 (movement up a third) than ,say, cycle 6.

Try this:

Take a chord voicing that consists of any 4 part 7th chord.
You can choose one any of the permutations that you want.
For cycle 6, movement up a 6th (C to Amin) the 1, 3, and 5
stays the same. The 7th ALWAYS comes down a space of 2
steps. This will yield an A min chord voiced in a way where
a minimum of voice movement has been used. Try it. It will
cycle around the diatonic harmonized scale until it returns
you to the starting point.

Do this for major and other scales. There are different
formulae for the different intervals, and yet others for the
other intervals like triads over bass notes and 4 part 4ths.

How do you use this? Every time you go from one chord to
another, it will have an interval that reflects the root
movement. When you know these cycles, it will be second
nature to choose the chord voicing that lets you move
smoothly and with the greatest control of the individual
voices being lead.

As far as working all these out on your own, yes you can do
it but I found that the time writing these out was enormous
and my time was better spent taking the book, opening it to
a page and starting to run these through.

And yes, they work well for pianists too. As a matter of
fact, some voicings will work better for keys than on guitar
where intervals are shaped in funny and sadistically painful
ways at times.

Does this shed any light? I'm happy to explain anything as
far as my feeble understanding goes.

David

I think that Methenys tunes are really in depth and sort of
sound track like (thus why he does so many film scores). I
really have trouble getting into "his" sound through. That
straight tone with the chorus just makes me want to go nuts.
Its cool at first, but by the end of the cd..........its not
good. But thats just my opinion. I prefer guys like Mick
Goodrick, John Abercrombie, Bill Frisell over Metheny. You
know the guys that know how to roll the treble ON a little.
JOhn



"Happyness is a Dream, Maddness is Reality, but you've got
a couple options" - A Wise Man

Mark: you are right that it is time to let the
Metheney/Bruno thread drop. Besides, I agree with most
of what is in your last posts except I don't think
using the word "chops" is of any consequence. If we
would rather use the term technique, fine. But I agree
that there is more to consider. But of the jazzers, I
found very few just blaze for the sake of chops. I'll
check out your cd on Amazon. Glad to hear you checked
out Bruno. He is really a very tasty and exciting
player. Randy Groves

=====
J. Randall Groves, Ph.D. ("Rando")
Professor of Humanities
Ferris State University
groves@...
bebopguitar@...

[Cross posted to Band-In-A-Box Group]

Although not directly related to Jazz Guitar, I wonder if
anyone has had experience with using the miniMusic Mobile
Software Pack for Palm Handheld. The tool looks very
useful for guitarist on the go and for teaching.

I'm particulalrly interested in using it for teaching
and playing Midi files etc.



What have your experiences been with this software ?
How much can you store on a Palm device ?
What is the best Palm device for this software ?
What about miniMusic BugBand ?
Any other comments ?

Alisdair MacRae Birch
Jazz Guitarist

In the absence of an official Polytone website Murch Music
(who sell Polytone Amps) have put together a page of information
on Polytones, which might be of interest:



[I earn nothing from this!]


Alisdair MacRae Birch
Jazz Guitarist

Hi!!
I'm a Portuguese guitarrist and i'm thinking in going to study at
the Amsterdam Conservatory (Holland). I think the most well
known guitar teacher there is a guy called Jesse Van Ruller.
Does anyone have some informations about this guy? Or the
other teachers of the Amsterdam Conservatory? I have a friend
studing (world music) at the Rotterdam Concervatory, and he
says that the jazz in Amsterdam is in a high level, but he says it's
very tradicional too. The jazz that i like is more modern stuff,
people like Mick Goodrick, Kurt Rosenwinkel (my
favorite guitar player), and other stuff like Julian Arguelles, etc...
I dont know if Amsterdam is the most indicated for me, but
anyway it
is the only high level place that i can afford.
Thanks!!!!

Vitor.
Portugal.

I paged through that book at the Borders in Allentown PA this evening. You
should try borders.com and see if they can get it. I almost bought it on
the list's recomendation, but I have 3 Jody Fisher books to work on (since
I'm a beginning jazzer.) :)

-=-=-=-=-
Born to Fish, Forced to Work.

Tony
bonkrz@... tonykennedy@...

I want to make one more post on this subject and then i am
done with it. I feel this is becoming about trying to change
people's opinions which I am not trying to do.

Randy Groves wrote:

So Jim Hall, John McGlaughlin, Barney Kessel, ntc.

ever wrote anything good? ANd none of the rockers
who
played guitar (Lennon/McCartney) ever wrote anything
good? So much for that point.

This is not a rock forum. If you want my perspective on rock
guitar playing/singing and songwriting, go to Tower or
Amazon.com and buy my new record (Living Machine). It is very
Beatlesque/NIN rock w/ a little Tom Petty and Holdsworth
thrown in.

I love Jim Hall and John Mclaughlin and the latter has
written some amazing music. Kessel has never done much for
me personally. Maybe someday I'll get into him.

Randy Groves wrote:

On chops: You seem to have a issue with them. They
are
just one of several things to consider in evaluating
a
guitarist. You certainly can't ignore them,
especially
since so much other stuff depends on them. On people
who use the term, well, that would be just about
every
living jazz guitarist, so that point is refuted as
well.

When I analyze a musician I study their musicianship. I
think most people use the word "chops" to describe speed. In
that case, Charlie Parker had a lot of "chops". I dont care
about that. I care about the notes he played and what they
meant and the feeling he played the with.

Anyone who still uses that word is stuck in the 80's, in my
opinion. Not every living guitarist uses that term. Just the
imature ones who have not lived a musician's life outside of
music school. Maybe I do have an issue with that word. I
judge my ability to execute my ideas on my instrument as
just that. My ability, and if I'm coming up w/ creative
ideas and doing so in a musical and interesting way to me.
The day I wake up and say, "Boy, I really got some hot
chops", is the day I regress into the state of a
pre-pubescent moron who would be much better off serving the
world in some other way besides making music.

[SNIP}

-Mark

-----Mensagem original-----
De: Patricio Murphy <murphy@...>
Para: jazz_guitar@... <jazz_guitar@...>
Data: Sbado, 18 de Agosto de 2001 16:18
Assunto: RE: [jazz_guitar] Re: The difference between Jazz & Blues

harmonies borrowed from any kind of musical influences. Yes, even
classical music from the classical era (Bach, etc) or Romantic era
(Debussy, Ravel) and modern era (Stravinsky, Schonenberg). Jazz is
still evolving as you can see

I always thought Claude Debussy (and his peers) was a member of the
Impressionist School (not the Romantic). In fact, as the story goes, the
unpredictability of his harmonies and his habit of extending chords -
something the Romantic School would loathe - may have inspired some early
bebop luminaries. Anybody agrees?

I agree. I think impressionist music in general and Debussy's music in
particular inspired lots of modern jazz pianists. The whole quartal thing
associated with McCoy Tyner in the 60s was already happening in "classical"
music in the end of the XIX century. Among popular musica styles, Jazz not
only was able to draw from that, but develop in ways classical music has

not

been able.
And, BTW, Bach doesn't belong to the classical period (a quite short period
where you would put Mozart, Haydn, and early Beethoven), but to the Baroque
period, and I'm still amazes at how, 300 years later, his views on melodic
development and voice leading still inspire lots of performers and
composers.
Patricio Murphy
NAN - Buenos Aires, Argentina

It's important to remember that brazilian music has a lot of the romantic
and impressionistic eras. Tom jobim used a lot of chords that debussy and
chopin used in their music. Sometimes people called him Tom "chopin".

Rodd

My point about Phillip Glass is that usually
the innovators get a lot of slack, like Monk did
in his day. Hence the phrase "you can tell who the
leader is by the amout of arrows in his butt", a
metaphor
for people shooting negative comments his way, etc.
Does that make sense? Maybe I'm saying it wrong.
-M

Well first I want to say that I have just heard
Jimmy Bruno and I find him really great. A little
like Lenny Breau and other classic players. He's got
great tone and can play his butt off.
I still would not call him innovative.

I think your comment about Metheny is more that
people sound like him. Indeed he has infulences you
can
hear.

When I said what I said about guitarists that cant
write well, I was stricktly talking about instrumental
music. The one's like Lennon/Mcartney are a complete
different world of music and they were the best. No
argument
about that. Hendirix was another great composer.

I love blues and find that style of playing incredibly
great
and valuable, but jazz is something that has
splintered off from that form as we have already
discussed.
So please, do not misconstrue my comments into
something
negative about blues. I'll take Howlin' Wolf over most
jazz
artists any day.
-Mark



--- Randy Groves <bebopguitar@...> wrote:

From: concord_records2001@...

To celebrate the release of Jimmy Bruno's smokin'
new Concord release Midnight Blue on August 14th
you can bid to win a private lesson with Jimmy in
his hometown of Brotherly Love- Philadelphia!

What's second prize? Two lessons with Jimmy? :-)

Hello! This is my first excursion into the group.

I wouldn't really consider myself a jazz guitarist ... much more a
blues kind of guy ... but I love jazz guitar and hope to learn more
about it.

My favorite guitarists?

Robben Ford
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Kenny Burrell
Sonny Landreth
Ronnie Earl
Leo Kottke
Dave Specter


Here's a link to my gear page:



Hope to get to know some of you in the coming days/weeks/months.

Mark: you wrote:

Player's are remembered for being unique.

Well, that's one thing that matters. How well the
uniqueness is pulled counts too. And there is
expressiveness. But there is unique and there is
unique. Some might say most everyone we have talked
about is stuck in diatonia. That's true, but the
question is whether they do something interesting with
it. There is a parallel discussion of the blues on
this list. Do we throw out all blues players because
they aren't exploring harmony to a greater degree?
None of this is referring to Metheney by the way, it
is simply a general point about aesthetics.

Referring to Metheney, you wrote:

Pat Metheny does not sound like any other guitar
player

Not exactly, but there are some who do what he does
harmonically, some who have his sound etc. This
doesn't make him derivative or commonplace, it is
simply just being sober in our analyses. One doesn't
have to do something brand new in order to be good.

You also wrote:

You wont, because most guitarists, especially jazz
ones, cant write
worth a wooden pickle. They are all concerned about
"chops" and by the
way, people who seem to use that word never have
any.

So Jim Hall, John McGlaughlin, Barney Kessel, ntc.
ever wrote anything good? ANd none of the rockers who
played guitar (Lennon/McCartney) ever wrote anything
good? So much for that point.

On chops: You seem to have a issue with them. They are
just one of several things to consider in evaluating a
guitarist. You certainly can't ignore them, especially
since so much other stuff depends on them. On people
who use the term, well, that would be just about every
living jazz guitarist, so that point is refuted as
well.

I didn't get your point about Phillip Glass, who has
done some pretty cool stuff, no matter what he is like
to work with.

Randy Groves



=====
J. Randall Groves, Ph.D. ("Rando")
Professor of Humanities
Ferris State University
groves@...
bebopguitar@...

Paul: On the Metheney archtop issue: I stand
corrected, but the sound on many of the works had
enough alteration so that there wasn't much trace of
the archtop, hence my mistake. Again, I think Metheney
is a great player, and that he has an impressive body
of work, and that he is in the "pantheon" and has had
lots of imitators. I just criticized the sound. But
again, I grant that it was a successful move career
wise. It was also innovative at the time. People were
just beginning to explore the electronic sounds one
could get from guitars.

On the Diorio influence: I know Metheney heard Diorio
early on, and I can hear the similarities (backed by
charts/transcriptions), so I conclude there was
influence. In most academic fora, that is pretty much
enough to do the trick. Best of all, of course, would
be Metheney himself (although artists' statements
aren't always reliable). I wonder if he has ever
discussed Diorio. Anyone know? Not that the Diorio
influence is all there is to Metheney, but I do hear
some of it in there. By the way, I happen to like the
wide interval stuff, so none of this is meant
critically. Nor is the supposition that Metheney had
influences any criticism. I was just tracing back the
theory behind some of his playing.

Randy Groves

=====
J. Randall Groves, Ph.D. ("Rando")
Professor of Humanities
Ferris State University
groves@...
bebopguitar@...

As one of the moderators of the group I thought I'd add my
two cents to this. I approved the Concord Jazz (Bruno) message.

The message was approved because all the proceeds of the
Ebay promotion are to benefit the Jazz Musician's Emergency
Fund, a non-profit organization dedicated to assisting jazz
artists with medical and financial emergencies.



I felt it would be of interest to many on the list and it is
going to a worthwhile cause.

Regarding, the name of the album it is highly likely that it
was chosen by the record company and judging by the
controversy it has produced, a very good choice by them!
(They've got everyone talking about it!)

Also, the membership in this group is large, and most of the
well known (living!) Jazz Guitar players subscribe. Whether
they choose to post or not is up to them, but I personally
know that they read what is posted.

So remember when you post remarks are about their playing,
they are hearing them! Like most things in life kind
comments and constructive criticism will get probably get you
further than just expressing a negative viewpoint. Everyone
is entitled to their viewpoint, just be aware that what you
post is read by the world!

A gentle reminder: Criticism of people personally will
not be tolerated. Discuss or critique the subject not the
person.


Best Wishes

Alisdair MacRae Birch
Jazz Guitarist

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., Randy Groves <
bebopguitar@y...> wrote:

Jazzers: Metheney is fairly innovative (I just don't
like his sound--get an archtop! please!

Randy,

Pat Metheny has been playing an archtop for his
whole career, except on the guitar synth stuff. He
started with a Gibson ES-175, and after 20 years
of attempts by Ibanez, was finally given a
prototype that he liked better -- an Ibanez
_archtop_. This is what he uses now. You may like
his tone on his latest album better because he is
finally letting some of the treble frequencies come
out of his guitar.

--I will try

the trio cd though), although all that wide-interval
fourths and fifths stuff he gets from Joe Diorio.

Do you have any evidence for that?

P.S. I just got another Jimmy Bruno CD -- the
1996 one with Joey DeFrancesco -- and it smokes!
_Very_ soulful playing.

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Deolindo Casimiro" <
dcasimiro@h...> wrote:

From: "Sebastian" <jazz_1971@y...>
Reply-To: jazz_guitar@y...
To: jazz_guitar@y...
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Re: The difference between Jazz & Blues
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 07:08:22 -0000

Jazz was more of an offshoot of blues, but it had a mixture of
different musical influences, ragtime, swing, popular tunes in the 20s
onwards, latin, etc. While jazz may use the I-IV-V progressions, it
is not limited to that. There are rhythm changes such as I-vi-IV-V7
kind of progression. Not to mention the use of colourful chords,
harmonies borrowed from any kind of musical influences. Yes, even
classical music from the classical era (Bach, etc) or Romantic era
(Debussy, Ravel) and modern era (Stravinsky, Schonenberg). Jazz is
still evolving as you can see

I always thought Claude Debussy (and his peers) was a member of the
Impressionist School (not the Romantic).

Correct. This person didn't use the usual historical
categories. Bach is Baroque; Mozart and
Beethoven are Classical; Brahms, Chopin, Wagner,
and Tchaikowsky are Romantic; Ravel and
Debussy are Impressionistic (quite anti-Romantic,
in fact).

But the point is jazz draws on all these influences,
and on blues and show tunes . . .

Probably the moderator felt that this was enough on topic to be of interest
to members here; I know I feel that it is OK.

I think Jimmy himself said on the usenet discussion newsgroup
rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz, that indeed Concord records has a style and
sound they want him to play. That is the price to pay for a recording
contract with that label. You could search for posts to that group by
Bruno, he is regular there, and find it I'm sure.

dave

ps. I understand your point of view re: the name of the album. I don't
think it is copyrighted, or can be. Multiple books have the same name,
multiple movies too.
But I don't care if he uses the same name. Is it callous disrespect on
Bruno's part or just a name he felt appropriate to his own tune? Or is it
an attempt to cash in on a famous title, to confuse the buying public? I
doubt the latter.

harmonies borrowed from any kind of musical influences. Yes, even
classical music from the classical era (Bach, etc) or Romantic era
(Debussy, Ravel) and modern era (Stravinsky, Schonenberg). Jazz is
still evolving as you can see

I always thought Claude Debussy (and his peers) was a member of the
Impressionist School (not the Romantic). In fact, as the story goes, the
unpredictability of his harmonies and his habit of extending chords -
something the Romantic School would loathe - may have inspired some early
bebop luminaries. Anybody agrees?

I agree. I think impressionist music in general and Debussy's music in
particular inspired lots of modern jazz pianists. The whole quartal thing
associated with McCoy Tyner in the 60s was already happening in "classical"
music in the end of the XIX century. Among popular musica styles, Jazz not
only was able to draw from that, but develop in ways classical music has not
been able.
And, BTW, Bach doesn't belong to the classical period (a quite short period
where you would put Mozart, Haydn, and early Beethoven), but to the Baroque
period, and I'm still amazes at how, 300 years later, his views on melodic
development and voice leading still inspire lots of performers and
composers.
Patricio Murphy
NAN - Buenos Aires, Argentina