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Dave Woods

Greetings everyone,
I don't want to start a sort of dispute, my own experience in the field of Jazz
is very limited, but i'd say stretching exercises strike me as being pointless.
I'd say that every sort of practice routine has to be music oriented. I don't do
exercises, i just warm up [this is essential as the absence of warming up is
proved to lead to serious physical injury] with some melodic lines, or bop
phrases that come across my mind, i also include moving to odd chord positions,
very slowly at first, or whatever, but none of the ?left finger one fret this or
that?, i think that the best practice is that in which you reharse, that is,
you're preparing yourself for a real life situation, gig oriented, i'd say. It's
easy to fall into a kind of ?exercise trap?, which is quite pointless. Music
isn't gymnastics. It's the quality of the expression that counts, just that. And
eventually not having many physical barriers in the process.


Cheers, and please bear in mind that English is not my first language,
础苍诲谤é




________________________________





Greetings,

I'm an older player who's developed some arthritis in my fretting hand wrist. I

use a soft, squeezable ball to exercise my hand and it helps. Before I'd use
one of those "hand exercisers" to build strength, flexibility, etc., I'd check
with my doctor or research joint overuse on the internet (e.g., musicians' hand
problems). Some guitarists get carried away with hard exercises. There
are established limits to any kind of exercise. Overuse can manifest in later
life. Beware.

RonV
CT/USA






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A few years ago I used a hand exerciser and developed
thick, stodgy, slow fingers after a couple of months.

The best finger exercise is scales - which is also good
for ear training, I suggest that students also sing
scales as they practise them.

Will

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "pecpec" <p_crist@...> wrote:

--- In jazz_guitar@..., Ron Becker <ron45@> wrote:

I am sucking big time at this. It seems to be taking for ever to
learn to accurately change from one chord which is a little new to
another which is new to me. How slow is slow? I am analyzing the
process in terms of common tones, which fingers can remain as
anchors, how the other fingers move and what their target note is.
These are fairly easy four note chords without long stretches mostly.
What else should I be doing. I am not yet trying to maintain a tempo
i.e. play to a brushes track with appropriate feel. It is the
accuracy of placement not remembering what the chord looks or sounds
like. I notice right away when a note is missing. There are only
four! I know it's helping my ear but it's bruising my ego.

This is way harder that single note lines - physically and mentally. When I started with a teacher he wrote out tunes with chords on most every note and had me work on playing them in rhythm for the next week. I did this for a LONG time before ever getting into scales and arps and integrating them into chord/melody solos. Try the tennis ball in your coat pocket trick now that coat season is back. Squeeze frequently with your left hand. Also practice at times on an acoustic metal string guitar - preferably with extra crappy action. I think it is really more of a physical hurdle than mental.

Another potential help is to play a single note w/ just one finger and see how little pressure it takes to play the note. Try it on different frets and strings. It takes a lot less pressure than you would think. Dave Woods has a file on this:

Check out his site if the link is trashed. The file is called "left hand right hand.pdf"

-- Mike V.

--- In jazz_guitar@..., Ron Becker <ron45@...> wrote:

I am sucking big time at this. It seems to be taking for ever to
learn to accurately change from one chord which is a little new to
another which is new to me.

Ron,

Do you have an example or two with the fingerings you are using?

I am analyzing the
process in terms of common tones, which fingers can remain as
anchors, how the other fingers move and what their target note is.
These are fairly easy four note chords without long stretches
mostly.

Common tones help, but I find that visualizing where the 3rd finger needs to go, and then placing the 3rd finger first helps quite a bit. Also try releasing all of the fingers on your left hand. I suspect that the difficulties are occurring due to the mechanics of the human hand. These techniques work for me. Give them a whirl and see if it helps.

When I first started out, I came across a finger independence exercise that is similar to what your are trying to do. If you're interested, I can describe it later. For most of the exercises, it can make you feel like you are trying to play with your feet. Overall, the exercise was OK. You get better practical mileage by playing common progressions (e.g. II-V, I-V7b9/II-II,-V,-I, etc. ) with good voice leading.

Hope this helps,

-- Mike V.

--- In jazz_guitar@..., Ron Becker <ron45@...> wrote:

This is a link to the ball thing I was describing earlier. It says
it's therapeutic for carpal tunnel [ not my complaint] and tennis
elbow. Which is closer to my problem but pain is to the outside of
the elbow. Any one use hand exercisers? Or tried this one?

Ron

You might want to look at this old thread:



--
Alisdair MacRae Birch
Guitarist/Bassist/Educator/Arranger

Hi Ron,

So, is it wiser to use what movement capability I have to practice
more or try to strengthen my forearm and hand muscles in addition to
practicing?

Spending more time with guitar in hand will help you the most. It's not just about strength, but also about independence, coordination of LH and RH, and even eye/ear/hand coordination. It's the whole process, and dedicated hand exercises can actually do more harm than good (however, proper hand stretching exercises are extremely valuable, as are back stretching exercises for musicians).

As for "how slow is slow?" - how slow can you go without falling off the chair? Start painfully slow, and with each rep, increase the mm by 2 notches. Perhaps the next day, start one notch faster as your slowest speed, and with each rep, agaim increase by 2 notches.

As for the "one chord to the next thing", we've discussed how to get from C maj to F maj so many times now over the phone that I really din't think you had to bring it up here. :-)

best always,
Bobby

Ron;

I have a similar problem with pain in the muscles in the outer part of the forearm near the elbow. There are two things that seem to help. One is a light (< 5 lb.) dumbbell with standard bicep and tricep exercises along with some wrist curls. The other, believe it or not, is more regular practice, but never too much at one time. It seems to build up the strength.
However if the problem is inflammation, you should be careful as more exertion would likely make it worse.

George


George Hess
ghess1000@...

Jimmy is a fabulous teacher. I took private lessons with him, but he had to stop giving private lessons when the Website with online lessons occupied so much of his time. Now that the Website is in limbo for a little while he might be open to some private students. Even a few lessons with a great jazz teacher might get you off to a good start.

If Jimmy is not giving private lessons again, I'm sure he'd be happy to refer you to good people. E-mail him at jimmy@... and I'm sure he'll respond to you.

Rick

On Nov 10, 2010, at 4:04 PM, pecpec wrote:

--- In jazz_guitar@..., Ron Becker <ron45@...> wrote:
This is way harder that single note lines - physically and
mentally. When I started with a teacher he wrote out tunes with
chords on most every note and had me work on playing them in rhythm
for the next week. I did this for a LONG time before ever getting
into scales and arps and integrating them into chord/melody solos.
Try the tennis ball in your coat pocket trick now that coat season
is back. Squeeze frequently with your left hand. Also practice at
times on an acoustic metal string guitar - preferably with extra
crappy action. I think it is really more of a physical hurdle than
mental.

I currently have bronze acoustic guitar 13/56 on my Eastman 910
archtop. Action is about medium. Pretty manly for these aging hands.
I find I have the most trouble not too surprisingly below the third
fret. The nut height is about right. And it is the hardest thing I've
tried to do. Accuracy is the issue so far. I only currently have two
tunes I'm working on that have chords in the first fret area.
Living and playing outside the box.

--- In jazz_guitar@..., Ron Becker <ron45@...> wrote:

I am sucking big time at this. It seems to be taking for ever to
learn to accurately change from one chord which is a little new to
another which is new to me. How slow is slow? I am analyzing the
process in terms of common tones, which fingers can remain as
anchors, how the other fingers move and what their target note is.
These are fairly easy four note chords without long stretches mostly.
What else should I be doing. I am not yet trying to maintain a tempo
i.e. play to a brushes track with appropriate feel. It is the
accuracy of placement not remembering what the chord looks or sounds
like. I notice right away when a note is missing. There are only
four! I know it's helping my ear but it's bruising my ego.

This is way harder that single note lines - physically and mentally. When I started with a teacher he wrote out tunes with chords on most every note and had me work on playing them in rhythm for the next week. I did this for a LONG time before ever getting into scales and arps and integrating them into chord/melody solos. Try the tennis ball in your coat pocket trick now that coat season is back. Squeeze frequently with your left hand. Also practice at times on an acoustic metal string guitar - preferably with extra crappy action. I think it is really more of a physical hurdle than mental.

You may also want to contact a university or community college near you,
and ask for a referral. Those places usually have adjunct faculty who teach
privately, and they could give you some leads. Taking a lesson from
someone like JB can be expensive, and probably worth it if you're already pretty
advanced. Since you call yourself a "newbie", you'd probably be better off
with someone who can get you started on the right track.

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

I'm in Philly too (Northern 'burbs anyway). Yes Jimmy Bruno gives lessons in person for, understandably, major $$$. Probably valuable if you're good enough to take it in.
Maybe valuable to get started right, without the bad habits that I'm certain I developed
as i practiced and played, largely by myself.

Other thatn this, I know of no local teachers. By the way, can you stage yourself: How newbie are you? Chords? Comp? Read? etc.

Al

--- In jazz_guitar@..., Ron Becker <ron45@...> wrote:

This is a link to the ball thing I was describing earlier. It says
it's therapeutic for carpal tunnel [ not my complaint] and tennis
elbow. Which is closer to my problem but pain is to the outside of
the elbow. Any one use hand exercisers? Or tried this one?

My teacher advised carrying around a tennis ball and squeezing for left (fretboard) hand strength.

There are some pretty cool jazzy Christmas albums out there. "Jingle Bell
Jazz" is pretty good, and there are others. Last year, I did a big band
Christmas gig where we played "We Three Kings" in 11/8, it was very cool...

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

Try 6/8 time...
I also agree with Juan, the fun is often in the reharmonization. Although
too much dissonance in a Christmas carol, might upset some people.
Scott

On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:27:42 -0500 (EST) JVegaTrio@... writes:

Oh, I dunno, I think you could do some good stuff w/ "Joy to the
World".
Try it w/ a bossa nova beat, too. Far as the harmony goes, that's
where
the fun is, trying to reharmonize the tune to give it a jazzy
feel.

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega


In a message dated 11/10/2010 10:47:29 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
_doghouseband2001@... (mailto:doghouseband2001@...)
writes:


I was just trying to fit "joy to the world" to a jazz beat over the

weekend, and
it just didn't work. I guess because it is so very much a C major
song,
that it
just wouldn't work as a jazz tune. I tried it over an "orchestra"
beat
(think
of a movie score, or a disney film) and it worked much better.

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Slight veer: Hall of Fame Baseball player Ted Williams used to carry around one or two lacrosse balls that he used to strengthen his hands by squeezing. Seemed to work all right for him, if his record is an indication.
Brad

Yes, I guess throwing some sevenths?into it to?get it out of the strict C major
feel?? Maybe because I was just playing the melody line, that it was hard to get
jazzy over.? The bass line was more or less following the melody.? Playing over
some cords, which are more "outside"?would be easier - I suppose.? In the end,
the "classical film-score" kinda beat worked well enough that I am going to
leave it.? It made for some "soaring, magestical" type major scale solos which
is fun too.

BTW, the song Winter Wonderland seems? to work pretty well as a jazzy or even
straight rock song.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh, I dunno, I think you could do some good stuff w/ "Joy to the World".
Try it w/ a bossa nova beat, too. Far as the harmony goes, that's where
the fun is, trying to reharmonize the tune to give it a jazzy feel.

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega


In a message dated 11/10/2010 10:47:29 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
_doghouseband2001@... (mailto:doghouseband2001@...)
writes:


I was just trying to fit "joy to the world" to a jazz beat over the
weekend, and
it just didn't work. I guess because it is so very much a C major song,
that it
just wouldn't work as a jazz tune. I tried it over an "orchestra" beat
(think
of a movie score, or a disney film) and it worked much better.