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I use the Dunlop 206's also.

My history has been that I've studied with different teachers and always adopted their picking techniques and pick.

In retrospect, this didn't work so well. I know how to pick a couple of different ways, but I'm not very good at any of them.

The teacher who got me onto 206's no longer uses them. I still do. Go figure.

I recently (two years now) tried flatwounds for the first time in many years. I find a noticeable falling off in brightness between the G and D strings. I'm going to go back to whatever I was using before, which I can't remember ... I think it was half round or something. I had bought a zillion sets in bulk from Subway in Berkeley -- they had big boxes, each containing one gauge -- and you just picked what you wanted. I used them for years but I don't think I ever new what they were.

Then, some buzz got me to try Thomastiks.

Hi Jim,

I looked up the word facetious a long time ago, and the definition I remember was "untimely humor."

Well, then plug in the word "sarcastic" in its place.

I don't know who finds what funny or not, but I know that anyone who took the phrase literally could only have done so intentionally. Actually, the word which comes to my mind is "sad" - sad that the only problem some musicians have with this issue is the words someone parses to discuss it. The rest just isn't worthy of thought, apparently.

I'm wondering, actually, that if Good Ol' Angelo and I didn't "cat fight" about it, would any of the responses which were posted today have been posted. Angelo, I thank you for your forwardness and honesty. I don't agree with you by about 180-degrees quite often, but I can always count on your thoughtfulness and candor.

Alisdair, as always I thank you for having brought up what may be the most important issue facing musicians and the music business ever. When James Petrillo first organized musicians back in 1919, theft of works was common. Movie studios even blatantly pilfered lots of it for backing tracks of movies which made them fortunes, and the courts did little to protect even Stravinsky from it . Well, here we go again, it seems. You are knowledgeable and tireless in your desire to help your fellow musician, and you are an inspiration to me.

Dave, I truly hope you don't give up that fight, which as you say, you apparently have. It's not about crying in any beer, it's about trying to let other musicians who care about their art know they are not alone, and that music is a worthy profession. When you first began your struggle over the issue, you were a mouse fighting an elephant. You still may be, I dunno, but to concede to the geeks is not an answer, IMO.

I'm sure Gene Simmons could care a rat's ass over what other musicians face and how they face it, but I'm still glad he's out there taking on the fight, if only for himself. After all, if he doesn't care for himself, it's for sure (even from the responses I've seen from musicians on and not on this list) nobody else will.

best,
Bobby

I'm looking for the sheet music to "Promenade Sentimentale" from the movie, Diva

My search results have led me an "out of print" status ....

Anyone have any clues for this piece of music.

There is another French piece with the same title by Nans Bart.

The composer of the piece I'm looking for is Vladimir Cosma

John Amato
Isaiah 55:11

I couldn't agree enough about the choice of picks and strings. I use heavy Dunlop JAZZ II's and have for years. The size is pretty close to ideal for me although I wish they were slightly bigger and I love the material they are made from. To further reduce the effects of the material I also don't hold picks very tightly.

As I think John Amato said earlier before I would get the issue of what strings I liked long before I started switching out pickups. Depending on the guitar I use different strings as well.

I'd also like to recommend the new Curt Mangan strings. I have nothing to do with the company so this is an honest recommendation. I have only used them on my acoustic and nylon string so far but I am impressed with them enough to try them on everything. It says on the package that they have some sort of patented process or something like that but I don't know about that. What I have heard is that the basic concept of these strings is too raise the standards on materials and specs as the primary way to improve the quality of their strings. I have no way of knowing if that is true though. What I do know is that they sound good out of the box, stretch less and last at least twice as long as anything I have used previously.

I haven't tried their flatwounds but I will in the next few months. They also have a set of coated strings for acoustics which a friend of mine claims sound better than any other coated acoustic string. I've got a set ready to go when the uncoated set wears out.








Brian




From: JVegaTrio@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:40 PM
To: jazz_guitar@...
Subject: [jazz_guitar] Picks



Hi Elliot,

Choice of pick matters. A lot. I used to "make" my own picks by buying
extra-heavy Fender standard picks, and reshaping them to the smaller "jazz
pick" shape so I could get the shape I wanted with the thickness I wanted.
I used to keep all sorts of picks around (as I suspect most of us here do),
but I just don't do that anymore. I tried some picks made by a fellow who
used to post here; he made them out of minerals, exotic wood, and other
stuff, but they broke, or didn't sound good, and I tried felt picks, and
something called the Tech Pick, which was made of metal. All of these
definitely had an effect on the sound.

When I started studying w/ Tom Hynes (a great player/teacher here in L.A.),
he hipped me to the Dunlop 206 picks, which are quite thick, and have a
shape similar to the one I liked. Problem solved. I've been playing these
for more than 5 years, & really like 'em. I'll even go so far as to say
that new 206s sound different than used ones, because the texture of the
picks changes over time with use. It's subtle, but I can feel it & hear it,
though I don't pay all that much att'n to it.

Only time I have an "issue" is when I play funk stuff, where a thinner pick
would probably make things easier, but I play funk/rock/blues w/ .012s, so
it's just another thing to deal with, lol.

Some rock/blues players, like Brian May and Billy Gibbons use coins, etc,
as picks, giving them a unique sound. On the jazz side of the music, two
words that make it plain what you use to strike the strings does indeed make
a difference: Wes Montgomery. 'Nuff said. :)

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega



In a message dated 10/19/2010 11:52:07 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
optics22000@... writes:

Roger,
OK, how much (and why) does choice of pick matter? I'm not arguing that it
doesn't, I just want to know how many people think the pick makes a
significant difference in tone.
I made some picks for a friend who couldn't find what he wanted, these
ended up being about 2 mm thick, rather small, with taper sort of like a knife
edge, but not sharp. They were made from a plastic intended for molding
cell phones; very hard and stiff, way beyond traditional plastics.
The string slipped off the edge a lot faster than picks with larger radii
(less sharp).
I didn't like them, but he is vastly more experienced than me, maybe I'm
just not ready for better picks.

Anyone else out there make picks?

Elliot







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For example, C E7 A7 D7 G7 C.

It's like gravity pulling back to the starting point.

... it's called "Back Cycling" ... it can be done with any tune by going
backwards starting from the target chord going backwards in 5ths. When it gets
played normally those chords revert to 4ths.
This is especially good to use when you have say 4 measures of C to G:
C / / / / G /
... start with G and go backwards in 5ths:
/C / C# -- F#/ B - E / A - D / G / .... you give the particular
families of major, minor, or dominants to the chord names as you like, for
example<
/C / C#m7 -- F#7/ Bm7 - E7 / A7 - Dmaj7 / G / ... OR
/C / C#ma7 -- F#m7/ B7 - Em7 / A7 - Dm7 / G / Etc, etc.

Secondary dominance is simply the dominant-like function of a chord built on a
scale degree other than the 5th of the prevailing key ... one can think of it as
the "dominant of the dominant" or V7/V.
In detail, let's take the harmonized C scale and derive all its Secondary
Dominants:
C - Dm - Em - F - G - Am - Bm7b5 - C ... becomes (note that the V of V7 are all
major):
C - A7 (A major) - Dm - B7 (major) - Em - C7 (major)- F - D7 (major) - G - E7
(major) - Am ...

Long before I ever heard of "secondary dominants", I was given the following explanation by my first teacher, Sid Margolies.

He wrote out what he called the Cycle of Fifths.

It looks like a clock. C is at noon. G is at 1pm, D is at 2 PM. And so forth, each time going up a fifth.

He told me that a lot of songs start in one position and then have a second chord which is a few steps to the right.

So, for example, if you start on C, the next chord may be A7 or E7.

Then, the chord progression is likely to "cycle" counterclockwise back to the starting point.

For example, C E7 A7 D7 G7 C.

It's like gravity pulling back to the starting point.

And, in fact, there are a bunch of old tunes that work like that.
For example: Has Anybody Seen My Gal? and Sweet Georgia Brown.

There are many tunes which use fragments of it.

Thinking of it as secondary dominants might be better (I really don't know), but the foregoing worked for me for a long time.

Rick

On 10/19/2010 1:04 PM, Palmer wrote:

Oh, how insulting, all those kids downloading music. How dare they expect to
get it for free? (when we walked around all day with an AM radio stuck to
the side of our head)

No one has suggesting "taxing the kids". It's the sites like YouTube who should pay for what it is that they decide to offer (for free, subscription, or otherwise - that's their problem).

A new model must be set up because of the increased capabilities of the technology. This is not to say that the tech is bad, but, rather, that the model has to be updated to realistically deal with it, and, in parrticular, those companies which have a huge quasi-monopoly on it.

best,
Bobby

Hi Ron. Excellent stuff many thanks!

Cheers, Mark

[Excess text deleted by the moderators -- please edit your replies as per the list etiquette!]

I cam across the website for Evans amps



The demos are really interesting - exploring the
qualities of straight rich tone without overdrive.

Worth a visit,

Will

Hi Scott. Many thanks for your reply! Aaagh I had a GB10NT back in the 80's (bought new in 1983). I miss it so much and will probably get another at some point. I'll never forget the day i received the phone call from my local guitar shop saying my GB had arrived (imported) and was ready to collect. A wonderful day!

Cheers, Mark

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In jazz_guitar@..., "Elliot B" <optics22000@...> wrote:

Roger,
OK, how much (and why) does choice of pick matter? I'm not arguing that it doesn't, I just want to know how many people think the pick makes a significant difference in tone.
I made some picks for a friend who couldn't find what he wanted, these ended up being about 2 mm thick, rather small, with taper sort of like a knife edge, but not sharp. They were made from a plastic intended for molding cell phones; very hard and stiff, way beyond traditional plastics.
The string slipped off the edge a lot faster than picks with larger radii (less sharp).
I didn't like them, but he is vastly more experienced than me, maybe I'm just not ready for better picks.

Anyone else out there make picks?

I used to make picks out of whatever plastic I could find, but more recently I have been modifying picks. I spent years using fender mediums, which I liked for flatpicking, but when I got into jazz, I was never happy with the brightness that came from my jazz guitar. I switched to Dunlop nylon picks, I believe they were Jazz II. For a long time, I didn't like them but then I realized that they were stamped so that the edges were slightly off, and after I sanded them smooth, and hit them with extra fine steel wool, I loved them. They are thick, and they come off the string with very little friction, so there is no "scratch" sound. There is a definite difference in my tone, as this was the only thing I changed. I agree that picks make a big difference. Add that to pick angle, the amount of pressure, the location of the picking hand relative to the bridge and neck, and you have four variables before you even get to the strings, pickup, action or the guitar itself. Everything matters, so as a not-so-famous jug player once said, just jump in where you can and try to hang on.

Picks DO make a big difference in sound. I've never made them myself,
except for an attempt at one from Lignum Vitae. A very dense wood that is
also oily. It sounded good, but I whittled it down too small for it's
thickness. I have a thin one made from the same material that is 351
sized, but the tone wasn't as good as the thick one I made.
In general I like thick, rigid picks. I just ordered some Eric Johnson
Jazz IIIs. I used to really like JazzIIIs years ago, but they changed the
material they used. I still use them, for some of my playing but
hopefully the "new and improved" will be closer to the old ones.
In general, although I have a lot of nice gear, I'm not a gear snob. So
when you can change your tone for the better but buying a pick or some
heavier (or different) guitar strings my inner miser says "Yeah!".
Scott

On Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:43:54 -0000 "Elliot B" <optics22000@...>
writes:

Roger,
OK, how much (and why) does choice of pick matter? I'm not arguing
that it doesn't, I just want to know how many people think the pick
makes a significant difference in tone.
I made some picks for a friend who couldn't find what he wanted,
these ended up being about 2 mm thick, rather small, with taper sort
of like a knife edge, but not sharp. They were made from a plastic
intended for molding cell phones; very hard and stiff, way beyond
traditional plastics.
The string slipped off the edge a lot faster than picks with larger
radii (less sharp).
I didn't like them, but he is vastly more experienced than me, maybe
I'm just not ready for better picks.

Anyone else out there make picks?
Elliot

____________________________________________________________
SHOCKING: 2010 Honda Civic for $1,732.09
BREAKING NEWS: Is this a SCAM? You WON'T believe what we found!

I second this. Get your favorite sound and play with a fender medium
type pick then something about three times thicker like the Dunlop
stubby 3mm or the equivalent in another material. The difference is
not subtle.

Ron

Living and playing outside the box.

Right on John. I have zero sympathy for biddniss as it's come to be
done in this country. And I bet it's not that different in most other
places. As you rightly point out this is a transition period. Seems
pointless to get too excited about it just yet.

Ron

Living and playing outside the box.

Welcome aboard. I don't post much on the CG list anymore, I put mine
in the case a few years ago to let my thumb recover from my bad
technique. But still love the sound of them. IMHO someone who should
make a pretty good case for himself down thru the years will be
Graham Dechter. He's debut as a leader has very highly regarded
players on it. They would be John Clayton and Jeff Hamilton. Tamir
Hendlman is unknown to me but he plays to well to stay in the
background for long. Him and Dechter look way too young to play like
they do. Dechter's tone and style shout tradition in a fresh way.
Lovely stuff. The project is called Right On TIme.

There are four snips from that project on a google search of his
name. At the bottom is a link to a bigger chunk of Lined With a
Groove, and played on the same bass that Ray Brown used in `65 to
record the tune. Dechter's intro for the tune is taken from the
Oliver Nelson original arrangement. Mr. Nelson also is responsible
for Stolen Moments. The title is an astute use of the king's english
[ for the ideas it conveys with two words] and, it's a great song as
well. You can hear a very good version of that tune from Lee Ritenour
on one of his Wes albums I forget which. As far as straight ahead
mainstream 50s/60s jazz this guy is it for me.

Ron




Living and playing outside the box.

Roger,
OK, how much (and why) does choice of pick matter? I'm not arguing that it doesn't, I just want to know how many people think the pick makes a significant difference in tone.
I made some picks for a friend who couldn't find what he wanted, these ended up being about 2 mm thick, rather small, with taper sort of like a knife edge, but not sharp. They were made from a plastic intended for molding cell phones; very hard and stiff, way beyond traditional plastics.
The string slipped off the edge a lot faster than picks with larger radii (less sharp).
I didn't like them, but he is vastly more experienced than me, maybe I'm just not ready for better picks.

Anyone else out there make picks?


Elliot

There are metronome apps for the iphone and Android phones...

this is great:?

Hi Elliot,

Choice of pick matters. A lot. I used to "make" my own picks by buying
extra-heavy Fender standard picks, and reshaping them to the smaller "jazz
pick" shape so I could get the shape I wanted with the thickness I wanted.
I used to keep all sorts of picks around (as I suspect most of us here do),
but I just don't do that anymore. I tried some picks made by a fellow who
used to post here; he made them out of minerals, exotic wood, and other
stuff, but they broke, or didn't sound good, and I tried felt picks, and
something called the Tech Pick, which was made of metal. All of these
definitely had an effect on the sound.

When I started studying w/ Tom Hynes (a great player/teacher here in L.A.),
he hipped me to the Dunlop 206 picks, which are quite thick, and have a
shape similar to the one I liked. Problem solved. I've been playing these
for more than 5 years, & really like 'em. I'll even go so far as to say
that new 206s sound different than used ones, because the texture of the
picks changes over time with use. It's subtle, but I can feel it & hear it,
though I don't pay all that much att'n to it.

Only time I have an "issue" is when I play funk stuff, where a thinner pick
would probably make things easier, but I play funk/rock/blues w/ .012s, so
it's just another thing to deal with, lol.

Some rock/blues players, like Brian May and Billy Gibbons use coins, etc,
as picks, giving them a unique sound. On the jazz side of the music, two
words that make it plain what you use to strike the strings does indeed make
a difference: Wes Montgomery. 'Nuff said. :)

Cheers,
JV

Juan Vega

Petri,
What i try to remember is the 2nd chord of a tune. It will often provide a pathway through the song.
Jim