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jazz_guitar@... wrote:

Original Message:
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 16:02:35 +0000
From: "Lonnie Brown" <lbrw@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Technique question for Jimmy Bruno

zeek quoted

"When the song is over, the music is gone; it's in the air, and you
can never capture it again." -- John Coltrane

-- =---Seek the truth, speak the truth!---= --

Actually, Eric Dolphy was the one who said that. It was at a gig
in Europe about 10 days before he died. It's on an album he
recorded live at the gig.

Hi Lonnie,
I read that in a Coltrane plays Charlie Parker book sometime in the mid 1960s I
believe, and it was definitely attributed to Coltrane. It was on the front
inside cover page, the only thing there. I won't argue with you, but are you
sure Dolphy said it first? When did he die?

Regards,
...z



I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met...

-- =---Seek the truth, speak the truth!---= --

L.G. "Zeek" Duff
WHAT!Productions!
Blue Wall Studio
303.485.9438
ICQ#35974686

Mr. Bruno and Dr. Groves have each sent me very cordial email,
privately. I would call both aesthetically pleasing. While neither
agreed with my remarks 100%, for the most part, we're all on the same
page. The air has been completely cleared from my viewpoint, so I
thought I'd take a few minutes and share some of the insight I've gained
from this recent life experience. :)

First, Randy Groves hit something on the nose with an idea that perhaps
Jimmy Bruno was "just clumsy, or more likely, a fast email writer."
Well, according to the email from Jimmy, he's right on both counts. I
had a glimmer of that idea, which is why I didn't jump on the bandwagon
until after the "lessons" quip. I suspected, as I suggested might be
but didn't think so at the time, that it was a joke from Jimmy. After
reading his email to me, I'm now convinced it was definitely a joke,
albeit a bit of a clumsy one. I made a mistake in attempting to "read
between the lines" and psychoanalyze, and for that, I apologize.
Quarter tones never appealed much to me, anyway. ;)

Second, Randy suggested Jimmy might be "a bit loose" in regard to
controlling the output of "his people." Well, yeah. Jimmy says he
doesn't have any "people," other than booking agents, and knowing the
biz as well as I do, I believe him. So, when stuff IS written about
him, I doubt he even sees much of it at all. Thus, attributing
something to him, unless it's propounded as an exact quote, is complete
hearsay. Now, as Randy said to me, it would be nice to find the exact
Downbeat article wherein Jimmy is supposed to have ripped on Metheny.
If Jimmy didn't say what was written in this forum verbatim, I'd say he
has pretty good grounds for a lawsuit against Downbeat, should he have
the time and resources to pursue it. If he did say it verbatim, he blew
it; but, as Randy suggested, he may have been tired, 'cause it was too
late or too early, or whatever. I'm now convinced that *if* Jimmy said
that, he wishes he could take it back and is sincerely sorry things got
this far afield. He got painted into a corner, and it wasn't all his
doing, either. Time to let all THAT, just drop in this heah forum,
y'all...

Third, there was a mention of not practicing anymore and my take on
that. Well, I stand by what I said, but I also know that there are
times in life when one is gigging so much that once off stage, the last
thing you want to do is pick up an ax even for fun, let alone to
practice and/or learn something new. Jimmy says that's where he's at
right now, and I can dig it; been there, done that. I will say as an
aside to JB, that it took a refrigerator to fall on me to break me out
of a rut I had been in for about 15-20 years. I hope he steps back and
takes time to "smell the flowers" before something like that happens to
him; or like Tal Farlow, he just quits. I think JB might say, "that'll
never happen," and all I'll say is "keep an eye on your surroundings for
sh*t coming at you." I was nearly killed. I'll grant that *if* JB is
in a rut, it's one helluva lot better rut than the stinking dance band
rut *I* was in. I got God really pissed at me... :&#92;

Jimmy started out by saying he'd like to meet me sometime, and invited
us to his gig if and when he's in my area, gratis. In fact, that was
the subject line of his email. My wife and I be there. Like he wrote
me, and I agree, I think we might become good friends. We certainly
have a passionate interest in the same ax, and in music. And, despite
my call to the contrary, what we say here does affect him, as he cares
deeply. It's just that sometimes, it seems he has a bit of difficulty
and perhaps, not enough time to express himself in as aesthetically
pleasing a manner as some would like, I guess. Well, we've all had
those days, with two left hands, and one foot out the door...

Randy would like to discuss aesthetics as a philosopher interested in
the broad genre of jazz, and I for one, would like to read his
thoughts. Uh, the written ones, that is... ;)

So, enough guessing and second guessing. Jimmy, I look forward to
meeting you; and Randy, let 'er rip! :D

Regards,
...z
PS: Thanks for the personal support from a few here, and to the few who
feel I've wasted their time, I humbly apologize. Just remember that
career building is an important aspect of playing. If you perform only
in your living room, who cares? If there are any loose ends left
personality wise, we're all workin' on 'em...



"If you envy successful people, you create a negative force field of
detraction that repels you from ever doing the things that you need to
do to be successful. If you admire successful people, you create a
positive force field of attraction that draws you toward becoming more
and more like the kinds of people that you want to be like."
-- Brian Tracy

-- =---Seek the truth, speak the truth!---= --

L.G. "Zeek" Duff
WHAT!Productions!
Blue Wall Studio
303.485.9438
ICQ#35974686

--- In jazz_guitar@y..., "Patricio Murphy" <murphy@g...> wrote:

I don't go as low as you may want to, but my Takamine flat-top is

fitted

with a 0.65 bass string (I've even used a 0.80) as 6th that I tune

as low as

Bb. You may first try with two bass strings and see if you like it

before

comitting to a new guitar.

Hey Patricio,

How do you get volume on an acoustic with bass strings? I've tried
playing acoustic bass guitars but they're very quiet. It seems to me
that your bass string would be much quieter than your guitar
strings. Do you play the bass strings with a pick and fingerpick the
guitar strings with the remaining fingers?

I like the idea of an acoustic alto guitar the best but now I'm
trying to work out some of the technical issues.

Thanks!

Cheers,
Kevin
www.TheNettles.com

I got a request to explain altered tensions, stemming from a post that I had done in July that explained a little bit about chord functions and tensions. This seems like a good place to do this, for anyone who's lurking on the list that doesn't understand what all the hubbub is about tensions and "avoid" notes. Read the quoted first post on this page if you're not understanding chord functions and tensions.

Tensions on a chord are notes that would appear over the octave in a hierarchy of thirds. For example, a Imaj7 chord in the key of G would be G, B, D, F#, yielding an analysis of root, 3rd, 5th, and (major)7th of the corresponding chord scale. When I talk of the 5th of the Gmajor chord, I'm referring to the D note. As I add more 3rds above that basic 7th structure of the chord, I end up with notes over the octave. Going with the Gmajor example, the whole scale can be spelled in 3rds: G, B, D, F#, A, C, E. As western music uses a harmonic system based on 3rds, we think of these notes as root, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13. Notice that 9, 11, and 13 also correspond with 2, 4, and 6 of the chord scale. When the notes are added into a 7th chord structure, we refer to these upper notes as tensions over the basic chord, therefore refer to them as their "upper structure" numeral names, or what they'd be called over the octave. This doesn't have much to do with where the notes can be placed in a voicing. You can have a Gmajor9 chord voiced(from bottom to top) G, A, B, D, F#. Even though the "A" note is positioned as the second note in the voicing, we still refer to it as "9".

If you look in any key, you'll find a standard set of tensions over similar functioning chords. Over Gmaj7, you'll find 9 and 13 work. The conflict about "avoid" notes starts right here. The 11(also known as 4) is called an avoid note because when it is put into the harmony, it tends to mask the 3rd of the chord, which is a guide tone that defines the harmony. If it is too difficult to hear the 3rd of the chord, it is difficult to hear the quality and the function of the chord. The note still works over this chord, but it is generally given that you don't want to use this "avoid" note(for lack of a better term) on a strong beat or for a long duration. Using it as a passing tone allows a quick dominant resolution, a "mini-resolution", if you will. Over ii-7, we have 9, 11, and 13 available, as none of these chord tones are a half-step above a guide tone note. However, 13 on a -7 chord is an issue which the jury is still out on, probably always will be. A general rule, which many of us think was made to be broken, is the rule that says tension 13 sounds too dissonant over a -7 chord. Salt to taste, as far as I'm concerned. The iii-7 chord can use 11, but it has a b9(b2) that is inherent from the key signature, which would give a diminished sound to the chord, so that b9 sound is generally an "avoid note." IVmajor can use 9, #11, and 13, as the #11 does not mask the 3rd. V7 can use 9 and 13, but the 11 is thought of as an avoid note. The jury is out on that one as well. The note may work well, but to my ears, it makes the dominant function much weaker if used, due to the masking of the 3rd. The vi-7 chord uses 9 and 11, as ii-7 does, but the 13 in this case would be b13/b6, which wouldn't necessarily work.

What about chords from different keys? For example, if I'm doing a ii-7-->V7 chord, I could change the ii-7 to II7, or a dominant 7 chord built on the 2nd degree of the scale. In the key of C, this would be D7-->G7, instead of D-7-->G7. This would be a V7 chord targeting G7, which would be called V7 of V, or V7/V. This chord would take it's tensions from the main key signature, which would be the key of C. So the tensions would be mainly the same as if the chord was in the key of G. Over D7, you could use E, which would be 9, G, which would be 11(or is this an avoid note?), and B, which is 13.

However, what about the case of V7/vi? In the key of C, A-7 is vi-7, and the dominant chord that would resolve down a 5th to A would be E7. Notice that E7 in this context would end up with an F as it's 9. That would be b9, not natural 9. This is where the altered tension concept comes in. A ii-7-->V7/vi would likely be B-7(b5)-->E7(b9)-->A-7. We're "borrowing" chords from the key of A minor. B-7(b5) is naturally in the key signature of C, but E7 has an altered note, which is G#, in order to make it a dominant 7 chord. On a standard V7 chord, however, 9 is usually a whole step above the root, so we'll call this E7(b9). We also may substitute a chord from a different key to liven up the harmony a bit. Maybe we'll make Cmajor7 into Cmajor7(#11). This would allude to the key of G. We may not go to the key of G, but it makes for some nice coloring, as Cmajor7(#11) has no "avoid" note 11/4.

Another version of this would be ii-->V/iii, which in the key of C would be F#-7(b5)-->B7(b9)-->E-7. F#-7(b5) is somewhat obvious that the tonic note, C, is not the perfect 5th over F#, so it is called b5. What about tritone substitutes? Such as using Db7 to sub for G7? Well, Db7 would have D, E, and G from the key of the tune, which would correspond with b9, #9, and #11, according to the root note of the chord. So you may want to consider this chord Db7(b9, #11). if there is a b9, #9 is usually implied. If the E is in the melody, you may want to call the chord Db7(#9, #11) with the b9 implied. Whichever floats your boat.

We can also allude to a different key and not actually resolve there, if desired. Maybe in the key of C, we want to use G7(b5), which may allude to the tritone sub of the key of Gb. Pretty much the function of the V7 chord is to be dissonant and want to resolve, so the more dissonance we have, the more the chord wants to resolve. In this case, the guide tones, 3 and 7(B and F) want to resolve to E and C of the C major chord, and the altered note, Db, would also resolve to C, or up to tension 9 of the Cmajor chord.

For another example, if we *did* decide to use V7/V-->V7-->I, we might make the Cmajor into CMaj7(#11). This would give us a IV chord from the "borrowed" key, in this case, key of G major. Example:

||Cmaj7 / / / |D-7 / G7 /|Cmaj7 / / /||

This could become:

||Cmaj7#11 / / /|D7 / G7 /|Cmaj7 / / /||

Cmaj7#11 to D7 really alludes to the key of G major, but then the resolution is misleading, because it goes to G7, which leads us to Cmaj7. Nice.

There are a number of other examples of altered tensions. How about the related ii-7 of a tritone sub? If I'm using Db7 as a sub for G7, I might set it up with it's related V7, which would be Ab7. Ab7 could have b9, #9, #11, #5, and 13. Maybe Db13(b9,#11,#5)? Figure out what works for you.

Mike Crutcher
Guitarist/Vocalist/Arranger/Instructor
Available for sessions/fill-ins/performances/private lessons.

"You've Got To Funkifize"
-Tower Of Power

I was on vacation for 2 weeks and I see that somehow in that time
people managed to get Jimmy Bruno on the list and then drive him away.

It's kind of pathetic that we get one of the greatest players around
on the list and all people can do is abuse him.

-Dan

I am new to the Group, I thought I should say 'hi'.
I've been playing for about 40 years, off and on. I
got interested in jazz about 15 years ago, but didn't
seriously pursue it 'til a couple of years ago. I'm
presently attending a local school of music. The main
thing I was looking for was theory, reading, and some
explanation of how to even start to understand jazz...
I've recently discovered that I'm totally in love with
jazz, it has become my religion, bebop is...what can I
say? There is so much to learn, but like I've read and
heard so many times, 'jazz isn't a destination, it's a
journey.' I suppose I'll spend the rest of my life
trying to figure it out, but I don't ever really
expect to learn it all...
Anyway, hi.
Jimmy

I'd be interested in that, as well. I think it has more to do with McLaughlin's attack. I believe he's just dealing with chorus and slight overdrive from the amp. That's just a guess. Anyone have a more definitive answer?

Mike Crutcher
Guitarist/Vocalist/Arranger/Instructor
Available for sessions/fill-ins/performances/private lessons.

"You've Got To Funkifize"
-Tower Of Power

"How To Learn Tunes" by David Baker (Aebersold Jazz)...has
been mentioned before, but like my CostaRican broads....
it's a real sleeper!!
-Grandaddy Mike

Folks

For those of you not aware but the group guidelines and FAQ are
located here:



From May 2001 a copy was sent to all new (joining) members.
Old members should take a look at it as it has a lot of
useful information about the group, guidelines, rules
etc.

As usual comments and additions to the FAQ are always
appreciated.

Alisdair MacRae Birch
Jazz Guitarist

I would disagree with your comment on Mr. Duff - and you can see how
even this mild disagreement, as it involves a person, can easily spin
out of control. By and large, I'm sure all of us are civilized human
beings. It's largely an artifact of this medium, I suspect, and as
far as I'm concerned, an "occupational hazard" of newsgroups.

I would agree with you on perhaps having some clear guidelines set
forth by the moderator (or members). I had some part in this whole
fiasco which on my part was precipitated by a commercial enterprise
posting here - that would not be tolerated on public newgroups (it's
different if you or I choose to post a testamonial to some product).
I did look around here for guidelines and perhaps I just missed them
so maybe someone can point them out.

Discussions on whether <X> is a horrible player or a great player
don't really interest me, and I'm ticked off at myself for getting
sucked into it at all. Let's get back to some more interesting topics.

-Jim


--- In jazz_guitar@y..., sribeme@a... wrote:

I would have to say that after reading Mr. Duff's comments on Lan

leaving the

group I too would not wish to be affiliated with a group that would

have Mr.

Duff as a member.

His comments went beyond good taste (i.e. "Too bad Lan's prozac ran

out"),

his psychology banal, and his opinions certainly don't represent me

or my

feelings.

I am saddened by Lan's departure. My recommendation would be that

Mr. Duff

seriously reconsider his boorish actions. While he may

passionately feel he

is correct in his opinions he may consider that there are better

ways to

disagree and express views than to attack someone's character so
vitriolically in a public forum.

My suggestion would be that the moderator not post patently

inappropriate

material, have some clear guidelines regarding what is and not

appropriate,

and ask members to respond to how they would like the forum to

operate.

Certainly, there should be no need for a "Jazz Guitar Nazi" in a

forum such

as this. Hopefully, responses such as this will help set the tone.

There are many opportunities on this forum to develop a special "on

line

community." As a human being first and a jazz guitarist second I

am saddened

by the attacks, I am saddened that Jimmy Bruno was treated so

disrespectfully

and we will not have his input. If it was my vote I would much

prefer to

speak with Lan and Jimmy than than Mr. Duff.

Lets see, I am in a jazz guitar forum, who would I like to interact

with?

Jimmy Bruno or Mr. Duff. Hmmm.

David Rudick

Hi jazzers.
I listened some of John Stowell stuff and he is realy great.
I also discover that he has 3 instrucional videos.
What do you have to say about the vid's? They worth it?
I'm specialy intersted in his chordal and solo guitar approach.
Does his videos talk about this? Wich one?
Thanks for leting me know abou this guy and for all your future
responses.

Vitor.
Portugal.

"Alisdair MacRae Birch" <akmbirch@y...>

wrote:

Hi Vitor

A good book as a springboard for some new ideas is:

Melodic Chord Phrases by Ron Eschete

Hi Alisdair.
Could you tell me more things about these book? What kind of
subjects does it cover? It's a "modern" book?
Thanks.

Vitor.
Portugal.

I would recommend the National Guitar Workshop series by Jody Fisher.
Four volumes, Beginning, Intermediate, Mastering Jazz Guitar Chord
Melody and Mastering Jazz Guitar Improvisation. Available at several
places but my favorite place is:

I'll second that. I've been playing guitar for about 20 years and I decided
to learn jazz. I picked up the first 3 in this set and it really seems well
put together. Each 'lesson' is broken into chord work and single line work.

These books assume that you aren't a beginner guitarist (which was what I
wanted.)

Besides, Jody is a really cool guy. :)

-=-=-=-=-
Born to Fish, Forced to Work.

Tony
bonkrz@... tonykennedy@...

While I agree that attacks against a "natural" person are unacceptable, I understand that critising an attitude by a musician is one of the things this "discussion" group would be meant for. In fact, in my native Portuguese "discussao" both means "negotiating" and "fighting". The is always a fair amount of feather rustling in a discussion. For example, I don't believe one will fully understand Mingus's music if one doesn't analyse critically his attitudes, which could mistakingly be deemed as extra-musical situations, but which in fact define the way he appoached music. Personally I'm not sure there was any extra-musical criticism in some of the latest controversial postings on one or two famous guitarists. But even if they got slightly out of point, other people were there to counter the "offenders". There is always something to be picked from what can seem as a libel. My opinion is that topics should be explored ad nauseam.

Perhaps with all the BS going on my question has
fallen by the wayside. So I'll try once more...

Hi,

Can anyone of you recommend to me
a really good jazz guitar self-tutor from
intermediate level onwards comprising
of book with CD video, and the source.

Thanks and warm regards,

Paul,
mailto:astro@...

HI,

I am a self-taught jazz guitarist. My
left-hand fingers tire and hurt very
quickly inspite of frequent rest periods.
Can anyone of you, professionals,
suggest some remedial advice. Would
highly appreciate the same.

Thanks and best wishes to all of you there!

Paul,
mailto:astro@...

Hi Vitor,

I have to say that I've never seen any of John Stowell's videos, but while I
was living in Portland I studied with John over a period of a couple of
years, and he's a great teacher. Some people can be great players but have
difficulty in communicating what they know to others. This is definitely not
the case with John. He is an excellent teacher, and I'm sure the videos
would be very helpful.

Ted Vieira
--
Listen to my CDs for free:


--
Or visit my website:

Bio Information, Sound Files,
Free Online Guitar Instruction, Books, CDs and more...

Hey Jimmy,

Sounds like you've got a great attitude. If you're looking for information
on music theory, there are a lot of guys on this list who offer free
instructional information on their websites that might be helpful to you. If
you like you can take a look through the online lessons on my website at:


Welcome to the group!

Ted Vieira
--
Listen to my CDs for free:


--
Or visit my website:

Bio Information, Sound Files,
Free Online Guitar Instruction, Books, CDs and more...

I hope I can get some new ideas here - I have recently began playing with a good 6 piece combo - two saxes, clarinet, upright bass, drums and me on guitar. I am getting the calls because I can solo, the other guy that they were using only plays rhythm. 80% of the time I am playing rhythm also, just supporting the horns,. but sometimes I am called on to solo. Most of the tunes I know pretty well, (Real Book) but I am not too familiar with some of them. Solos can get pretty weak when you lose your place! I am probably going to practice this week on soloing without taking my eyes off of the chart, if I can keep track of the changes I can at least play SOMETHING.
Of course having the tunes down stone cold is the ultimate answer, but are there
any suggestions for faking it till then???

Steve