开云体育

Enjoy!

It was nice chatting with you and our table mates at the banquet - it was well worth the effort of assembling a good.

Arnie

I'm still in Cleveland. Going to the Football Hall of Fame in Canton
Monday, then back to Portland Monday evening.

On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 2:10?AM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

Interesting, Stephanie, thanks!!

Have you made it back to Pdx yet? I’m about to take off from Sea-Tac to
get back to Portland before midnight.

Wasn’t it a great AGM??

Arnie

On Oct 20, 2024, at 10:40?PM, Stephanie Vardavas via groups.io

<vardavas@...> wrote:

?I have always thought that this was about the vulgarity of presuming to
compliment a person's "merit" based strictly on their appearance.

On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 1:31?AM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

[Jane’s] eyes, a deep grey, with dark eye-lashes and eyebrows, had never
been denied their praise; but the skin, which she had been used to cavil
at, as wanting colour, had a clearness and delicacy which really needed

no

fuller bloom. It was a style of beauty, of which elegance was the

reigning

character, and as such, she must, in honour, by all her principles,

admire

it:—*elegance*, which, whether of person or of mind, she saw so little

in

Highbury. *There, not to be vulgar, was distinction, and merit."*


As Emma contemplates Jane shortly after Jane's arrival in Highbury in

Ch.

20, she grudgingly acknowledges the elegance of Jane's style of beauty,

and

feels she must admire it, in comparison to what she sees in other

females

in Highbury.


Why does Emma then think, "not to be vulgar", that this constituted

Jane's

"distinction and merit". Is it Emma's sense that Jane is no great

shakes to

stand out in Highbury, because there is no real competition? If so,

then,

Emma is in effect, undercutting her admiration as soon as she thinks it,
because in fact, she is jealous of Jane's elegance but hates to admit

it?

Or
is Emma, in her snobbery, characterizing her thoughts as "vulgar" for

some

other reason I am missing?


ARNIE

--
NOTE: Effective February 1, 2022, my office hours are from 12 noon to 5

pm,

Monday through Friday, and by appointment during other hours.
<

Stephanie Vardavas
stephanievardavas.com
<

*Specializing
in product safety and regulatory compliance for consumer products, as

well

as licensing and sports marketing, including sponsorships and

endorsements.

Also supporting nonprofits and simple trademark registrations.*

*Pronouns: she/her/hers*

*This email may be confidential and privileged. If you have received it

in

error, please respond to advise sender of the error and then delete the
email and any attachments. Thank you.*

Interesting, Stephanie, thanks!!

Have you made it back to Pdx yet? I’m about to take off from Sea-Tac to get back to Portland before midnight.

Wasn’t it a great AGM??

Arnie

I have always thought that this was about the vulgarity of presuming to
compliment a person's "merit" based strictly on their appearance.



On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 1:31?AM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

[Jane’s] eyes, a deep grey, with dark eye-lashes and eyebrows, had never
been denied their praise; but the skin, which she had been used to cavil
at, as wanting colour, had a clearness and delicacy which really needed no
fuller bloom. It was a style of beauty, of which elegance was the reigning
character, and as such, she must, in honour, by all her principles, admire
it:—*elegance*, which, whether of person or of mind, she saw so little in
Highbury. *There, not to be vulgar, was distinction, and merit."*


As Emma contemplates Jane shortly after Jane's arrival in Highbury in Ch.
20, she grudgingly acknowledges the elegance of Jane's style of beauty, and
feels she must admire it, in comparison to what she sees in other females
in Highbury.


Why does Emma then think, "not to be vulgar", that this constituted Jane's
"distinction and merit". Is it Emma's sense that Jane is no great shakes to
stand out in Highbury, because there is no real competition? If so, then,
Emma is in effect, undercutting her admiration as soon as she thinks it,
because in fact, she is jealous of Jane's elegance but hates to admit it?
Or
is Emma, in her snobbery, characterizing her thoughts as "vulgar" for some
other reason I am missing?


ARNIE

--
NOTE: Effective February 1, 2022, my office hours are from 12 noon to 5 pm,
Monday through Friday, and by appointment during other hours.
<>
Stephanie Vardavas
stephanievardavas.com
<>
*Specializing
in product safety and regulatory compliance for consumer products, as well
as licensing and sports marketing, including sponsorships and endorsements.
Also supporting nonprofits and simple trademark registrations.*

*Pronouns: she/her/hers*

*This email may be confidential and privileged. If you have received it in
error, please respond to advise sender of the error and then delete the
email and any attachments. Thank you.*

[Jane’s] eyes, a deep grey, with dark eye-lashes and eyebrows, had never
been denied their praise; but the skin, which she had been used to cavil
at, as wanting colour, had a clearness and delicacy which really needed no
fuller bloom. It was a style of beauty, of which elegance was the reigning
character, and as such, she must, in honour, by all her principles, admire
it:—*elegance*, which, whether of person or of mind, she saw so little in
Highbury. *There, not to be vulgar, was distinction, and merit."*


As Emma contemplates Jane shortly after Jane's arrival in Highbury in Ch.
20, she grudgingly acknowledges the elegance of Jane's style of beauty, and
feels she must admire it, in comparison to what she sees in other females
in Highbury.


Why does Emma then think, "not to be vulgar", that this constituted Jane's
"distinction and merit". Is it Emma's sense that Jane is no great shakes to
stand out in Highbury, because there is no real competition? If so, then,
Emma is in effect, undercutting her admiration as soon as she thinks it,
because in fact, she is jealous of Jane's elegance but hates to admit it? Or
is Emma, in her snobbery, characterizing her thoughts as "vulgar" for some
other reason I am missing?


ARNIE

The conference (live) was one of the better ones among the 15 I’ve attended since 2005.

Arnie

2nd day of 3. Today I found only one of the JASNA talks of interest to
me; the speakers were aiming at someone who knows less. Savige's talk
about Austen's copy of Isaac D'Istaeli's Curiosities of literature put
bfore me new matter and that it's connected to Austen as a book she
owned and probably read.

As with people where babies and children, adolescents too, are
psychologically different from adults, I can see that kittens are
psychologically different from adult cats.

On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 8:59?PM Ellen Moody via groups.io
<ellen.moody@...> wrote:

with a little bit about my baby kittens

I very much enjoyed Austen sessions at virtual or livestream JASNA
today; in a way much better than with going to conference which I find
stressful, lonely, with long periods with nothing for me to do. I took
off from 2 sessions and did what I wanted here then. I am capable of
only a few scratched out notes but if I write up Sunday night when
memory still fresh enough I can tell a little of the excellent
sessions I attended.

Kitties had a good day today: I woke to find them sleeping near me;
then they waited with me while I write to my good friend, Rory who
lives in Ireland my usual morning letter (on my ipad) in response to
his, and the sun came up. I went to the kitchen, and for the first
time they simply followed and I could see were hungry.

Fiona aggressive and if I put 2 bowls out she goes between hers and
Ellie's and Ellie waits until Fiona's done. Same pattern of awareness
at 5 pm -- and Ellie pushed to wait.

Periods of intense play. If I'm not mistaken, the two kittens were
playing hide and seek. Fiona was hiding behind bathroom door; Elinor
trying to make her come round; then they reversed roles. They squeeked
and squeeled -- that's why I saw this. Could my interpretation be
correct? Then apparent game evolved into wild wrestling and
playbiting.

I must keep them from library table with modem in computer work room
but they understood they should not go there quickly (went anyway).

Ellen

ME BEFORE: "Nope, I don’t buy that one at all. You seem to accept 顿补谤肠测’蝉
view of what is proper and what is not . . ."

DOROTHY: "Actually, my point was that Bingley accepts 顿补谤肠测’蝉 view. There
is a lot made of 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 dependence on 顿补谤肠测’蝉 persuasion (or a
“friend’s” persuasion) in an early pivotal scene in the novel, when
Elizabeth stays at Netherfield."

That would be this one:

To yield readily—easily—to the *persuasion* of a friend is no merit with
测辞耻.”

“To yield without conviction is no compliment to the understanding of
别颈迟丑别谤.”

“You appear to me, Mr. Darcy, to allow nothing for the influence of
friendship and affection. A regard for the requester would often make one
readily yield to a request, without waiting for arguments to reason one
into it. I am not particularly speaking of such a case as you have supposed
about Mr. Bingley. We may as well wait, perhaps, till the circumstance
occurs, before we discuss the discretion of his behaviour thereupon. But in
general and ordinary cases, between friend and friend, where one of them is
desired by the other to change a resolution of no very great moment, should
you think ill of that person for complying with the desire, without waiting
to be argued into it?”

“Will it not be advisable, before we proceed on this subject, to arrange
with rather more precision the degree of importance which is to appertain
to this request, as well as the degree of intimacy subsisting between the
辫补谤迟颈别蝉?”

“By all means,” cried Bingley; “let us hear all the particulars, not
forgetting their comparative height and size, for that will have more
weight in the argument, Miss Bennet, than you may be aware of. I assure you
that if Darcy were not such a great tall fellow, in comparison with myself,
I should not pay him half so much deference. I declare I do not know a more
awful object than Darcy on particular occasions, and in particular places;
at his own house especially, and of a Sunday evening, when he has nothing
to do.”


That discussion shows that Darcy is well aware of Bingley's trusting
Darcy's persuasion due to their strong degree of intimacy, and other
aspects of their personalities. and he abuses that trust, and even boasts
about it to Col. Fitzwilliam!

When Bingley's relationship with Jane was on the line, Bingley, feeling
insecure about Jane's feelings for him, thought he could trust his older,
more worldly, best friend Darcy to have his (Bingley's) best interest at
heart. It would be an essential part of that fiduciary duty for Darcy not
to lie to Bingley, or deceive him by concealing important information, and
certainly not to meddle so as to deliberately break Bingley up from Jane.
Why does that make Bingley weak-willed? It makes Darcy a terrible person,
he knows exactly what he's doing, and he's basically acting like a master
of the universe who can do whatever he wants.

Note that we read the below debriefing by Darcy in Chapter 58 about Bingley
being angry at Darcy. Of course Bingley was angry, that was nearly 5 months
of happiness that Darcy cost Bingley and Jane. The person who makes too
much out of Bingley's dependence on Darcy in the interim is Elizabeth, in
rationalizing repeatedly why she shouldn't lift a finger to at least try to
get her father to contact Bingley. It's total nonsense to blame Bingley as
weak-willed, instead of what she should have done, which is not to
victim-blame, but instead to out Darcy's unforgivable interference to her
father, putting Jane's interest ahead of her own, and to thereby give
Bingley a chance to recognize that his trusted friend had profoundly
betrayed his trust.

Even at the end of the following passage, Elizabeth holds back from
criticizing Darcy for what he did, and rationalizes that cowardice as "He
doesn't know how to laugh at himself" - no, it's because she doesn't want
to do anything to upset Darcy, and perhaps have him change his mind about
making her the mistress of Pemberley. He's already shown a propensity for
disregarding the feelings of others when they offend his very thin skin.

“What could have become of Mr. Bingley and Jane?” was a wonder which
introduced the discussion of *their* affairs. Darcy was delighted with
their engagement; his friend had given him the earliest information of it.

“I must ask whether you were surprised?” said Elizabeth.

“Not at all. When I went away, I felt that it would soon happen.”

“That is to say, you had given your permission. I guessed as much.” And
though he exclaimed at the term, she found that it had been pretty much the
case.

“On the evening before my going to London,” said he, “I made a confession
to him, which I believe I ought to have made long ago. I told him of all
that had occurred to make my former interference in his affairs absurd and
impertinent. His surprise was great. He had never had the slightest
suspicion. I told him, moreover, that I believed myself mistaken in
supposing, as I had done, that your sister was indifferent to him; and as I
could easily perceive that his attachment to her was unabated, I felt no
doubt of their happiness together.”

Elizabeth could not help smiling at his easy manner of directing his friend.

“Did you speak from your own observation,” said she, “when you told him
that my sister loved him, or merely from my information last spring?”

“From the former. I had narrowly observed her, during the two visits which
I had lately made her here; and I was convinced of her affection.”

“And your assurance of it, I suppose, carried immediate conviction to him.”

“It did. Bingley is most unaffectedly modest. His diffidence had prevented
his depending on his own judgment in so anxious a case, but his reliance on
mine made everything easy. *I was obliged to confess one thing, which for a
time, and not unjustly, offended him. I could not allow myself to conceal
that your sister had been in town three months last winter, that I had
known it, and purposely kept it from him. He was angry.* But his anger, I
am persuaded, lasted no longer than he remained in any doubt of your
sister’s sentiments. He has heartily forgiven me now.”

Elizabeth longed to observe that Mr. Bingley had been a most delightful
friend; so easily guided that his worth was invaluable; but she checked
herself. She remembered that he had yet to learn to be laughed at, and it
was rather too early to begin. In anticipating the happiness of Bingley,
which of course was to be inferior only to his own, he continued the
conversation till they reached the house. In the hall they parted.

Though BIngley had money from his father, he and his sisters really didn't
know society the way Darcy would . Darcy's family had moved in fairly
high circles of society. His father was wealthy and married to the
daughter of an earl, so his in-laws were all aristocrats. Bingley is a
modest ,good hearted man but probably not a brilliant or forceful one.
He was looking to Darcy to help him move in society of the upper gentry.
It wasn't always easy even for people of the day to figure out the
social hierarchy.
Nancy

Arnie: Nope, I don’t buy that one at all. You seem to accept 顿补谤肠测’蝉 view of what is proper and what is not . . .


Actually, my point was that Bingley accepts 顿补谤肠测’蝉 view. There is a lot made of 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 dependence on 顿补谤肠测’蝉 persuasion (or a “friend’s” persuasion) in an early pivotal scene in the novel, when Elizabeth stays at Netherfield.


Dorothy

Never sure. I'll find out that morning.

Ellen

This isn’t a variation, it’s an alternative explanation for Elizabeth’s behavior that is plausible and supported by a variety of passages in the novel text.

You’re claiming as the only explanation the explanation that Elizabeth gives to herself. Austens narrative voice is fundamentally ambiguous, and one plausible way of reading it is reading it as often being Elizabeth’s subjective take on what happens, and Elizabeth often lacks self awareness, a lot like Emma.

But putting that aside, I am quite surprised that you believe most readers blame Bingley for listening to Darcy rather than blame Darcy for lying to Bingley about Jane. That’s so not how I read it. Darcy abused Bingleys trust.

Arnie

Arnie, there appears to be a strong market for Austen variation novels. I
have long suggested that you make your subtext theories into novels and
publish them. Write the novel as you think it should have been done. No one
else that I know of has judged Elizabeth as being jealous of Jane. She was
furious with Darcy because he hurt her sister. For most of us, the fact
that Bingley was willing to give up Jane and leave because Darcy said to do
so meant that he wasn't really in love with her to be so easily influenced
to leave.
Write the story with a jealous Elizabeth or one who is more proactive.
Nancy

On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 8:35?PM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

,
A
Elizabeth's inaction was harmful by the good things it prevented from
happening.

But, again, she was jealous of Jane, and then acted selfishly, and everyone
in the family paid the price.

ARNIE

Again, I have NOT suggested that Jane would or should ask her father to
intervene on her behalf. It is Elizabeth who has the unique knowledge that
such an intervention by Mr. Bennet would have a pretty good chance of
succeeding, which could have meant that Jane might not have had to wait
until Chapter 52 (according to your chronology, Ellen, that would be
October 4) for the bliss that she feels because of what Bingley told Jane
about not knowing she had been in town, but instead might have experienced
it by, say, Chapter 40 (that would be the middle of May), if Elizabeth had
made the request to her father at her first opportunity, and if he had
acted as promptly on it as he did when word arrived that Lydia had eloped
with Wickham.

That would mean that nearly 5 MONTHS of sadness and grieving by Jane for
the inexplicable end of her connection to Bingley would have been averted!

And had Darcy not decided to clean up the mess he had created when he did,
Jane's sadness might have been permanent.

So I'm sorry, but starched notions of propriety and decorum are no reason
at all, when weighed in the scales of justice and morality against a
fighting chance for a very happy outcome for Jane in the short term.

And, last point --Jane getting engaged to Bingley in mid-May might well
have opened all sorts of great possibilities for the other Bennet sisters -
and might have, e.g., averted Lydia's and kitty's trip to Brighton, by
providing an alternative of, say, a chaperoned trip to London under the
supervision of Jane and Bingley.

Elizabeth's inaction was harmful by the good things it prevented from
happening.

But, again, she was jealous of Jane, and then acted selfishly, and everyone
in the family paid the price.

ARNIE

On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 4:34?PM Ellen Moody via groups.io <ellen.moody=
[email protected]> wrote:

I agree with most that the last thing a respectable young woman would
do wud be to ask a parent secretly to write. Parents don't act in
secret that way. They are authority figures for real. Ellen

On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 4:29?PM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

*NANCY*: “How mortifying for a daughter, especially one like Jane, to

have

her father tell Bingley that she was in love with him. The father could

ask

his intentions and suggest that he owed his daughter more than a quick
disappearance from her life. How is it greater morality to humiliate the
诲补耻驳丑迟别谤?”



I emphasized in my post that Jane would *never* know her father had
approached Bingley, based on the following:



If Bingley didn’t respond positively, Mr. Bennet already would have

written

that he would never see him again, and Mr. Bennet would never tell anyone
except Elizabeth about the outcome of his mission, and Elizabeth would
never tell Jane.



If Bingley did respond positively, neither he nor Mr. Bennet would ever
tell Jane about Mr. Bennet’s mission, instead Bingley would just come

back

in Chapter 52 and renew his advances to Jane, and say exactly what he

said

to Jane in the novel, as reported to Elizabeth by Jane:



*“He has made me so happy,” said she, one evening, “by telling me that he
was totally ignorant of my being in town last spring! I had not believed

it

辫辞蝉蝉颈产濒别.”*

“I suspected as much,” replied Elizabeth. “*But how did he account for

颈迟?”*

*“It must have been his sisters’ doing. *They were certainly no friends

to

his acquaintance with me, which I cannot wonder at, since he might have
chosen so much more advantageously in many respects. But when they see,

as

I trust they will, that their brother is happy with me, they will learn

to

be contented, and we shall be on good terms again: though we can never be
what we once were to each other.”

“That is the most unforgiving speech,” said Elizabeth, “that I ever heard
you utter. Good girl! It would vex me, indeed, to see you again the dupe

of

Miss 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 pretended regard.”

*“Would you believe it, Lizzy, that when he went to town last November he
really loved me, and nothing but a persuasion of my being indifferent

would

have prevented his coming down again?”*

*“He made a little mistake, to be sure; but it is to the credit of his
尘辞诲别蝉迟测.”*

This naturally introduced a panegyric from Jane on his diffidence, and

the

little value he put on his own good qualities.

*Elizabeth was pleased to find that he had not betrayed the interference

of

his friend; for, though Jane had the most generous and forgiving heart in
the world, she knew it was a circumstance which must prejudice her

against

丑颈尘.”*



So, there is no scenario in which Jane is either humiliated or mortified,
right?



*DOROTHY: “*Arnie, I agree with you Mr Bennet is too indolent a father to
bother to write a letter on Jane’s behalf.”



But…he does secretly go over to Netherfield to say hi to Bingley – that’s
precedent Elizabeth knows about for him sometimes pretending to be

indolent.

*DOROTHY*: “But a more significant reason he wouldn’t take the step (or
rather, that Elizabeth would not urge him to) is that, first, though
Bingley was very much in love with Jane, and was convinced himself she
loved him in return, **he was persuaded by Darcy to believe she did not.

He

trusted Darcy's judgement over his own.** Mr Darcy warned him of the
impropriety of the match, but also managed to convince him, probably
believed himself (though admits he may have been biased by his own

wishes)

that Jane simply does not return 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 affections. Elizabeth more

than

anyone knows of their friendship and 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 trust in 顿补谤肠测’蝉

箩耻诲驳别尘别苍迟.”

What Elizabeth knows from 顿补谤肠测’蝉 letter is this:



“There is but one part of my conduct in the whole affair on which I do

not

reflect with satisfaction; it is, that I condescended to adopt the

measures

of art so far as to conceal from him your sister's being in town. I knew

it

myself, as it was known to Miss Bingley; ** *but her brother is even yet
ignorant of it.* ** That they might have met without ill consequence is
perhaps probable; but ***his regard did not appear to me enough
extinguished for him to see her without some danger.** *Perhaps this
concealment, this disguise was beneath me; it is done, however, and it

was

done for the best. On this subject I have nothing more to say, no other
apology to offer. If I have wounded your sister's feelings, it was
unknowingly done; and though the motives which governed me may to you

very

naturally appear insufficient, I have not yet learnt to condemn them.”



Elizabeth would have to be a very dull elf indeed not to infer from all

of

that, that Bingley has stayed away from Jane for a combination of two
reasons: his trust in Darcy, and his unawareness of Jane’s trip to

London.

Darcy himself concedes that if they had met, sparks might have flown

again

between them.

Elizabeth now has the power to wipe that second reason away from

叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉

mind, and yet, she fails to act, and instead rationalizes potential extra
pain for Jane, even though, as I stated to Nancy, above, that risk could

be

completely eliminated, and a secret mission by Mr. Bennet could still

have

a shot at success.



*DOROTHY*: “The second reason Mr Bennet would never take such a step
(other than the one of custom Nancy suggests) is that he is certainly

not a

disinterested party – of *course* he would love to have his daughter

marry

a wealthy young scion! His motives would be suspect, and again, Mr

顿补谤肠测’蝉

judgement of the family’s impropriety would only be confirmed.”



Nope, I don’t buy that one at all. You seem to accept 顿补谤肠测’蝉 view of

what

is proper and what is not, I do not, HE is certainly not a “disinterested
party” in all of this, he is the one who drove a wedge between Bingley

and

Jane, and doesn’t feel an ounce of remorse about it when he writes that
letter.



Mr. Bennet is nothing if not diplomatic, when he wants to be. Your

comment

has been helpful, because now I would add the following to Mr. Bennet’s
hypothetical letter to Bingley:

“Before I close, let me not neglect, Mr. Bingley, to address the

proverbial

elephant in the room, to wit: you are a wealthy young man, which you

surely

are aware has been common knowledge in Meryton since your arrival here

last

Fall.

It would be entirely natural for you to suspect that my sending you this
letter is motivated by a desire on my part to have my daughter married

to a

wealthy young scion such as yourself, who also is a very amiable fellow

to

boot. If I were your father, I would certainly warn you against
fortune-hunters.

All I can say in response is first, I have been aware of all that since
your stay in Meryton, a period of several months, and yet I have never

been

tempted previously to write to you. It is only because of this very fresh
intelligence (which I am not at liberty to tell you how it came to my
notice) that I have realized that there is a real chance that your
courtship of Jane might resume if you knew the truth.

You are an intelligent man, you can judge the probabilities of my
truthfulness in this, but if it would be of help, I would refer you to my
daughter, Elizabeth, who also is privy to that same intelligence, and who
will vouch for my truthfulness.

And one last point which I believe is unnecessary but better safe than
sorry. Regardless of whether you respond positively or negatively to my
request, I am sure you understand that it would be for the best if you
never reveal it to anyone else, but most of all to Jane herself.”



ARNIE

I agree with most that the last thing a respectable young woman would
do wud be to ask a parent secretly to write. Parents don't act in
secret that way. They are authority figures for real. Ellen

On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 4:29?PM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

*NANCY*: “How mortifying for a daughter, especially one like Jane, to have
her father tell Bingley that she was in love with him. The father could ask
his intentions and suggest that he owed his daughter more than a quick
disappearance from her life. How is it greater morality to humiliate the
诲补耻驳丑迟别谤?”



I emphasized in my post that Jane would *never* know her father had
approached Bingley, based on the following:



If Bingley didn’t respond positively, Mr. Bennet already would have written
that he would never see him again, and Mr. Bennet would never tell anyone
except Elizabeth about the outcome of his mission, and Elizabeth would
never tell Jane.



If Bingley did respond positively, neither he nor Mr. Bennet would ever
tell Jane about Mr. Bennet’s mission, instead Bingley would just come back
in Chapter 52 and renew his advances to Jane, and say exactly what he said
to Jane in the novel, as reported to Elizabeth by Jane:



*“He has made me so happy,” said she, one evening, “by telling me that he
was totally ignorant of my being in town last spring! I had not believed it
辫辞蝉蝉颈产濒别.”*

“I suspected as much,” replied Elizabeth. “*But how did he account for 颈迟?”*

*“It must have been his sisters’ doing. *They were certainly no friends to
his acquaintance with me, which I cannot wonder at, since he might have
chosen so much more advantageously in many respects. But when they see, as
I trust they will, that their brother is happy with me, they will learn to
be contented, and we shall be on good terms again: though we can never be
what we once were to each other.”

“That is the most unforgiving speech,” said Elizabeth, “that I ever heard
you utter. Good girl! It would vex me, indeed, to see you again the dupe of
Miss 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 pretended regard.”

*“Would you believe it, Lizzy, that when he went to town last November he
really loved me, and nothing but a persuasion of my being indifferent would
have prevented his coming down again?”*

*“He made a little mistake, to be sure; but it is to the credit of his
尘辞诲别蝉迟测.”*

This naturally introduced a panegyric from Jane on his diffidence, and the
little value he put on his own good qualities.

*Elizabeth was pleased to find that he had not betrayed the interference of
his friend; for, though Jane had the most generous and forgiving heart in
the world, she knew it was a circumstance which must prejudice her against
丑颈尘.”*



So, there is no scenario in which Jane is either humiliated or mortified,
right?



*DOROTHY: “*Arnie, I agree with you Mr Bennet is too indolent a father to
bother to write a letter on Jane’s behalf.”



But…he does secretly go over to Netherfield to say hi to Bingley – that’s
precedent Elizabeth knows about for him sometimes pretending to be indolent.



*DOROTHY*: “But a more significant reason he wouldn’t take the step (or
rather, that Elizabeth would not urge him to) is that, first, though
Bingley was very much in love with Jane, and was convinced himself she
loved him in return, **he was persuaded by Darcy to believe she did not. He
trusted Darcy's judgement over his own.** Mr Darcy warned him of the
impropriety of the match, but also managed to convince him, probably
believed himself (though admits he may have been biased by his own wishes)
that Jane simply does not return 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 affections. Elizabeth more than
anyone knows of their friendship and 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 trust in 顿补谤肠测’蝉 箩耻诲驳别尘别苍迟.”



What Elizabeth knows from 顿补谤肠测’蝉 letter is this:



“There is but one part of my conduct in the whole affair on which I do not
reflect with satisfaction; it is, that I condescended to adopt the measures
of art so far as to conceal from him your sister's being in town. I knew it
myself, as it was known to Miss Bingley; ** *but her brother is even yet
ignorant of it.* ** That they might have met without ill consequence is
perhaps probable; but ***his regard did not appear to me enough
extinguished for him to see her without some danger.** *Perhaps this
concealment, this disguise was beneath me; it is done, however, and it was
done for the best. On this subject I have nothing more to say, no other
apology to offer. If I have wounded your sister's feelings, it was
unknowingly done; and though the motives which governed me may to you very
naturally appear insufficient, I have not yet learnt to condemn them.”



Elizabeth would have to be a very dull elf indeed not to infer from all of
that, that Bingley has stayed away from Jane for a combination of two
reasons: his trust in Darcy, and his unawareness of Jane’s trip to London.
Darcy himself concedes that if they had met, sparks might have flown again
between them.

Elizabeth now has the power to wipe that second reason away from 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉
mind, and yet, she fails to act, and instead rationalizes potential extra
pain for Jane, even though, as I stated to Nancy, above, that risk could be
completely eliminated, and a secret mission by Mr. Bennet could still have
a shot at success.



*DOROTHY*: “The second reason Mr Bennet would never take such a step
(other than the one of custom Nancy suggests) is that he is certainly not a
disinterested party – of *course* he would love to have his daughter marry
a wealthy young scion! His motives would be suspect, and again, Mr 顿补谤肠测’蝉
judgement of the family’s impropriety would only be confirmed.”



Nope, I don’t buy that one at all. You seem to accept 顿补谤肠测’蝉 view of what
is proper and what is not, I do not, HE is certainly not a “disinterested
party” in all of this, he is the one who drove a wedge between Bingley and
Jane, and doesn’t feel an ounce of remorse about it when he writes that
letter.



Mr. Bennet is nothing if not diplomatic, when he wants to be. Your comment
has been helpful, because now I would add the following to Mr. Bennet’s
hypothetical letter to Bingley:

“Before I close, let me not neglect, Mr. Bingley, to address the proverbial
elephant in the room, to wit: you are a wealthy young man, which you surely
are aware has been common knowledge in Meryton since your arrival here last
Fall.

It would be entirely natural for you to suspect that my sending you this
letter is motivated by a desire on my part to have my daughter married to a
wealthy young scion such as yourself, who also is a very amiable fellow to
boot. If I were your father, I would certainly warn you against
fortune-hunters.

All I can say in response is first, I have been aware of all that since
your stay in Meryton, a period of several months, and yet I have never been
tempted previously to write to you. It is only because of this very fresh
intelligence (which I am not at liberty to tell you how it came to my
notice) that I have realized that there is a real chance that your
courtship of Jane might resume if you knew the truth.

You are an intelligent man, you can judge the probabilities of my
truthfulness in this, but if it would be of help, I would refer you to my
daughter, Elizabeth, who also is privy to that same intelligence, and who
will vouch for my truthfulness.

And one last point which I believe is unnecessary but better safe than
sorry. Regardless of whether you respond positively or negatively to my
request, I am sure you understand that it would be for the best if you
never reveal it to anyone else, but most of all to Jane herself.”



ARNIE

*NANCY*: “How mortifying for a daughter, especially one like Jane, to have
her father tell Bingley that she was in love with him. The father could ask
his intentions and suggest that he owed his daughter more than a quick
disappearance from her life. How is it greater morality to humiliate the
诲补耻驳丑迟别谤?”



I emphasized in my post that Jane would *never* know her father had
approached Bingley, based on the following:



If Bingley didn’t respond positively, Mr. Bennet already would have written
that he would never see him again, and Mr. Bennet would never tell anyone
except Elizabeth about the outcome of his mission, and Elizabeth would
never tell Jane.



If Bingley did respond positively, neither he nor Mr. Bennet would ever
tell Jane about Mr. Bennet’s mission, instead Bingley would just come back
in Chapter 52 and renew his advances to Jane, and say exactly what he said
to Jane in the novel, as reported to Elizabeth by Jane:



*“He has made me so happy,” said she, one evening, “by telling me that he
was totally ignorant of my being in town last spring! I had not believed it
辫辞蝉蝉颈产濒别.”*

“I suspected as much,” replied Elizabeth. “*But how did he account for 颈迟?”*

*“It must have been his sisters’ doing. *They were certainly no friends to
his acquaintance with me, which I cannot wonder at, since he might have
chosen so much more advantageously in many respects. But when they see, as
I trust they will, that their brother is happy with me, they will learn to
be contented, and we shall be on good terms again: though we can never be
what we once were to each other.”

“That is the most unforgiving speech,” said Elizabeth, “that I ever heard
you utter. Good girl! It would vex me, indeed, to see you again the dupe of
Miss 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 pretended regard.”

*“Would you believe it, Lizzy, that when he went to town last November he
really loved me, and nothing but a persuasion of my being indifferent would
have prevented his coming down again?”*

*“He made a little mistake, to be sure; but it is to the credit of his
尘辞诲别蝉迟测.”*

This naturally introduced a panegyric from Jane on his diffidence, and the
little value he put on his own good qualities.

*Elizabeth was pleased to find that he had not betrayed the interference of
his friend; for, though Jane had the most generous and forgiving heart in
the world, she knew it was a circumstance which must prejudice her against
丑颈尘.”*



So, there is no scenario in which Jane is either humiliated or mortified,
right?



*DOROTHY: “*Arnie, I agree with you Mr Bennet is too indolent a father to
bother to write a letter on Jane’s behalf.”



But…he does secretly go over to Netherfield to say hi to Bingley – that’s
precedent Elizabeth knows about for him sometimes pretending to be indolent.



*DOROTHY*: “But a more significant reason he wouldn’t take the step (or
rather, that Elizabeth would not urge him to) is that, first, though
Bingley was very much in love with Jane, and was convinced himself she
loved him in return, **he was persuaded by Darcy to believe she did not. He
trusted Darcy's judgement over his own.** Mr Darcy warned him of the
impropriety of the match, but also managed to convince him, probably
believed himself (though admits he may have been biased by his own wishes)
that Jane simply does not return 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 affections. Elizabeth more than
anyone knows of their friendship and 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 trust in 顿补谤肠测’蝉 箩耻诲驳别尘别苍迟.”



What Elizabeth knows from 顿补谤肠测’蝉 letter is this:



“There is but one part of my conduct in the whole affair on which I do not
reflect with satisfaction; it is, that I condescended to adopt the measures
of art so far as to conceal from him your sister's being in town. I knew it
myself, as it was known to Miss Bingley; ** *but her brother is even yet
ignorant of it.* ** That they might have met without ill consequence is
perhaps probable; but ***his regard did not appear to me enough
extinguished for him to see her without some danger.** *Perhaps this
concealment, this disguise was beneath me; it is done, however, and it was
done for the best. On this subject I have nothing more to say, no other
apology to offer. If I have wounded your sister's feelings, it was
unknowingly done; and though the motives which governed me may to you very
naturally appear insufficient, I have not yet learnt to condemn them.”



Elizabeth would have to be a very dull elf indeed not to infer from all of
that, that Bingley has stayed away from Jane for a combination of two
reasons: his trust in Darcy, and his unawareness of Jane’s trip to London.
Darcy himself concedes that if they had met, sparks might have flown again
between them.

Elizabeth now has the power to wipe that second reason away from 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉
mind, and yet, she fails to act, and instead rationalizes potential extra
pain for Jane, even though, as I stated to Nancy, above, that risk could be
completely eliminated, and a secret mission by Mr. Bennet could still have
a shot at success.



*DOROTHY*: “The second reason Mr Bennet would never take such a step
(other than the one of custom Nancy suggests) is that he is certainly not a
disinterested party – of *course* he would love to have his daughter marry
a wealthy young scion! His motives would be suspect, and again, Mr 顿补谤肠测’蝉
judgement of the family’s impropriety would only be confirmed.”



Nope, I don’t buy that one at all. You seem to accept 顿补谤肠测’蝉 view of what
is proper and what is not, I do not, HE is certainly not a “disinterested
party” in all of this, he is the one who drove a wedge between Bingley and
Jane, and doesn’t feel an ounce of remorse about it when he writes that
letter.



Mr. Bennet is nothing if not diplomatic, when he wants to be. Your comment
has been helpful, because now I would add the following to Mr. Bennet’s
hypothetical letter to Bingley:

“Before I close, let me not neglect, Mr. Bingley, to address the proverbial
elephant in the room, to wit: you are a wealthy young man, which you surely
are aware has been common knowledge in Meryton since your arrival here last
Fall.

It would be entirely natural for you to suspect that my sending you this
letter is motivated by a desire on my part to have my daughter married to a
wealthy young scion such as yourself, who also is a very amiable fellow to
boot. If I were your father, I would certainly warn you against
fortune-hunters.

All I can say in response is first, I have been aware of all that since
your stay in Meryton, a period of several months, and yet I have never been
tempted previously to write to you. It is only because of this very fresh
intelligence (which I am not at liberty to tell you how it came to my
notice) that I have realized that there is a real chance that your
courtship of Jane might resume if you knew the truth.

You are an intelligent man, you can judge the probabilities of my
truthfulness in this, but if it would be of help, I would refer you to my
daughter, Elizabeth, who also is privy to that same intelligence, and who
will vouch for my truthfulness.

And one last point which I believe is unnecessary but better safe than
sorry. Regardless of whether you respond positively or negatively to my
request, I am sure you understand that it would be for the best if you
never reveal it to anyone else, but most of all to Jane herself.”



ARNIE

Arnie, I agree with you Mr Bennet is too indolent a father to bother to write a letter on Jane’s behalf. But a more significant reason he wouldn’t take the step (or rather, that Elizabeth would not urge him to) is that, first, though Bingley was very much in love with Jane, and was convinced himself she loved him in return, **he was persuaded by Darcy to believe she did not. He trusted Darcy's judgement over his own.** Mr Darcy warned him of the impropriety of the match, but also managed to convince him, probably believed himself (though admits he may have been biased by his own wishes) that Jane simply does not return 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 affections. Elizabeth more than anyone knows of their friendship and 叠颈苍驳濒别测’蝉 trust in 顿补谤肠测’蝉 judgement.

The second reason Mr Bennet would never take such a step (other than the one of custom Nancy suggests) is that he is certainly not a disinterested party – of *course* he would love to have his daughter marry a wealthy young scion! His motives would be suspect, and again, Mr 顿补谤肠测’蝉 judgement of the family’s impropriety would only be confirmed.

Dorothy

Congratulations, Ellen! What terrific news.

Dorothy

Many, many years ago, Ellen (in the days of Austen-L), I remember you comparing A Winter’s Tale with Persuasion, and the theme of ‘a second spring.’ As with many of your reflections, it’s stuck with me all these years.

Dorothy



2 new family members: Fiona, white & grey spots; sister Elinor
(Dashwood), Ellie-cat, grey & white, same litter; females born early
August. In cat bed; with foster mom; thru carrier mesh; in cat stack
w/holes for climbing in and out in Izzy's room. Born early 8/2024.
Thou mett'st w/things dying (beloved Ian & Clary), I w/things newborn
(Winter'sTale) Callooh callay she chortled in her joy

Ellen

How mortifying for a daughter , especially one like Jame , to have her
father tell Bingley that she was in love with him. The father could ask
his intentions and suggest that he owed his daughter more than a quick
disappearance from her life. How is it greater morality to humiliate the
daughter?

Nancy

On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 9:15?PM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

NANCY: "It just wasn't done to tell a man that one's daughter was in love
with him."

Just wasn't done sounds to me like empty propriety. I'm asking for a
discussion of how to balance propriety with morality. Sometimes a good
person breaks rules of decorum for a higher moral purpose - in this, for
love (his daughter's love of a good man).

NANCY: "What one could do, is see the man and tell him that after he had
shown Jane such distinction, had raised hopes in the breasts of Jane and
her family, and by his attention, deterred other gentlemen and then ask if
he was just trifling with his daughter's affections. Bingley wasn't a cad
just not a snob like Darcy."

Interesting take.

This is the letter I came up, feel free to suggest how you might word it
differently, if you agree with the concept:



Mr. Charles Bingley

London, England



My dear Mr. Bingley,



My dear sir, be not be alarmed to receive this letter from me out of the
blue, after many months since we were last in company in Meryton. Please be
assured from the start that I am, fortunately, not the bearer of any bad
news of a medical or financial nature. All the members of my family are in
good health, thankfully, and my income remains stable. I hope the same is
true of yours.



Nonetheless, the matter I am writing to you about is of a delicate,
personal, and urgent nature, and so I beg your indulgence to hear me out, I
will be as brief as possible. I write to you in the sincere belief that I
am delivering to you intelligence that may well be of the greatest
importance to you.



To begin, after what seemed to everyone in Meryton to be a very promising
beginning of a courtship by yourself of my eldest daughter Jane this past
Fall, we Bennets have been disappointed that you have since the end of
November made no attempt to contact or see her.



In particular, I personally vouch to you that Jane, despite her efforts to
put on a brave face, has never ceased over these several months to feel
great sadness over the sudden end of your connection to you.



However, I am writing to you now, because some surprising and concerning
news of a reliable nature has come to my attention very recently, to wit –
that you are very likely completely unaware that Jane was so determined to
see you again that she came to visit with her aunt and uncle Gardiner in
London in January and stayed for a period of weeks, calling at your
residence and leaving notes requesting that you be alerted to her presence
in London - until finally it was made clear to Jane that you were no longer
interested in her, but you had, in fact, set your cap at another young
lady.



In that regard, let me now pause and reassure you of a critical point –
neither I nor anyone else in my family is suggesting that you are, or ever
were, obligated, by law or honor, to continue your courtship of Jane – we
all know that you were never engaged to her. Therefore, if this news I am
now delivering to you is not meaningful to you, then just say the word to
me by return message, no further explanation required on your part, and you
will never hear from me again. The last thing I wish to do to such an
agreeable young man like yourself is to make you feel guilty; or, even
worse, to feel obliged to reopen your connection to Jane solely or
primarily out of sympathy for her. No marriage based on mutual love should
be based on such a shaky foundation.



However, I write to you in real hope that your reaction to this news will
be very different than that, and that the warm affection you seemed to feel
for Jane last Fall has never waned. To wit, I am hoping that this news will
not mortify, but instead electrify, you. If so, as some might put it, “Go
to it, young man”. Your relationship with Jane was kindled when I came on a
secret welcoming embassy at Netherfield last Fall, and I sincerely hope
that my current embassy will have a similar effect.



Please take your time and give this letter, which I hope has not come as
too much of a shock to you, as much consideration you wish. I will remain
at my temporary lodgings at _________ till ______ __. One way or the other,
please honor me with your reply when you are ready. If I haven’t heard back
from you by that date, then I will assume a negative response, and return
to Longbourn, knowing that I did what any father would do for a beloved
daughter, but it was for naught.


As they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained.



Sincerely,



_______ Bennet, Esq.

.


On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 8:28?PM Arnie Perlstein via groups.io
<arnieperlstein@...> wrote:

Beginning with Elizabeth Bennet’s stroll with Colonel Fitzwilliam, and

then

continuing during 顿补谤肠测’蝉 botched first proposal, and then in his

letter

to

Elizabeth, Elizabeth Bennet comes to learn that Bingley has been kept

in

the dark by Miss Bingley and Darcy since leaving Meryton about Jane’s
continuing interest in him, which is what brought Jane to London a few
months after he left.



Elizabeth is thus uniquely situated by Chapter 36 in her knowledge that
Bingley may still be romantically interested in Jane, and she already

knew

all along that Jane was definitely still romantically interested in
Bingley. It’s an old romantic trope, the two lovers who each don’t

realize

that the other is still in love with them.



I suggest that once Elizabeth has this unique knowledge (the only other
character who also knows is Darcy, but he has made it clear,

arrogantly,

that he stands by his actions to keep Bingley in the dark about Jane),

she

does absolutely nothing to try to somehow let each of the lovebirds

know

about the other, which might cause Bingley to wake up and (as Darcy

puts

it

in the 1996 miniseries, “go to it”). When she does think about telling
Jane, she decides that it would only make Jane even sadder, since, so

her

thinking seems to go, it would be a fool’s errand, it would not bring
Bingley back.



I advocate for Elizabeth to persuade her father to covertly seek out
Bingley in London, and inform Bingley of this crucial fact that Jane

still

loves him. I am not suggesting that Elizabeth tell Jane directly, not
unless and until her father was successful.



Two counterarguments to mine come to mind:



FIRST:

Mr. Bennet is indolent, not a responsible diligent father, so even if
Elizabeth asked, he would refuse to intervene. But, given the stakes

for

Jane, shouldn't Elizabeth give it a try with him anyway, what does she

have

to lose? It would be for Jane’s sake, so it would be the generous thing

for

Elizabeth to do. But this possibility never even occurs to Elizabeth.

Also,

in Chapter 41, Elizabeth does try to get her father to stop Lydia and

Kitty

from going to Brighton. But she doesn’t ask him to do something he

already

did, in a different way, at the beginning of the novel, which is to go

on a

secret romantic mission to Bingley!



And…. last but not least, Elizabeth doesn’t even think the thought of
asking her father, it never even occurs to her. Her mind is totally
occupied, I would suggest, with increasingly obsessive thoughts and

regrets

about Darcy, so it appears there’s no room for thoughts about Jane.



Even when she is at Pemberley with her aunt and uncle, and 顿补谤肠测’蝉

being

so

nice to them and to her – it never occurs to her even then that she

might

ask him to reconsider about Jane and Bingley. No, that would risk him
getting angry at her, and sending her on her way home.



SECOND: I actually made up a hypothetical letter that Mr. Bennet could
arrange to have delivered to Bingley in London without being detected

by

either Caroline Bingley or Darcy. The letter doesn’t threaten Bingley,

it

doesn’t try to make him feel guilty, it recognizes the delicacy of the
situation, and it makes Mr. Bennet’s good intentions perfectly clear,

and

gives Bingley an easy out if he is not interested, for any reason, in
restarting with Jane.



Would that be “improper” for Mr. Bennet to write such a letter? But

why

would it be improper for a respectable gentleman like Mr. Bennet if he
wrote a carefully worded, non-threatening letter of information to

another

gentleman, about a matter of great personal interest to both of them,

and

to the woman they both share affection for – Jane? Why would that be

more

improper than Mr. Bennet going over to Netherfield at the beginning of

the

novel to introduce Bingley to the Bennet family and all his daughters,
which everyone thought was a great move by him.



More important, though, this got me thinking deeply about the

distinction

between “propriety” and “morality”. Even if hypothetically, someone

could

argue that it was not normal Regency Era decorum for Mr. Bennet to
intervene in this way, I would think that everyone would agree that

this

was a very moral thing for Mr. Bennet to do. It would be a mission of
mercy, a mission of love, with pure motives and a possibility it could

lead

to the righting of a very bad wrong – two people who love each other

having

been separated for no good reason at all.



I don't believe Jane Austen valued propriety and protocol over true

love.

Isn't such propriety what Austen ridicules strongly when Mr. Bennet

reacts

to Mr. Collins’s letter:

“I must not, however, neglect the duties of my station, or refrain from
declaring my amazement, at hearing that you received the young couple

into

your house as soon as they were married. It was an encouragement of

vice;

and had I been the rector of Longbourn, I should very strenuously have
opposed it. You ought certainly to forgive them as a Christian, but

never

to admit them in your sight, or allow their names to be mentioned in

your

hearing.’ That is his notion of Christian forgiveness!”



Mr. Bennet would, I conclude, find a mission to Bingley to be a mission

of

charity and generosity. He would risk looking improper, out of love for

his

daughter Jane.



What do you all think, about any of the above?



ARNIE