|
I'm currently looking for any patents released for the HP 8662/3A,
mostly to determine if there's any information about the firmware that
will help in debugging a faulty DCU. HP released the source code for
other equipment (e.g., the 8510) in patents.
However, my difficulty in tracking down associated patents raises the
somewhat broader question of how to reliably find patents for
devices. Currently my methods feel a bit imprecise: I go to
patents.google.com and set the patent office and language, and the
assignee to "Hewlett-Packard Company". Then, I try to determine when the
instrument was released and set the filing date range for several years
before and after this date. I also don't have a robust way currently to
determine the date the instrument was released. However, in this case
the February 1981 Journal featured the HP 8662A, so that's the date I'm
searching around. Finally, I add search terms such as "signal generator"
or "synthesized signal generator" to narrow the results.
This method will still leave 100+ entries to sift through. Moreover,
it's not always entirely trivial to determine which patents are
associated with a particular instrument. For instance, I found
US4323959, which I believe applies to the 8662A. However, this required
knowing that the 8662/3 use a switching power supply with an inverter,
which was unusual and novel for an instrument like this at that time.
Is there a better way?
The Motorola 6800 page
() lists patents
associated with that family of devices. And, the language makes it sound
like these are all the associated patents. So, maybe there's a better
way to find all the patents for a device?
Thanks
Matt
|
Don't know if it helps, but can you search against Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is that Grant is almost certainly going to be after product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During development, there is often little time to do the patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers (may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE. DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee $100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and 8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was granted (but it was submitted first).
Pete
|
I believe that a patent must be filed before the product hits the market!
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Show quoted text
On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete) <saipan1959@...> wrote:
?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is that Grant is almost certainly going to be after product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During development, there is often little time to do the patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers (may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE. DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee $100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and 8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was granted (but it was submitted first).
Pete
|
Having worked as a design engineer I can tell you a little bit about how the process worked at least at the company I worked at , usually it’s the design engineer who files what is called a patent disclosure ,? this contains normally a
outline of the idea , drawings and a brief explanation , this info goes to the legal department where it is examined by a patent lawyer for merit , if the legal folks say that the idea has merit than they draft a formal patent application and during the process
request sometimes additional information from the engineer who wrote the initial disclosure and then file the application with the USPTO , this is usually done early in the design process so the provisional patent usually is issued long before the design goes
into pre-production or released for final production
?
Sent from for Windows
?
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From: saipan59 (Pete) via groups.io
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2022 4:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment
?
Don't know if it helps, but can you search against Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is that Grant is almost certainly going to be after product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During development, there is often
little time to do the patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers (may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE. DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret,
so no need for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee $100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and 8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was granted
(but it was submitted first).
Pete
|
? Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.?
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Show quoted text
On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io <k5urg@...> wrote:
? I believe that a patent must be filed before the product hits the market! On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete) <saipan1959@...> wrote:
?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is that Grant is almost certainly going to be after product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During development, there is often little time to do the patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers (may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE. DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee $100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and 8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was granted (but it was submitted first).
Pete
|
No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing. The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial.? That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent. ? I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing.? The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important.? Many patents take years to be awarded. ? Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees. ?Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them. ?Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives ?that matched funding available for patents with business needs. ? Best, Francesco K5URG ? ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Steve - Home Sent: Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment ? ?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.?
On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io <k5urg@...> wrote:
?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product hits the market! ?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is that Grant is almost certainly going to be after product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During development, there is often little time to do the patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers (may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE. DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee $100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and 8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was granted (but it was submitted first).
Pete
|
I think you missed the point. There are many products already on the shelves of resellers with the “patent pending” mark on them. You don’t have to have a patent to put a product into production. That is a self-imposed requirement to protect intellectual property and keep patent attorneys employed. And a smart move I should add. Granted, you probably won’t see a Keysight product with a “patent pending” mark, or anything with big money intellectual property involved, but have a look around, they’re out there.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 21, 2022, at 5:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io <k5urg@...> wrote:
? No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing. The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial.? That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent. ? I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing.? The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important.? Many patents take years to be awarded. ? Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees. ?Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them. ?Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives ?that matched funding available for patents with business needs. ? Best, Francesco K5URG ? ? ? ?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.?
On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io <k5urg@...> wrote:
?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product hits the market! ?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is that Grant is almost certainly going to be after product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During development, there is often little time to do the patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers (may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE. DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee $100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and 8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was granted (but it was submitted first).
Pete
|
I did not say that the patent must be awarded before production! ? I said that a patent application must be SUBMITED BEFORE disclosure or production. ?Once the item hits production, the patent office will reject the application! ? Best, Francesco K5URG ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Steve - Home Sent: Monday, February 21, 2022 5:51 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment ? I think you missed the point. There are many products already on the shelves of resellers with the “patent pending” mark on them. You don’t have to have a patent to put a product into production. That is a self-imposed requirement to protect intellectual property and keep patent attorneys employed. And a smart move I should add. Granted, you probably won’t see a Keysight product with a “patent pending” mark, or anything with big money intellectual property involved, but have a look around, they’re out there.?
On Feb 21, 2022, at 5:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io <k5urg@...> wrote:
? No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing. The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial.? That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent. ? I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing.? The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important.? Many patents take years to be awarded. ? Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees. ?Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them. ?Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives ?that matched funding available for patents with business needs. ? Best, Francesco K5URG ? ? ? ?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.?
On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io <k5urg@...> wrote:
?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product hits the market! ?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is that Grant is almost certainly going to be after product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During development, there is often little time to do the patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers (may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE. DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee $100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and 8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was granted (but it was submitted first).
Pete
|
In all reality china and foreign students have changed the game quite a bit , ?back in the days Development was done in the US , most if not all of the design engineers were US Citizens or hailed from “friendly” countries ( we had folks
from great Britain and then later on at nokia we had a few from finland )? , the prototyping or pre-production was done in the US or in the case of nokia finland and production was done in the US ,? now you have foreign especially Chinese folks embedded in
r+d departments and production is done in china , good luck trying to hold china or Chinese nationals accountable for patent violations
?
Sent from for Windows
?
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Show quoted text
From: Steve - Home via groups.io
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2022 5:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment
?
I think you missed the point. There are many products already on the shelves of resellers with the “patent pending” mark on them. You don’t have to have a patent to put a product into production. That is a self-imposed
requirement to protect intellectual property and keep patent attorneys employed. And a smart move I should add. Granted, you probably won’t see a Keysight product with a “patent pending” mark, or anything with big money intellectual property involved, but
have a look around, they’re out there.?
On Feb 21, 2022, at 5:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io <k5urg@...> wrote:
?
No,
you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.
The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial.?
That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.
?
I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing.?
The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important.? Many patents take years to be awarded.
?
Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees. ?Patent committees accepted
and rejected ideas and graded them. ?Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives ?that matched funding available for patents with business needs.
?
Best, Francesco K5URG
?
?
?
?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured
that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.?
On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io <k5urg@...> wrote:
?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product hits the market!
?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is that Grant is almost certainly going to be after product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During development, there is often
little time to do the patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers (may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE. DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret,
so no need for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee $100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and 8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was granted
(but it was submitted first).
Pete
|
To be clear, once an application has been made there is considerable protection until the patent is issued. As someone mentioned there are lots of patent applied for notices on manufactured items.
?? Also, Some companies relied more on trade secret protection. Eastman Kodak did this for many years because there is no time limit on it. They began to rely more on patents when the rate of discovery of new products became rapid enough for a patent to last through the market life. A trade secret can protect one against having a product design stolen but not against independent discovery.
?? Patent law seems to be extremely convoluted although it still not as bad as copyright law.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2/21/2022 3:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io wrote:
No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.
The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial.? That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.
I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing.? The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important. Many patents take years to be awarded.
Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees. ?Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them. ?Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives ?that matched funding available for patents with business needs.
Best, Francesco K5URG
*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Steve - Home
*Sent:* Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment
?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.
Steve
On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io
<k5urg@...> wrote:
?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product
hits the market!
On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete)
<saipan1959@...> wrote:
?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against
Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is
that Grant is almost certainly going to be after
product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During
development, there is often little time to do the
patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers
(may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and
they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE.
DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In
the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee
of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in
Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need
for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply
submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee
$100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid
another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and
8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was
granted (but it was submitted first).
Pete
--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@...
WB6KBL
|
A classic example of trade secret protection is the formula for Coke. Patents expire, but trade secret protection lasts as long as the secret can be kept.
Tom
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2/21/2022 4:45 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote: To be clear, once an application has been made there is considerable protection until the patent is issued. As someone mentioned there are lots of patent applied for notices on manufactured items.
Also, Some companies relied more on trade secret protection. Eastman Kodak did this for many years because there is no time limit on it. They began to rely more on patents when the rate of discovery of new products became rapid enough for a patent to last through the market life. A trade secret can protect one against having a product design stolen but not against independent discovery.
Patent law seems to be extremely convoluted although it still not as bad as copyright law.
On 2/21/2022 3:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io wrote:
No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.
The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial. That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.
I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing. The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important. Many patents take years to be awarded.
Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees. Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them. Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives that matched funding available for patents with business needs.
Best, Francesco K5URG
*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Steve - Home
*Sent:* Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment
?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.
Steve
On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io
<k5urg@...> wrote:
?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product
hits the market!
On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete)
<saipan1959@...> wrote:
?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against
Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is
that Grant is almost certainly going to be after
product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During
development, there is often little time to do the
patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers
(may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and
they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE.
DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In
the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee
of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in
Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need
for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply
submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee
$100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid
another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and
8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was
granted (but it was submitted first).
Pete
--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
|
Hi Pete:
There are a number of ways.
In general there are two search engines.? The USPTO and Google.
The good news is that Google has used Optical Character Recognition
(OCR) and so you can search all of their data base for any word
anywhere.
The bad news is that Google has used Optical Character Recognition
which has many mistakes, so there are odds associated with any
search.
- this is the basic patent number search and for United States
patent number the first two characters need to be US.
At the bottom of that page there's a link to the Advanced Search
where you have a lot more options.
The Google patent result pages can be trimmed back so that they end
with the patent number, a very convenient situation.
The USPTO has a number of web pages for searching.? But they use
.tif format for the patents, i.e. no OCR and the searches can only
be done on the fields they have digitized.
This is the patent number search (good for getting class numbers):
This is the Quick search:?
Notice the select years drop down box.? When you select 1976 to
present there are many more fields available to search.
When 1790 to present there are fewer fields available.? There was a
patent office fire in 1836 so some patents are no longer available.
The URL for a search result is not permanent nor is the result of a
patent number search.
ALL patents are issued on a Tuesday.? So? you can check? a patent
date using a Calendar to confirm the patent is on a Tuesday.? If the
date is not on a Tuesday there's a typo.
My web pages are filled with patents on all kinds of things
including HP instruments.? Here's an old list:
And a general discussion:
I used to visit the Sunnyvale, California patent office and it turns
out they are the only one where the patents are filed by
Class/Sub-class numbers.? NOT in patent number order.
This allows for easy searching once you know the class numbers for
the general area.
If you let me know more specifics I may be able to help.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.
|
And McDonald’s secret sauce and KFC’s “11 herbs and spices” ?
Steve
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 21, 2022, at 6:53 PM, Tom Lee <tomlee@...> wrote:
?A classic example of trade secret protection is the formula for Coke. Patents expire, but trade secret protection lasts as long as the secret can be kept.
Tom
On 2/21/2022 4:45 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
To be clear, once an application has been made there is considerable protection until the patent is issued. As someone mentioned there are lots of patent applied for notices on manufactured items.
Also, Some companies relied more on trade secret protection. Eastman Kodak did this for many years because there is no time limit on it. They began to rely more on patents when the rate of discovery of new products became rapid enough for a patent to last through the market life. A trade secret can protect one against having a product design stolen but not against independent discovery.
Patent law seems to be extremely convoluted although it still not as bad as copyright law.
On 2/21/2022 3:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io wrote:
No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.
The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial. That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.
I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing. The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important. Many patents take years to be awarded.
Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees. Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them. Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives that matched funding available for patents with business needs.
Best, Francesco K5URG
*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Steve - Home
*Sent:* Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment
?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.
Steve
On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io
<k5urg@...> wrote:
?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product
hits the market!
On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete)
<saipan1959@...> wrote:
?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against
Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is
that Grant is almost certainly going to be after
product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During
development, there is often little time to do the
patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers
(may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and
they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE.
DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In
the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee
of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in
Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need
for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply
submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee
$100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid
another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and
8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was
granted (but it was submitted first).
Pete
--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
|
Exactly. I have somewhere (in my storage somewhere) an anniversary book from Kodak Research Labs. It talks about how difficult it was for the labs to communicate with the manufacturing division because they kept everything secret including the changes they made in the research the labs sent. It is rumored that during George Eastman's time only three people in the corporation knew the whole process for making film. At some point, probably in the 1960s the determined that the processes were changing fast enough for patent protection to make sense so started applying for patents although they continued to keep some things secret. If I could find the book I could write more details.
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On 2/21/2022 4:52 PM, Tom Lee wrote: A classic example of trade secret protection is the formula for Coke. Patents expire, but trade secret protection lasts as long as the secret can be kept.
Tom
On 2/21/2022 4:45 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
?? To be clear, once an application has been made there is considerable protection until the patent is issued. As someone mentioned there are lots of patent applied for notices on manufactured items.
?? Also, Some companies relied more on trade secret protection. Eastman Kodak did this for many years because there is no time limit on it. They began to rely more on patents when the rate of discovery of new products became rapid enough for a patent to last through the market life. A trade secret can protect one against having a product design stolen but not against independent discovery.
?? Patent law seems to be extremely convoluted although it still not as bad as copyright law.
On 2/21/2022 3:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io wrote:
No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.
The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial.? That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.
I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing.? The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important. Many patents take years to be awarded.
Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees.? Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them.? Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives? that matched funding available for patents with business needs.
Best, Francesco K5URG
*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Steve - Home
*Sent:* Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment
?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.
Steve
??? On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io
??? <k5urg@...> wrote:
??? ?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product
??? hits the market!
??????? On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete)
??????? <saipan1959@...> wrote:
??????? ?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against
??????? Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is
??????? that Grant is almost certainly going to be after
??????? product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During
??????? development, there is often little time to do the
??????? patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers
??????? (may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and
??????? they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
??????? Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE.
??????? DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In
??????? the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee
??????? of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in
??????? Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need
??????? for a patent."
??????? But HP was very generous with patents. Simply
??????? submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee
??????? $100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid
??????? another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and
??????? 8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was
??????? granted (but it was submitted first).
??????? Pete
--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@...
WB6KBL
|
USPTO does offer PDF copies of patents but you are right that Google has better search facilities. There is also another search engine which has European patents on it but I am not good at working it and don't have much detail. Because I am interested in the history of technology (and other history too) I have gotten reasonably good at searching out patents and reading patentise. Some patents are written to disguise as much as possible the exact information they contain, others, for instance Kodak patents are relatively clear an often have a lot of useful information in them.
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On 2/21/2022 4:59 PM, Brooke Clarke via groups.io wrote: Hi Pete:
There are a number of ways.
In general there are two search engines.? The USPTO and Google.
The good news is that Google has used Optical Character Recognition (OCR) and so you can search all of their data base for any word anywhere.
The bad news is that Google has used Optical Character Recognition which has many mistakes, so there are odds associated with any search.
<> - this is the basic patent number search and for United States patent number the first two characters need to be US.
At the bottom of that page there's a link to the Advanced Search where you have a lot more options.
The Google patent result pages can be trimmed back so that they end with the patent number, a very convenient situation.
The USPTO has a number of web pages for searching.? But they use .tif format for the patents, i.e. no OCR and the searches can only be done on the fields they have digitized.
This is the patent number search (good for getting class numbers):
This is the Quick search:
Notice the select years drop down box.? When you select 1976 to present there are many more fields available to search.
When 1790 to present there are fewer fields available.? There was a patent office fire in 1836 so some patents are no longer available.
The URL for a search result is not permanent nor is the result of a patent number search.
ALL patents are issued on a Tuesday.? So? you can check? a patent date using a Calendar to confirm the patent is on a Tuesday.? If the date is not on a Tuesday there's a typo.
My web pages are filled with patents on all kinds of things including HP instruments.? Here's an old list:
And a general discussion:
I used to visit the Sunnyvale, California patent office and it turns out they are the only one where the patents are filed by Class/Sub-class numbers.? NOT in patent number order.
This allows for easy searching once you know the class numbers for the general area.
If you let me know more specifics I may be able to help.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.
--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@...
WB6KBL
|
McDonald's secret sauce is, I am sure, Bob's Big Boy thousand island dressing. The Big Mac is very similar to the Big Boy except the Big Boy has more flavor. Bob's was a favorite hangout when I was in highschool (the Toluca Lake one).
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On 2/21/2022 5:13 PM, Steve - Home wrote: And McDonald’s secret sauce and KFC’s “11 herbs and spices” ?
Steve
On Feb 21, 2022, at 6:53 PM, Tom Lee <tomlee@...> wrote:
?A classic example of trade secret protection is the formula for Coke. Patents expire, but trade secret protection lasts as long as the secret can be kept.
Tom
On 2/21/2022 4:45 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
To be clear, once an application has been made there is considerable protection until the patent is issued. As someone mentioned there are lots of patent applied for notices on manufactured items.
Also, Some companies relied more on trade secret protection. Eastman Kodak did this for many years because there is no time limit on it. They began to rely more on patents when the rate of discovery of new products became rapid enough for a patent to last through the market life. A trade secret can protect one against having a product design stolen but not against independent discovery.
Patent law seems to be extremely convoluted although it still not as bad as copyright law.
On 2/21/2022 3:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io wrote:
No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.
The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial. That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.
I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing. The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important. Many patents take years to be awarded.
Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees. Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them. Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives that matched funding available for patents with business needs.
Best, Francesco K5URG
*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Steve - Home
*Sent:* Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment
?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.
Steve
On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io
<k5urg@...> wrote:
?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product
hits the market!
On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete)
<saipan1959@...> wrote:
?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against
Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is
that Grant is almost certainly going to be after
product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During
development, there is often little time to do the
patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers
(may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and
they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE.
DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In
the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee
of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in
Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need
for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply
submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee
$100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid
another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and
8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was
granted (but it was submitted first).
Pete
--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@...
WB6KBL
|
Ok, I'm all for a bit of off-topic conversation once in a while, but..
-Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2/21/22 22:39, Richard Knoppow wrote: ? McDonald's secret sauce is, I am sure, Bob's Big Boy thousand island dressing. The Big Mac is very similar to the Big Boy except the Big Boy has more flavor. Bob's was a favorite hangout when I was in highschool (the Toluca Lake one).
On 2/21/2022 5:13 PM, Steve - Home wrote:
And McDonald’s secret sauce and KFC’s “11 herbs and spices” ?
Steve
On Feb 21, 2022, at 6:53 PM, Tom Lee <tomlee@...> wrote:
?A classic example of trade secret protection is the formula for Coke. Patents expire, but trade secret protection lasts as long as the secret can be kept.
Tom
On 2/21/2022 4:45 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
?? To be clear, once an application has been made there is considerable protection until the patent is issued. As someone mentioned there are lots of patent applied for notices on manufactured items.
?? Also, Some companies relied more on trade secret protection. Eastman Kodak did this for many years because there is no time limit on it. They began to rely more on patents when the rate of discovery of new products became rapid enough for a patent to last through the market life. A trade secret can protect one against having a product design stolen but not against independent discovery.
?? Patent law seems to be extremely convoluted although it still not as bad as copyright law.
On 2/21/2022 3:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io wrote:
No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.
The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial.? That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.
I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing.? The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important. Many patents take years to be awarded.
Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees.? Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them.? Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives? that matched funding available for patents with business needs.
Best, Francesco K5URG
*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Steve - Home
*Sent:* Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment
?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.
Steve
??? On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io
??? <k5urg@...> wrote:
??? ?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product
??? hits the market!
??????? On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete)
??????? <saipan1959@...> wrote:
??????? ?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against
??????? Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is
??????? that Grant is almost certainly going to be after
??????? product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During
??????? development, there is often little time to do the
??????? patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers
??????? (may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and
??????? they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
??????? Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE.
??????? DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In
??????? the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee
??????? of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in
??????? Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need
??????? for a patent."
??????? But HP was very generous with patents. Simply
??????? submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee
??????? $100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid
??????? another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and
??????? 8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was
??????? granted (but it was submitted first).
??????? Pete
--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
|
In trying to find patents that apply to specific models, I’ve found that the HP Journal article that introduced the instrument to be helpful. Knowing the names of the author and those he acknowledges gives you a helpful starting point to narrow the patent search.
Cheers
Tom
Sent from my iThing; please forgive the typos and brevity
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On Feb 21, 2022, at 19:39, Richard Knoppow <dickburk@...> wrote:
? McDonald's secret sauce is, I am sure, Bob's Big Boy thousand island dressing. The Big Mac is very similar to the Big Boy except the Big Boy has more flavor. Bob's was a favorite hangout when I was in highschool (the Toluca Lake one).
On 2/21/2022 5:13 PM, Steve - Home wrote:
And McDonald’s secret sauce and KFC’s “11 herbs and spices” ?
Steve
On Feb 21, 2022, at 6:53 PM, Tom Lee <tomlee@...> wrote: ?A classic example of trade secret protection is the formula for Coke. Patents expire, but trade secret protection lasts as long as the secret can be kept.
Tom
On 2/21/2022 4:45 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
To be clear, once an application has been made there is considerable protection until the patent is issued. As someone mentioned there are lots of patent applied for notices on manufactured items.
Also, Some companies relied more on trade secret protection. Eastman Kodak did this for many years because there is no time limit on it. They began to rely more on patents when the rate of discovery of new products became rapid enough for a patent to last through the market life. A trade secret can protect one against having a product design stolen but not against independent discovery.
Patent law seems to be extremely convoluted although it still not as bad as copyright law.
On 2/21/2022 3:38 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io wrote:
No, you cannot apply for a patent if the invention has already been publicly disclosed. Public disclosure includes going to mass manufacturing.
The patent checklist a Rockwell International and Northern Telecom included items such a date first customer trial. That date was used by the attorneys to figure out when they needed to apply for a patent.
I have 4 patents, and a key condition for the application was any possible disclosure and that included manufacturing. The application date is key, as the actual award date is not important. Many patents take years to be awarded.
Regarding big companies, new possible patentable ideas were presented to patent committees. Patent committees accepted and rejected ideas and graded them. Once the grading was done, the decision went to the executives that matched funding available for patents with business needs.
Best, Francesco K5URG
*From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Steve - Home
*Sent:* Monday, February 21, 2022 5:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] How to find patents for HP equipment
?Not at all, you can go into production at any time. But you do risk “spilling the beans” before the patent protection kicks in. Lots of devices out there with “patent pending” stamped on them. I always figured that was grist for patent poachers and idea thieves.
Steve
On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:59 PM, Francesco Ledda via groups.io
<k5urg@...> wrote:
?I believe that a patent must be filed before the product
hits the market!
On Feb 21, 2022, at 16:48, saipan59 (Pete)
<saipan1959@...> wrote:
?Don't know if it helps, but can you search against
Grant Date, rather than Filing Date? My thinking is
that Grant is almost certainly going to be after
product release, so maybe it's a narrower range. During
development, there is often little time to do the
patent stuff. But closer to Release time, the designers
(may) be less busy, the design details are firm, and
they can think about patentable stuff. I could be wrong...
Trivia: My career was with DEC, then with HP and HPE.
DEC was "stingy" about spending money for patents. In
the late 80's I submitted a Disclosure as an employee
of Manufacturing. DEC said basically "good idea, but in
Manufacturing we can just keep it a secret, so no need
for a patent."
But HP was very generous with patents. Simply
submitting the disclosure paperwork paid the employee
$100. If the patent was actually granted, they paid
another $1000. I got two in my career (8184982 and
8648568) - the second one took 4 years until it was
granted (but it was submitted first).
Pete
--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@...
WB6KBL
|
Getting more back on topic, my original point was that a narrower search filter might be either: Filing date (before release), or Grant date (after release)? The assumption being that Grant is unlikely to occur before Release, and Filing is unlikely after Release.
Also, my impression was that the important "start date" is NOT the filing date, but rather the earliest date that the inventor can show documentation of the idea, which can include hand-written notes in a notebook, or other means. I remember I was required to provide that type of info early in the process. And I just read online that the U.S. had (prior to 2013) a 1-year grace period to allow filing after "disclosure".
Pete
|
Hi Pete,
In the US, it once was "first to invent". That is no more; it is now
"first to file", in sync with (most of) the rest of the world.
--Tom
--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 2/21/2022 20:07, saipan59 (Pete)
wrote:
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Show quoted text
Getting more back on topic, my original point was that a narrower
search filter might be either: Filing date (before release), or
Grant date (after release)? The assumption being that Grant is
unlikely to occur before Release, and Filing is unlikely after
Release.
Also, my impression was that the important "start date" is NOT the
filing date, but rather the earliest date that the inventor can
show documentation of the idea, which can include hand-written
notes in a notebook, or other means. I remember I was required to
provide that type of info early in the process. And I just read
online that the U.S. had (prior to 2013) a 1-year grace period to
allow filing after "disclosure".
Pete
|
saipan59 (Pete)
Dave McGuire