|
?
?
-- Would anyone be able to do GC or GC-MS on the Hp 2225 ThinkJet Black ink, from a mostly depleted ink cartridge ?
&
-- Could anyone supply an almost empty ThinkJet Black ink cartridge ( there are two (2) types )? ?
???? ( Probably only < 100uL to < 500uL of the Black Ink sample is all that might be required;
?
?????? ( that would be? ~ 5 to 10 drops of liquid? remaining in an old? 9226a? Or? 51604a?? ThinkJet ink Cartridge )
?
Apparently two types of the ThinkJet ink chemistries exist:
From 1984:??? Hp Thinkjet ink: Hp 9226a ink cartridge, black ( for use on "treated paper" )
Revised Nov. 1995: ?? Hp 51604A ink cartridge, black ( for use on Plain paper )?
?
Would be nicer to have the results from both types.
?
If anyone can send me some almost empty cartridges,? of either type,
? Please Private Msg. me ( Off List ),
?
thank you,
rick
?
re:
/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/message/147612
?
?
|
You'd likely need to perform GCMS to resolve all components within the ink.? When working with unkowns, GC is a bit more difficult.? Generally you need to know the analyte of interest.? And you need to have a std for it to match the retention time.? With GC-MS you can reference libraries for specific mass spectrums.? There would also need to be some method development involved.? They would need to find the right GC column, the correct solvent to dissolve the sample in, and sample preparation.? Then of course the method development required for the GC program run itself.? Unless of course you find someone who works in lab analyzing similar types of compounds - this will already be in place.? Would be an interesting project for an analytical chemist (that is what I used to do prior to my current job) but I no longer have access to that instrumentation.??
|
And it will likely be done on an Agilent/HP GC-MS (6890s are a workhorse)!! They are still the best gas chromatographs out there IMO.
|
?
Yup:?
??? Anyone have access to a GC-MS lab that might want to elucidate the ThinkJet ink adventure ?
?
Expected major components in the? Hp 51604A ?Thinkjet black ink cartridge:
? ?( ?3.0mL to 3.7mL ; 0.13 fOz)
?
2-Pyrrolidone
Ethelyne Glycol
Food Back 2
Acid Salt 3
water
?
UFI: 6UE7 - CQTV -A205 - GHXV
?
Possibly the MSDS ?(Materials Safety) data sheet ( inserted into product box ), might have additional information ?
?
.... but would be nice to have the GC-MS results,? so that one could make one's own ink, ? as a DIY project !
?
thank you,
rick
?
?
|
Hi.
Unless the ThinkJet print head is significantly different to what HP do now in commodity ink jet cartridges, there is any number of Black refill kits on the usual Web market places that might do the job.? Just for the ink.
Agreed too, that the ThinkJet is a nice little thing.? I used one some 40 odd years ago, to make PC "EGA" screen dump hard copies, for a prototype "Time Of Flight" MS system I was loosely involved with back then.
Fun work, until the politics started.
Regards to All.
Dave 'KBV
|
the earlier HP thinkjet cartridges likely have a bit more glycerol than modern ink formulations based on the way the ink spread on the fibers at dried first few seconds.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Dave_G0WBX via groups.io <g8kbvdave@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2024 11:01:30 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?
?
Hi.
Unless the ThinkJet print head is significantly different to what HP do now in commodity ink jet cartridges, there is any number of Black refill kits on the usual Web market places that might do the job.? Just for the ink.
Agreed too, that the ThinkJet is a nice little thing.? I used one some 40 odd years ago, to make PC "EGA" screen dump hard copies, for a prototype "Time Of Flight" MS system I was loosely involved with back then.
Fun work, until the politics started.
Regards to All.
Dave 'KBV
|
?
?
-- Am? Still?? Looking for anyone able to do GC or GC-MS .... on the Hp black ThinkJet inks:
?
I am trying to experiment on the inks & the printer for various purposes...
?
? So knowing ? what,? ? & [?? ]'s?? are? actually? in the Hp 51604a & Original Hp 9226a
?
??? would help !
?
thank you,
rick
?
**
Anyone have access to a GC-MS lab that might want to elucidate the ThinkJet ink adventure ?
?
Expected major components in the ?Hp 51604A ?Thinkjet black ink cartridge:
? ?( ?3.0mL to 3.7mL ; 0.13 fOz)
?
2-Pyrrolidone
Ethelyne Glycol
Food Back 2
Acid Salt 3
water
?
UFI: 6UE7 - CQTV -A205 - GHXV
?
Possibly the MSDS ?(Materials Safety) data sheet ( inserted into product box ), might have additional information ?
?
.... but would be nice to have the GC-MS results,
?
?
?
|
Are you asking for someone to do this for free for you? As a favor?? I don't know how much experience you have with GC-MS (I worked as an analytical chemist for years) but there's a lot of work that goes into developing a method to run your sample.? Also, without having the standards required, GC-MS will only tell you what analytes are in your sample; it will not tell you in what concentrations unless you perform additional method development.? That means performing linearity, precision, and accuracy studies (i.e. validation) so that you can quantify the amount in the sample using known standards.? All this to say, this takes a lot of work and it isn't cheap.? So if this is something you were planning to pay for, then you can look up any number of GC-MS labs online that offer services to the public to do this kind of work.
|
On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 10:17 AM, gren wrote:
HP MSDS data for 2002, for 51604A Black
Component/Substance CAS Number ?EU Number % by Weight
Ethylene glycol ? 107-21-1 203-473-3 <35%?
Triethylene glycol 112-27-6 203-953-2 <15%?
Food Black 2 acid salt confidential confidential <6%
Water 7732-18-5 231-791-2 > 50%?
note that the secret sauce is the Food Black 2 @ acid salt combo. They are not fessing up to what the 'acid salt is' or how much of it is used.
?
2002 is relatively recent; but, older MSDS might even be less informative... as they are only required in them... new or old... to mostly list 'hazardous' materials... and one man's hazard is another man's fun, on YouTube.
|
Here's one from 2015.? It seems they omitted the Food black two or Black 7984 (a complex diazo dye) which is cataloged by NIH. Not sure if it is the same since it says proprietary and does not give a CAS #.? ? Probably because they stopped using it as it is not permitted for use in the US and Europe.? As Roy said, the MSDS will likely only list the hazardous materials.? It is a good starting point though.??
?
If the dye is anything like Black 7984, you're going to have a tough time resolving that with GC-MS.? At 800 g/mol, that is going to be tough to sufficiently vaporize.? You might be better off with LC-MS to characterize the dye and then GC-MS for the smaller residual and volatiles.
?
-Frank 
|
Well, RIT dye contains salt, and what dyes doesn't FDA think are food dyes? They allow Red #40, and yellow #5... It is said that if you hear the sound of hoof beats on the commons, it is more likely to be horses than zebras. I think it is quite likely that HP would have used a cheap, easy to get dye like used by RIT in their printer. By doing so, they get to piggy back on all the years RIT sold their safe product to consumers. The salt in RIT dye serves to improve its permanent nature. -Chuck Harris On Fri, 04 Oct 2024 12:36:09 -0700 "Roy Thistle" <roy.thistle@...> wrote: On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 10:17 AM, gren wrote:
Possibly the MSDS
HP MSDS data for 2002, for 51604A Black
Component/Substance CAS Number ?EU Number % by Weight
Ethylene glycol ? 107-21-1 203-473-3 <35%
Triethylene glycol 112-27-6 203-953-2 <15%
Food Black 2 acid salt confidential confidential <6%
Water 7732-18-5 231-791-2 > 50%
note that the secret sauce is the Food Black 2 @ acid salt combo.
They are not fessing up to what the 'acid salt is' or how much of it
is used.
2002 is relatively recent; but, older MSDS might even be less
informative... as they are only required in them... new or old... to
mostly list 'hazardous' materials... and one man's hazard is another
man's fun, on YouTube.
|
It could be that Food Black 2 is used but what they have made confidential is the salt that they use to neutralize the dye.? In this case Food black 2 has 4 sulfonic acid groups that need to be neutralized to stabilize it.? Sometimes this is done with Sodium.? It could be they are using something else that they don't wish to disclose.? This does have implications for the GC-MS analysis and sample preparation.? It can make analysis more difficult requiring some kind of acidic work up to remove the salt.
|
?
?
Don't think I need an outside lab, .... but would be interested in discuss with those actually having analytical equipment.
(? I still need a few minor parts for my pe Elan 6000,? so that is not ready yet,? lol.? And yes, I would need a different column for the Shimadzu, sigh. )
?
But, am betting that this ink issue can be solved more easily:
?
My next practical step, after having tried some TLC plates, will be to try one of the inexpensive Sephadex columns,
Will start with either G-10 or G-25, and then possibly proceed forward, with a more specific column.
|
?
hi Roy,
Perfect, thank you for the MSDS !
?That adds a bit more info and reading the Patents has also illuminated.
?
Yes, likely other versions of the MSDS or Materials Safety sheet inserted in the Ink Jet box might have other, additional info,
they get updated as the various laws change, so Engineering Production Due Diligence? practices would follow.
?
rick
|
?
hmm,? not certain what the? 2015? "Clover"? Ink? data?? is from,?? or for... ?
?
For now, ... would be focusing only on the plain Black inks used? only? for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer,
? ( So, only Hp Ink Cartridges?? model#'s: Hp 9226a ? &?? Hp? 51604a ,? designed for the ThinkJet 2225 itself );
?
--? because the physics and thermal hydrodynamics of the Hp 2225 ThinkJet printer, as eloquently described in the Hp Journal article,
are tailored to these particular Inks and their cartridge, temperature,? & to a lesser extent, expulsion volume, and velocity. ?
?
|
Clover is the supplier.? It lists the product name on a page I didn't share initially (attached below).? However, it is interesting they omitted the dye.
?
But Roy makes a good point about older datasheets possibly not including all compounds of interest.? Here is one from 2013.? This one includes 'alkyldiol' which they have listed as proprietary.??
?
This one also has Food Black 2 listed.? Acid salt #3 indicates the dye is neutralized as a salt.? But which salt they aren't disclosing. Link is below.
?
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://images10.newegg.com/UploadFilesForNewegg/itemintelligence/HP/sp_51604arevb_ca_eng_v091400297325342.pdf
|
?
?
perhaps the "Clover" formulation is the same.
?
The Acid Salt 3 may not be such a mystery; probably simple,? as a 1st guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_salt
?
Anyway, need to check the pH, and do a titration of the Hp printer dye,? just for fun.
?
|
A PerkinElmer Elan 6000 - that thing must weigh a ton!? Which Shimadzu unit do you have? Is this for a home lab!?? If so that it is awesome. I hope you're not using H2 for carrier gas lol.??
Sephadex G-25 for affinity chromatography I assume?? G-10 is for small molecule.? I guess it depends on what you're interested in.? Are you looking for more residual solvents? Or understanding more about the dye and/or additional additives?
GC would require a midpolar column.? Something like Agilent's VF-35ms.? Good for resolving aromatics with substituted?polar groups.? Still think it is unlikely you'd be able to find a method that would resolve all components of the dye on GC-MS considering the molar mass of the dye.
?
?
Don't think I need an outside lab, .... but would be interested in discuss with those actually having analytical equipment.
(? I still need a few minor parts for my pe Elan 6000,? so that is not ready yet,? lol.? And yes, I would need a different column for the Shimadzu, sigh. )
?
But, am betting that this ink issue can be solved more easily:
?
My next practical step, after having tried some TLC plates, will be to try one of the inexpensive Sephadex columns,
Will start with either G-10 or G-25, and then possibly proceed forward, with a more specific column.
|
?
The dye is easy, Food Black 2 ,
Other questions are the possible use of a Tween, or other Surfactant? or/& something else, possibly Glycerol ?
?
For 1st tests, a test ink does not have to be perfect, just hoping it will work reasonably well, and be paper fast.
Just don't want to gum up the only empty ThinkJet cartridge that I have, ... would quickly put an end to testing in my 2225 printer, lol.
?
Thus, more examples of MSDS sheets ,
?? from the Hp ThinkJet Cartridge ? boxes? ( an inserted slip of paper ), would help,
if anyone can post additional .pdf's of these.
|
Gotcha.? Very curious what that 'alkyldiol' is listed on the most recent MSDS I shared.? It doesn't have a CAS # and it says proprietary.? Could be a nonionic surfactant like Tween.??
Keep us posted on this project! I'd be interested/curious to know how far you get with the tools you have at home!
-Frank??
?
The dye is easy, Food Black 2 ,
Other questions are the possible use of a Tween, or other Surfactant? or/& something else, possibly Glycerol ?
?
For 1st tests, a test ink does not have to be perfect, just hoping it will work reasonably well, and be paper fast.
Just don't want to gum up the only empty ThinkJet cartridge that I have, ... would quickly put an end to testing in my 2225 printer, lol.
?
Thus, more examples of MSDS sheets ,
?? from the Hp ThinkJet Cartridge ? boxes? ( an inserted slip of paper ), would help,
if anyone can post additional .pdf's of these.
|
Frank Mashockie