Re: 8594E input attenuator issue?
On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 07:58 AM, Nicolas Mailloux wrote:
n8zmTWH@... : I do not have/searched the schematics of my particular ATT. I based my assumptions on a previous post from someone that attached schematics. They may not be the right ones.
?
My exact model number is : 33321-60036 it goes to 70dB I think. My 8594E is from 9kHz to 2.9GHz.
Measuring the pads where the contact blades touch when selected, still in the aluminum block I get these readings :
They are in order from Input to Output.
?
PAD 2 : 81.69 ohm
PAD 3 : 98.04 ohm
PAD 4 : 51.65 ohm
?
Both service manual and CLIP show 10dB/20dB/40dB sections. The pads have three terminals, input/output/ground (input/output being symmetric). Ground is connected to the metal frame. ?Are above resistance measurements from one pad to ground? It may or may not tell much but what resistance do you measure from each side to ground?? Ozan
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The 1854-0441 is NOT a diode. All 1854-.... parts are NPN transistors
Cheers!
Bruce
Quoting RubenRubio <rubenrb2019@...>:
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Hello Francesco
In my xref lists I cannot found equivalent, so I did some google search about 1854-0404. Mr. Terrell wrote here in this forum:
"Michael A. Terrell
25.11.2018 #92882 ( /g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/message/92882 )
My notes suggest a 2N3904.
"1854-1293 as per Keysight as replacement for 1854-0071 . Part Description: Mod and Ser Nbr Reqd Transistor NPN VCE-25V IC-0.1A PD-0.625W silicon TO-92, Protected Supply 1854-0071 was a generic small signal NPN silicon transistor that was usuallly used wherever a grunt NPN was needed. A 2N3904 would be a good replacement. *1854-0404 was the same device but in a metal can*."
Michael A. Terrell"
And for the 1854-0441 I found this web page, that sugest it is a diode and shows some p/n: click here ( )
Maybe this can help you
Regards,
Ruben
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HP 89441A / 89431A RF Section Help
My 89441A Vector Signal Analyzer has stopped working with its 89431A RF section, with an error message saying the reference oscillator is unlocked.? I have confirmed that there is no signal coming from the 89431A reference oscillator output that feeds the IF section.? The fault appears to be with the local oscillator (LO), and investigation shows a red overcurrent LED on the +8V supply with the voltage at the test point measuring about 4.8V.? Module A64 in the LO is drawing quite a bit of current, about 1 amp.? With the A64 module disconnected from the +8V supply there is a 10 MHz signal present at the reference oscillator output of the 89431A, although the overcurrent LED is still lit - the voltage reads about 7.5 V.? There could be multiple faults or perhaps a problem with the overcurrent detection circuit.
The A64 module is an amplifier containing two 1GG3-4205 devices, and each of them draws about the same amount of current.? I have been unable to find any information about this device and CLIP level diagrams are not available for the 89441A system from what I've found.? The 1GG3-4205 device now appears to be unobtainable.
Does anyone know if the 1GG3-4205 is supposed to draw about 500 mA?? If not, can anyone recommend a suitable substitution or workaround (I've read that someone has successfully substituted a Mini Circuits module on a different piece of equipment but which one isn't stated).? If it is normal for these devices to draw so heavily then it is possible that the overcurrent detection circuit in the power supply has a problem.? Without component level information all I have is HP house numbers and endless guesses as to what is actually going on.
Any suggestions would be appreciated - I just don't have enough information at this point to make any headway.? Thanks for reading :)
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On Jan 20, 2022, at 02:20, RubenRubio <rubenrb2019@...> wrote:
? Hello Francesco
?
In my xref lists I cannot found equivalent, so I did some google search about 1854-0404. Mr. Terrell wrote here in this forum:?
My notes suggest a 2N3904.
"1854-1293 as per Keysight as replacement for 1854-0071 . Part Description: Mod and Ser Nbr Reqd Transistor NPN VCE-25V IC-0.1A PD-0.625W silicon TO-92, Protected Supply 1854-0071 was a generic small signal NPN silicon transistor that was usuallly used wherever a grunt NPN was needed. A 2N3904 would be a good replacement. 1854-0404 was the same device but in a metal can."
Michael A. Terrell"
And for the 1854-0441 I found this web page, that sugest it is a diode and shows some p/n:
Maybe this can help you
?
Regards,
Ruben
|
Re: 8594E input attenuator issue?
n8zmTWH@... : I do not have/searched the schematics of my particular ATT. I based my assumptions on a previous post from someone that attached schematics. They may
not be the right ones.
?
My exact model number is : 33321-60036 it goes to 70dB I think. My 8594E is from 9kHz to 2.9GHz.
Measuring the pads where the contact blades touch when selected, still in the aluminum block I get these readings :
They are in order from Input to Output.
?
PAD 2 : 81.69 ohm
PAD 3 : 98.04 ohm
PAD 4 : 51.65 ohm
?
?
?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of n8zmTWH@...
Sent: 20 janvier 2022 10:33
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8594E input attenuator issue?
?
Using the p-p amplitudes shown in the lower left corner of the screen, I calculate 20 dB where you said 40, and 30 dB where you said 50. Are you sure that is a 40
dB section, as that is kind of uncommon in the HP attenuators I¡¯ve seen? They would usually get 40 by turning on two 20¡¯s. Getting 40 dB across one section is asking a lot of the isolation across that section as the frequency goes higher.
?
?
I enabled FFT on my DSO. (It is a Rigol D1052E hacked to 100Mhz)
My TF 2015 is old and the maximum dB out I can get is theoretically -1dB (-7dB on the dials and a +6dB boost on CW Mode)
?
First picture shows without any attenuation
Second shows the 40dB attenuation
Third shows 40dB + 10dB attenuation.
?
I will clean contacts and re-measure later.
?
?
?
Nicolas,
If your DSO has an FFT function it could help in checking the higher attenuations.
--John Gord
On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 08:09 PM, <nicolas.mailloux@...> wrote:
Alright, I tried myself with a 3D printed plunger. It's not perfect, I would need to trim a bit on the top because it keeps the blade too low when engaged, but it's doable with time.
The broken plunger is at the capacitor. I booted up my vintage TF2015 Marconi RF generator, set it to 50Mhz and 15Mhz here are the results :
PIN 1 = DC BLOCK
PIN 2 = 20 dB
PIN 3 = 40 dB
PIN 4 = 10 dB
I fed +/- -20dBm to the ATT from the TF 2015. My DSO read +/-63.2mVpp without the ATT and +/-60mVpp with the ATT all position retracted (OFF), a loss of about 1.5-2mVpp
|
Source
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20dB
|
40dB
|
10dB
|
Reading
|
|
63.2mVpp
|
OFF
|
OFF
|
OFF
|
60mVpp
|
|
?
|
ON
|
OFF
|
OFF
|
6.40mVpp
|
|
?
|
OFF
|
ON
|
OFF
|
1.60mVpp
|
|
?
|
OFF
|
OFF
|
ON
|
19mVpp
|
|
?
|
ON
|
ON
|
OFF
|
0.800 - 1.2mVpp
|
|
?
|
ON
|
ON
|
ON
|
0.800 - 1.2mVpp
|
|
?
|
ON
|
OFF
|
ON
|
2.4-2.8mVpp
|
|
?
|
OFF
|
ON
|
ON
|
.800-1.2mVpp
|
|
Re: 8594E input attenuator issue?
Using the p-p amplitudes shown in the lower left corner of the screen, I calculate 20 dB where you said 40, and 30 dB where you said 50. Are you sure that is a 40 dB section, as that is kind of uncommon in the HP attenuators I¡¯ve seen? They would usually get 40 by turning on two 20¡¯s. Getting 40 dB across one section is asking a lot of the isolation across that section as the frequency goes higher. ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Nicolas Mailloux
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 8:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8594E input attenuator issue?? I enabled FFT on my DSO. (It is a Rigol D1052E hacked to 100Mhz) My TF 2015 is old and the maximum dB out I can get is theoretically -1dB (-7dB on the dials and a +6dB boost on CW Mode) ? First picture shows without any attenuation Second shows the 40dB attenuation Third shows 40dB + 10dB attenuation. ? I will clean contacts and re-measure later. ? ? ? Nicolas,
If your DSO has an FFT function it could help in checking the higher attenuations.
--John Gord
On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 08:09 PM, <nicolas.mailloux@...> wrote: Alright, I tried myself with a 3D printed plunger. It's not perfect, I would need to trim a bit on the top because it keeps the blade too low when engaged, but it's doable with time.
The broken plunger is at the capacitor. I booted up my vintage TF2015 Marconi RF generator, set it to 50Mhz and 15Mhz here are the results :
PIN 1 = DC BLOCK
PIN 2 = 20 dB
PIN 3 = 40 dB
PIN 4 = 10 dB
I fed +/- -20dBm to the ATT from the TF 2015. My DSO read +/-63.2mVpp without the ATT and +/-60mVpp with the ATT all position retracted (OFF), a loss of about 1.5-2mVpp Source | 20dB | 40dB | 10dB | Reading | 63.2mVpp | OFF | OFF | OFF | 60mVpp | ? | ON | OFF | OFF | 6.40mVpp | ? | OFF | ON | OFF | 1.60mVpp | ? | OFF | OFF | ON | 19mVpp | ? | ON | ON | OFF | 0.800 - 1.2mVpp | ? | ON | ON | ON | 0.800 - 1.2mVpp | ? | ON | OFF | ON | 2.4-2.8mVpp | ? | OFF | ON | ON | .800-1.2mVpp |
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Re: E5071C the program can't working
Been known to happen.? You have an ENA, but 5 to 10 years ago I worked with a PNA (lucky me) that developed a pathological cal set.? Even "touching" that cal set crashed the Windows operating system.? That is, so much as clicking on the cal set filename to try to delete it would cause a crash.? Not so lucky!? So we sent it back to Keysight under warranty, who replaced the hard drive.? Problem solved.? ? ? ? ? Jim Ford?
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
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-------- Original message -------- From: n8zmTWH@... Date: 1/19/22 7:12 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] E5071C the program can't working
Sounds like a corrupted hard drive. ? You might be able to purchase a replacement hard drive from Keysight which would not be too expensive compared to the value of that VNA. It WILL be more than a hard drive costs these days but part of that is the value of the code on it. ? A call to the service center is probably your best bet now. ? Where are you located? ? ? thanks but i did recovery it. now,it can't working
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Re: 8594E input attenuator issue?
I enabled FFT on my DSO. (It is a Rigol D1052E hacked to 100Mhz)
My TF 2015 is old and the maximum dB out I can get is theoretically -1dB (-7dB on the dials and a +6dB boost on CW Mode)
?
First picture shows without any attenuation
Second shows the 40dB attenuation
Third shows 40dB + 10dB attenuation.
?
I will clean contacts and re-measure later.
?
?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of John Gord via groups.io
Sent: 20 janvier 2022 01:37
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8594E input attenuator issue?
?
Nicolas,
If your DSO has an FFT function it could help in checking the higher attenuations.
--John Gord
On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 08:09 PM, <nicolas.mailloux@...> wrote:
Alright, I tried myself with a 3D printed plunger. It's not perfect, I would need to trim a bit on the top because it keeps the blade too low when engaged, but it's doable with time.
The broken plunger is at the capacitor. I booted up my vintage TF2015 Marconi RF generator, set it to 50Mhz and 15Mhz here are the results :
PIN 1 = DC BLOCK
PIN 2 = 20 dB
PIN 3 = 40 dB
PIN 4 = 10 dB
I fed +/- -20dBm to the ATT from the TF 2015. My DSO read +/-63.2mVpp without the ATT and +/-60mVpp with the ATT all position retracted (OFF), a loss of about 1.5-2mVpp
|
Source
|
20dB
|
40dB
|
10dB
|
Reading
|
|
63.2mVpp
|
OFF
|
OFF
|
OFF
|
60mVpp
|
|
?
|
ON
|
OFF
|
OFF
|
6.40mVpp
|
|
?
|
OFF
|
ON
|
OFF
|
1.60mVpp
|
|
?
|
OFF
|
OFF
|
ON
|
19mVpp
|
|
?
|
ON
|
ON
|
OFF
|
0.800 - 1.2mVpp
|
|
?
|
ON
|
ON
|
ON
|
0.800 - 1.2mVpp
|
|
?
|
ON
|
OFF
|
ON
|
2.4-2.8mVpp
|
|
?
|
OFF
|
ON
|
ON
|
.800-1.2mVpp
|
|
Hello Francesco
?
In my xref lists I cannot found equivalent, so I did some google search about 1854-0404. Mr. Terrell wrote here in this forum:?
My notes suggest a 2N3904.
"1854-1293 as per Keysight as replacement for 1854-0071 . Part Description: Mod and Ser Nbr Reqd Transistor NPN VCE-25V IC-0.1A PD-0.625W silicon TO-92, Protected Supply 1854-0071 was a generic small signal NPN silicon transistor that was usuallly used wherever a grunt NPN was needed. A 2N3904 would be a good replacement. 1854-0404 was the same device but in a metal can."
Michael A. Terrell"
And for the 1854-0441 I found this web page, that sugest it is a diode and shows some p/n:
Maybe this can help you
?
Regards,
Ruben
|
Re: 8594E input attenuator issue?
Nicolas,
If your DSO has an FFT function it could help in checking the higher attenuations.
--John Gord
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 08:09 PM, <nicolas.mailloux@...> wrote:
Alright, I tried myself with a 3D printed plunger. It's not perfect, I would need to trim a bit on the top because it keeps the blade too low when engaged, but it's doable with time.
The broken plunger is at the capacitor. I booted up my vintage TF2015 Marconi RF generator, set it to 50Mhz and 15Mhz here are the results :
PIN 1 = DC BLOCK
PIN 2 = 20 dB
PIN 3 = 40 dB
PIN 4 = 10 dB
I fed +/- -20dBm to the ATT from the TF 2015. My DSO read +/-63.2mVpp without the ATT and +/-60mVpp with the ATT all position retracted (OFF), a loss of about 1.5-2mVpp
| Source |
20dB |
40dB |
10dB |
Reading |
| 63.2mVpp |
OFF |
OFF |
OFF |
60mVpp |
| ? |
ON |
OFF |
OFF |
6.40mVpp |
| ? |
OFF |
ON |
OFF |
1.60mVpp |
| ? |
OFF |
OFF |
ON |
19mVpp |
| ? |
ON |
ON |
OFF |
0.800 - 1.2mVpp |
| ? |
ON |
ON |
ON |
0.800 - 1.2mVpp |
| ? |
ON |
OFF |
ON |
2.4-2.8mVpp |
| ? |
OFF |
ON |
ON |
.800-1.2mVpp |
|
Re: E5071C the program can't working
|
Re: E5071C the program can't working
As Keysight does business all around the world, I expect that their web site will offer both an email and a phone number for you to use from your country to contact a Help Desk, which they call their Contact Center. ?
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Re: 8594E input attenuator issue?
Quickly cranking out some numbers, the 20 dB section appears to be working. 20Log(60/6.4) = 19.44.dB. Allowing for a bit of inaccuracy due to using a DSO, that looks OK. ? 20Log(60/1.6)? = 31.38 dB, should be closer to 40 dB. ? 20Log(60/19) = 9.99? dB, so OK. ? As a check, 20 Log (60/2.6) = 27.26 dB, should have been closer to 30, so there may be an issue between sections. I averaged the 2.4 ¨C 2.8 readings to get 2.6. ? Maybe carefully ( and I mean carefully) cleaning the contacts will help. Contact cleaner and air is better than any sort of abrasive as the surfaces are very thin layers. ? Looking back at your resistance readings, it appears that the last line of that list was the one out of spec, and probably is the 40 dB section. I think you can find replacements on the Keysight web page, by looking under Support there should be a Parts option. The attenuator part number should help you find what you need, if it is available. ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of icolas.mailloux@...
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 11:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8594E input attenuator issue?? Alright, I tried myself with a 3D printed plunger. It¡¯s not perfect, I would need to trim a bit on the top because it keeps the blade too low when engaged, but it¡¯s doable with time.
The broken plunger is at the capacitor. I booted up my vintage TF2015 Marconi RF generator, set it to 50Mhz and 15Mhz here are the results :
PIN 1 = DC BLOCK
PIN 2 = 20 dB
PIN 3 = 40 dB
PIN 4 = 10 dB
I fed +/- -20dBm to the ATT from the TF 2015. My DSO read +/-63.2mVpp without the ATT and +/-60mVpp with the ATT all position retracted (OFF), a loss of about 1.5-2mVpp
Source | 20dB | 40dB | 10dB | Reading | 63.2mVpp | OFF | OFF | OFF | 60mVpp | ? | ON | OFF | OFF | 6.40mVpp | ? | OFF | ON | OFF | 1.60mVpp | ? | OFF | OFF | ON | 19mVpp | ? | ON | ON | OFF | 0.800 - 1.2mVpp | ? | ON | ON | ON | 0.800 - 1.2mVpp | ? | ON | OFF | ON | 2.4-2.8mVpp | ? | OFF | ON | ON | .800-1.2mVpp |
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Re: 8594E input attenuator issue?
On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 08:09 PM, <nicolas.mailloux@...> wrote:
Alright, I tried myself with a 3D printed plunger. It's not perfect, I would need to trim a bit on the top because it keeps the blade too low when engaged, but it's doable with time.
The broken plunger is at the capacitor. I booted up my vintage TF2015 Marconi RF generator, set it to 50Mhz and 15Mhz here are the results :
PIN 1 = DC BLOCK
PIN 2 = 20 dB
PIN 3 = 40 dB
PIN 4 = 10 dB
I fed +/- -20dBm to the ATT from the TF 2015. My DSO read +/-63.2mVpp without the ATT and +/-60mVpp with the ATT all position retracted (OFF), a loss of about 1.5-2mVpp
| Source |
20dB |
40dB |
10dB |
Reading |
| 63.2mVpp |
OFF |
OFF |
OFF |
60mVpp |
| ? |
ON |
OFF |
OFF |
6.40mVpp |
| ? |
OFF |
ON |
OFF |
1.60mVpp |
| ? |
OFF |
OFF |
ON |
19mVpp |
| ? |
ON |
ON |
OFF |
0.800 - 1.2mVpp |
| ? |
ON |
ON |
ON |
0.800 - 1.2mVpp |
| ? |
ON |
OFF |
ON |
2.4-2.8mVpp |
| ? |
OFF |
ON |
ON |
.800-1.2mVpp |
------------------ Could you try with higher power input so that you can get more signal at higher attenuations? 0dBm is not a problem at all. Could you also convert last column to dB? Looks like 40dB is not giving correct attenuation: 20*log10(1.6mVpp/63.2mVpp)= -32dB It would be interesting to see 40dB+10dB or 40dB+20dB combination with higher input power. If only 40dB was off by 10dB, would it explain the problems you were seeing? Your board shows some ICs so I am not sure if the schematics I sent is correct for your attenuator. There are one-shot timers and relay drivers on the board. Given they put in one shot timers most likely they took care of relay pulsing on the board. Still I wouldn't connect any power yet. Ozan
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Re: E5071C the program can't working
i checking hard disk normal.?
i'm in Viet Nam
|
Re: 8594E input attenuator issue?
Alright, I tried myself with a 3D printed plunger. It's not perfect, I would need to trim a bit on the top because it keeps the blade too low when engaged, but it's doable with time. The broken plunger is at the capacitor. I booted up my vintage TF2015 Marconi RF generator, set it to 50Mhz and 15Mhz here are the results : PIN 1 = DC BLOCK PIN 2 = 20 dB PIN 3 = 40 dB PIN 4 = 10 dB I fed +/- -20dBm to the ATT from the TF 2015. My DSO read +/-63.2mVpp without the ATT and +/-60mVpp with the ATT all position retracted (OFF), a loss of about 1.5-2mVpp
| Source |
20dB |
40dB |
10dB |
Reading |
| 63.2mVpp |
OFF |
OFF |
OFF |
60mVpp |
| ? |
ON |
OFF |
OFF |
6.40mVpp |
| ? |
OFF |
ON |
OFF |
1.60mVpp |
| ? |
OFF |
OFF |
ON |
19mVpp |
| ? |
ON |
ON |
OFF |
0.800 - 1.2mVpp |
| ? |
ON |
ON |
ON |
0.800 - 1.2mVpp |
| ? |
ON |
OFF |
ON |
2.4-2.8mVpp |
| ? |
OFF |
ON |
ON |
.800-1.2mVpp |
|
Re: HP35660a service manual, the complete version ?
|
Re: 8594E input attenuator issue?
On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 06:19 PM, Ozan wrote:
On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 05:30 PM, <nicolas.mailloux@...> wrote:
Ho Ozan,
I have a signal generator, the lower I can go is 14Mhz.
I would like to know where I can find the pinout of the connector. I will manually feed the solenoids.
All I have on hand is my 100Mhz oscilloscope, which should be enough to measure the attenuation by using the Vpp measurement at 14Mhz.
I will of course terminate the connection from the ATT to the DSO with a 50ohm.
I regret not trying it on the bench first before opening it up. Now I do have a broken plunger (trying to fix it with glue...).
------
Higher frequency is fine, the attenuator should work 300kHz-2.9GHz in AC coupling and pretty much down to DC without AC coupling.?
8590A CLIP manual is in the files section, pinout could be the same. I will dig up 8594E attenuator pinout and send in a few hours unless someone else have it handy.
Ozan
-------- I attached a page from the SM and also driver schematic. If you can send picture of the relay section we can tell if there is a contact that disconnects the relay after switching, then it is OK to apply constant DC because current path will be disconnected inside the relay. Some HP relays are built with disconnect switch inside. However, if mechanical actuation is possible it is safest. If it works you will still want to make sure relays operate fine. You can measure coil resistances, then push the plunger(s) and observe if set or reset position of the relevant section goes open circuit confirming built in current disconnect. Let me know if this needs more explanation. Ozan
|
Re: E5071C the program can't working
Sounds like a corrupted hard drive. ? You might be able to purchase a replacement hard drive from Keysight which would not be too expensive compared to the value of that VNA. It WILL be more than a hard drive costs these days but part of that is the value of the code on it. ? A call to the service center is probably your best bet now. ? Where are you located? ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of qnhn90@...
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 10:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] E5071C the program can't working? thanks but i did recovery it. now,it can't working
|
Re: E5071C the program can't working
thanks but i did recovery it. now,it can't working
|
RubenRubio
