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one problem i find is that the market for stuff like this is soo small that
it isnt worth my time.
i cant afford to spend alot of time on things that have very little return
at oner time i had enough money to play for long periods of time
that isnt the case any longer im not as fotunate as john miles.

Hi John,
Yes I have seen that unit - I was pondering something more
sophisticated. Along the lines of 100MSa/s to FPGA to digitize x,y or
if and an embedded web-server to get the data out.

Keep in mind that there's no benefit to digitizing post-detected trace
signals (x and y) at rates beyond the bandwidth of the widest video filter,
typically a few MHz at most. And if you digitize the final IF, the
bandwidth may still be limited to a few MHz by other filters in the SA's
signal chain.

If you are that ambitious, I think the best approach -- meaning, the one
that would benefit others the most, and require you to do the least original
engineering work -- would be to launch a project using the USRP or other GNU
Radio peripherals as a general-purpose spectrum analyzer back end. Keep it
simple at first or you'll never get anywhere! Trust me on that...

I figure I might
have enough space on that board and use the control inputs for other
purposes such as selected storage mode or other function since they
wouldn't be controlling the tube any more. Still early ponderances -
I only just got the SA and need to play with it a bit more!! I've
decided its time to move into the exciting world of RF and high speed
digital - spent enough of time on slow - medium speed digital and
software - besides - that's what I do at work.

It's definitely a good idea to spend time coming to grips with the
limitations of what you have. The obvious specification deficiencies aren't
always the ones that will end up limiting your measurements.

I was interested in your hybrid 2GHz vco and possible use as a yig
stabilizer.

Heh... that will teach you all you (n)ever wanted to know about noise and
stability. Building a clean YIG synthesizer is a challenging project. I
still haven't managed to do as well as the old HP designs, even with
much-newer opamps and other parts... which is one reason I chickened out
when I realized I was faced with that sort of problem in my 8566 'redesign'
project. It will have to wait until I can devote a lot more time to it.

I just realised that we looked at using your pc sound system where I
work. We're now moving from SGIs into pcs and may be looking at it
again. :-)

Oh, you mean the sound system I'm supposed to be working on right now. Oh,
yeah, THAT. :)

-- john, KE5FX

you might want to try ebay, another way is to find the connectors or strip them out of a old unit and then make a PCB board for it, all you need is the spacing for the board.
If you dont have any way of etching boards and dont want a boarshop doing it you can just get a strip of 2 sided FR4 about 1" wide, layout your contacts with a ruler and then use a dremel tool or a sharp knive to cut insulation channels in between the contacts, use a piece of ribbon cable to connect this contact to the female part (the green connector) and there you made yourself a extender board ! most of the RF stuff is routed trough coax so the contacts only carry DC and control signals

David C. Hallam" <dhallam@...> wrote:
I guess I have to amend my posting and apologize to HP. I misread the
drawing for the SMB connector and in fact these connectors are SMB. They
are not "goofy".

Also, I think I have located a 500 MHz plug-in for my 5245L counter.

Now, if I could just find the extender cards to service the modules, I would
be on my way to relatively painless trouble shooting of the 8443A. Repairs
may be another matter.

David
KC2JD/4

the coax contacts are made by ITT Cannon as well as some other companies, you can buy them from mouser, digi key or pasternack, the only problem is that they are crimped on the outside so you need a crimping tool.
pasternack also sells cables with the contacts already crimped on but they run about $20ea, howewer if you consider the cost of a contact @ $3-4ea, the time you spend stripping the coax and about $50-100 for the crimping tool you might want to consider buying the cables ready made

J Forster <jfor@...> wrote:
It turns out they are 50 Ohm SMBs.

Interestingly SMBs have become a lot more common (and cheaper) recently
because of GPS and wireless networking and extension cables and adapters
are now readily available on eBay.

Best,
-John

w6sfh wrote:

Gentlemen,

I have two HP 8443 tracking generators, one is an "A" model with the
counter and one is a "B" model without the counter. Both use SMB
connectors on the coaxes that interconnect the individual PC board
assemblies.

David C. Hallam wrote:

John,

They are gold plated and have Teflon insulation. I'll send a
couple of pictures tomorrow. [snip]

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I guess I have to amend my posting and apologize to HP. I misread the
drawing for the SMB connector and in fact these connectors are SMB. They
are not "goofy".

Also, I think I have located a 500 MHz plug-in for my 5245L counter.

Now, if I could just find the extender cards to service the modules, I would
be on my way to relatively painless trouble shooting of the 8443A. Repairs
may be another matter.

David
KC2JD/4

It turns out they are 50 Ohm SMBs.

Interestingly SMBs have become a lot more common (and cheaper) recently
because of GPS and wireless networking and extension cables and adapters
are now readily available on eBay.

Best,
-John




w6sfh wrote:

w6sfh wrote:

I worked for Hewlett-Packard at the factory where the HP 8443's were manufactured and I don't recall ever seeing anything but SMB and SMC connectors used for this type of application in those days.

I've already said this but nobody wants to believe it Bob. But great to get it confirmed from the source.

As for the interconnect cable from the tracking generator to the spectrum analyzer, it's not necessary to have the connector shell. If you can find the appropriate coax connector inserts (sorry, but I don't know the part numbers), they can be used without the shell,

The 8W8 shells are readily available, from Mouser, among others. Quite cheaply in fact. $3 or $4 from memory. The coax inserts are also available as are metal shrouds and the slide locks
73
Dan
ac6ao

Gentlemen,

I have two HP 8443 tracking generators, one is an "A" model with the
counter and one is a "B" model without the counter. Both use SMB
connectors on the coaxes that interconnect the individual PC board
assemblies. SMC connectors are used on the step attenuators and the
blocking capacitor assembly on the output connector. Note that one
end of each RF cable is permanently attached to the cover of the PC
board assembly.

I worked for Hewlett-Packard at the factory where the HP 8443's were
manufactured and I don't recall ever seeing anything but SMB and SMC
connectors used for this type of application in those days.

As for the interconnect cable from the tracking generator to the
spectrum analyzer, it's not necessary to have the connector shell. If
you can find the appropriate coax connector inserts (sorry, but I
don't know the part numbers), they can be used without the shell, as
there is enough friction to hold them in place when inserted into the
connectors on the tracking generator and spectrum analyzer rear
panels. The positions on each end correspond one-for-one. Of course
you'll have to be careful not to dislodge the connectors, but for
bench top applications this should not be a problem. Also, the system
may not pass the original specifications for radiated emissions and
susceptability without the original interconnect cable, but again
this may not be a problem for most applications.

Regards,

Bob Dildine

--- In hp_agilent_equipment@..., "Dave Brown"
<tractorb@...> wrote:

David-
If they ARE microdots, then it may be an option to recover a

connector

plus a short length of coax from surplus equipment-depending on

what

test lead(s?) you want to make up. Microdots were used in 76 and 78
series Lenkurt (analog microwave radio) gear-for example.
But pictures are essential to know exactly what you need.
DaveB, NZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "J Forster" <jfor@...>
To: <hp_agilent_equipment@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [hp_agilent_equipment] Hp-8443A Tracking Generator
Problems

jfor@...

As to a source, there are a number of distributers, but they will
likely be
expensive.
-J


David C. Hallam wrote:

John,

They are gold plated and have Teflon insulation. I'll send a
couple of
pictures tomorrow. I hope you can identify them and give a

source

of
supply. What is your email address?

David

-----Original Message-----
From: hp_agilent_equipment@...
[mailto:hp_agilent_equipment@...]On Behalf Of J

Forster

Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:45 PM
To: hp_agilent_equipment@...
Subject: Re: [hp_agilent_equipment] Hp-8443A Tracking

Generator

Problems

They are very likely Sealectro or MicroDot. If you email me a
(small ) pic
of
both M and F, off list, I'll see if I can ID them.

If they are gold plated with Teflon insulation between center

and

outer
conductors, Sealectro is the most likely choice.

-John

David C. Hallam wrote:

> I did call them GOOFY because that is what they are. They

are

goofy
because
> I think the only place in the whole world they were used was
the jacks
and
> plugs for the cables of the connections between modules of

the

8443A.
They
> are not SMA, SMB, or SMC. I have looked at drawing of each

of

these
types
> are the are not same as what HP used. I have no idea what

they

are or
> where to obtain them. I would certainly appreciate it if

anyone

could
> identify them along with a source of supply. As far as I am
concerned
their
> official description is "unobtainiun".
>
> David
> KC2JD/4



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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ok , you got me confused here, the 8565 does not have a storage pcb since it uses a storage CRT , as far as connecting a digitizer that should be fairly easy, as far as i remember the 8565 has a interface connector to connect a storage normalizer (8750) on the back panel, this connector gives you acess to all the signals you need for this task.
However if you put in the time and effort to go for digital storage why dont you ponder the idea of discarding the CRT at all and replace it with a LCD panel, there is a bunch of embedded controllers that offer LCD/TFT interface build in, all you need is a microcontroller, A/D converter and a Surplus TFT panel and youre ready to go

swingbyte <swingbyte@...> wrote:
Hi fellow hp'ers,
I'm the new owner of a HP8565 SA and think its pretty good. However,
the hacker in me is already pondering modding it. In particular, I have
been thinking of replacing the storage pcb with a new one, only
operating the tube in conventional mode and using the rest of the space
to add a digitiser/playback system. Has anyone else attempted something
similar? Although digital systems and ADCs are now fast enough to do
this - I chose the 8565 because it YIG RF systems still seem current
state of art - and I could always digitise the rear outputs with
something to avoid having to use the long persistence. I was prompted
to write this after reading John Mills email about trying to increase
the stability of his 8566 YIG and stated thinking maybe the 8565 could
benefit from this? ( by the way - great web site you have!)
The 8565 was at the price I could afford, I would have gone for an 8569
and would LOVE an 8566 - but here in Australia they're expensive - even
through ebay - the shipping cost kills any bargains!
But this is a hobby and I like hacking and modding.
Another thought was to route the if signal to a DSO and FFT for greater
resolution - would the 8565 LO be stable enough?

Thanks for any thoughts

Tim ( no call sign yet)






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Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

There are several guys on ebay selling 8566/68 parts every now and then (playerservices for example) you might be able to find a interface card fairly cheap, also try best offers on fastscrap's items, altough his buy it now prices are unrealistic he sometimes accepts very low best offers, i wouldnt scrap the unit just for a missing card !

pierre288 <pierre288@...> wrote: John and Lothar,
Thanks very much for your comments...you convinced me to forget
interconnecting the 8568b/141t...not worthed.

The long story is that I bought the 8568B without 85662A on ebay, and
discovered the unit was missing the interface card...enough to stop me
seeking for a display unit until I resolve my problem (finding an
interface card seems hopeless...).
Meanwhile, I bought a 141T display (alone), then gradually found
missing modules (8552/8553/8555) which I succeeded fixing.

Not having the energy (and money) to reinvest in an other 8568, then
85662, I'm rather closer to unload the 8568 I initially
got...sniff...and never be able to see what "high stability" looks
like...hihi

73 and best regards
pierre...ve2ky

--- In hp_agilent_equipment@..., lothar baier
<microwaveengineer1968@...> wrote:

man youre right, i confused the 8510 and the 8566 units, the 8510

actually has the processor in the display.

hmmm why would anyone go through the trouble trying to build a

85662A USB emulator ?

with 85662A available under $500 this would be a dead end project

John Miles <jmiles@...> wrote:
In theory it could be done, because the actual

microprocessor is in the RF

section, but in practice I agree with Lothar that it would be a huge

waste

of time.

You'd need to synchronize the sweep of the 141T with the 8568B somehow,
which might be possible, but you'd still need to fool the 8568B into
thinking the 85662A was connected, because it expects to get data

(such as

marker amplitudes) back from the display section. And you would get

none of

the 8568B's alphanumerics or graticule graphics, because those are

generated

by the vector hardware in the 85662A. Even if you succeeded in getting a
trace, you'd have tied a really-nice spectrum analyzer to a

much-cruder one,

and the system will have all of the limitations of the 141T and none

of the

advantages of the 8568B except, I guess, its stability.

At some point, I'm sure someone will build an adapter that lets a PC

emulate

the 85662A via USB, but that adapter is not going to be cheap or simple.
Meantime, sell the 141T on eBay and buy an 85662A.

-- john, KE5FX

-----Original Message-----
From: hp_agilent_equipment@...
[mailto:hp_agilent_equipment@...]On Behalf Of lothar baier
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 6:48 AM
To: hp_agilent_equipment@...
Subject: Re: [hp_agilent_equipment] Can 8568 be used without display
unit?


I dont think that will work, as far as i remember the Display
also contains the processor card, the second question is why
would you want to do so anyway ?
using a external display would deprive you from using markers
and the readout which would make operating the whole thing alot
more difficould, displays can be found for about 2-400$ and if i
were you i would invest this money rather than wasting your time

pierre288 <pierre288@...> wrote:
Hi,
Is it possible to use only a 8568B rf unit without the IF-display unit
(85662)?
I have only the 8568B (without 85662) and I wanted to use it with my
old 141T tuned at 30Mhz which I think to be the IF output of the

8568...

Thanks for your help...
pierre ve2ky





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Hi John,
Yes I have seen that unit - I was pondering something more sophisticated. Along the lines of 100MSa/s to FPGA to digitize x,y or if and an embedded web-server to get the data out. I figure I might have enough space on that board and use the control inputs for other purposes such as selected storage mode or other function since they wouldn't be controlling the tube any more. Still early ponderances - I only just got the SA and need to play with it a bit more!! I've decided its time to move into the exciting world of RF and high speed digital - spent enough of time on slow - medium speed digital and software - besides - that's what I do at work.
I was interested in your hybrid 2GHz vco and possible use as a yig stabilizer.
I just realised that we looked at using your pc sound system where I work. We're now moving from SGIs into pcs and may be looking at it again. :-)

Tim


John Miles wrote:

I was prompted
to write this after reading John Mills email about trying to increase
the stability of his 8566 YIG and stated thinking maybe the 8565 could
benefit from this? ( by the way - great web site you have!)
The 8565 was at the price I could afford, I would have gone for an 8569
and would LOVE an 8566 - but here in Australia they're expensive - even
through ebay - the shipping cost kills any bargains!
But this is a hobby and I like hacking and modding.

Thanks! You should probably check out the Nov-Dec '07 QEX article by Roland
Cordesses:


The 8565 is similar enough to the 141T (basically a newer, more compact
version) that the same techniques should be usable with it.

Another thought was to route the if signal to a DSO and FFT for greater
resolution - would the 8565 LO be stable enough?

Possibly. I'm not familiar with this particular unit but if you do this,
you will quickly learn whether or not it's stable enough. :) Then the real
hacking can begin.

-- john, KE5FX

Hi fellow hp'ers,
I'm the new owner of a HP8565 SA and think its pretty good. However, the hacker in me is already pondering modding it. In particular, I have been thinking of replacing the storage pcb with a new one, only operating the tube in conventional mode and using the rest of the space to add a digitiser/playback system. Has anyone else attempted something similar? Although digital systems and ADCs are now fast enough to do this - I chose the 8565 because it YIG RF systems still seem current state of art - and I could always digitise the rear outputs with something to avoid having to use the long persistence. I was prompted to write this after reading John Mills email about trying to increase the stability of his 8566 YIG and stated thinking maybe the 8565 could benefit from this? ( by the way - great web site you have!)
The 8565 was at the price I could afford, I would have gone for an 8569 and would LOVE an 8566 - but here in Australia they're expensive - even through ebay - the shipping cost kills any bargains!
But this is a hobby and I like hacking and modding.
Another thought was to route the if signal to a DSO and FFT for greater resolution - would the 8565 LO be stable enough?

Thanks for any thoughts

Tim ( no call sign yet)

John and Lothar,
Thanks very much for your comments...you convinced me to forget
interconnecting the 8568b/141t...not worthed.

The long story is that I bought the 8568B without 85662A on ebay, and
discovered the unit was missing the interface card...enough to stop me
seeking for a display unit until I resolve my problem (finding an
interface card seems hopeless...).
Meanwhile, I bought a 141T display (alone), then gradually found
missing modules (8552/8553/8555) which I succeeded fixing.

Not having the energy (and money) to reinvest in an other 8568, then
85662, I'm rather closer to unload the 8568 I initially
got...sniff...and never be able to see what "high stability" looks
like...hihi

73 and best regards
pierre...ve2ky

--- In hp_agilent_equipment@..., lothar baier
<microwaveengineer1968@...> wrote:

man youre right, i confused the 8510 and the 8566 units, the 8510

actually has the processor in the display.

hmmm why would anyone go through the trouble trying to build a

85662A USB emulator ?

with 85662A available under $500 this would be a dead end project

John Miles <jmiles@...> wrote:
In theory it could be done, because the actual

microprocessor is in the RF

section, but in practice I agree with Lothar that it would be a huge

waste

of time.

You'd need to synchronize the sweep of the 141T with the 8568B somehow,
which might be possible, but you'd still need to fool the 8568B into
thinking the 85662A was connected, because it expects to get data

(such as

marker amplitudes) back from the display section. And you would get

none of

the 8568B's alphanumerics or graticule graphics, because those are

generated

by the vector hardware in the 85662A. Even if you succeeded in getting a
trace, you'd have tied a really-nice spectrum analyzer to a

much-cruder one,

and the system will have all of the limitations of the 141T and none

of the

advantages of the 8568B except, I guess, its stability.

At some point, I'm sure someone will build an adapter that lets a PC

emulate

the 85662A via USB, but that adapter is not going to be cheap or simple.
Meantime, sell the 141T on eBay and buy an 85662A.

-- john, KE5FX

-----Original Message-----
From: hp_agilent_equipment@...
[mailto:hp_agilent_equipment@...]On Behalf Of lothar baier
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 6:48 AM
To: hp_agilent_equipment@...
Subject: Re: [hp_agilent_equipment] Can 8568 be used without display
unit?


I dont think that will work, as far as i remember the Display
also contains the processor card, the second question is why
would you want to do so anyway ?
using a external display would deprive you from using markers
and the readout which would make operating the whole thing alot
more difficould, displays can be found for about 2-400$ and if i
were you i would invest this money rather than wasting your time

pierre288 <pierre288@...> wrote:
Hi,
Is it possible to use only a 8568B rf unit without the IF-display unit
(85662)?
I have only the 8568B (without 85662) and I wanted to use it with my
old 141T tuned at 30Mhz which I think to be the IF output of the

8568...

Thanks for your help...
pierre ve2ky





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David-
If they ARE microdots, then it may be an option to recover a connector plus a short length of coax from surplus equipment-depending on what test lead(s?) you want to make up. Microdots were used in 76 and 78 series Lenkurt (analog microwave radio) gear-for example.
But pictures are essential to know exactly what you need.
DaveB, NZ

jfor@...

As to a source, there are a number of distributers, but they will likely be
expensive.
-J


David C. Hallam wrote:

John,

They are gold plated and have Teflon insulation. I'll send a couple of
pictures tomorrow. I hope you can identify them and give a source of
supply. What is your email address?

David

Im a bit on the bad side with hittite right now, when i was working at the big M i didnt have any problems getting samples from them but now its not as easy , they want me to buy the samples but then they have a min order of 10ea which really is overkill financially !
The reason why you cant get past 10GHz is that as far as i know those YIGs use bipolar transistors and not GaAS, the phase noise performance seem to support this theory, getting anything out of a bipolar transistor past 10GHz is a tough job, i spend countless days and month testing simulating and building prototypes trying to get a 12GHz DRO going (to be used as one half of a push push design for 24GHz), there are a few good devices from infineon and a fairly new one from NXP that produce results but back when those endwave parts were conceived state of the art was about 10GHz !
Im really only interested in 8GHz which the device should do, im using a passive doubler to go to 16GHz and then a MIMIX Doubler to go to 32GHz, why a passive doubler for the first stage ? well the answer is simple, im getting about +14dBm from the YIG, active doublers usually take about -6 to 0dBm so i would have to kill almost 14dB, the conversion loss of the doubler is 12dB so im ending up with +2dBm, now run this signal trough a splitter, lose 6dB thats -4dBm , the active doubler i use produces +16dBm @ 0dBm input so im getting about +14dBm at the output which is perfect.


John Miles <jmiles@...> wrote:
I have tried running those YTOs past 10 GHz, and what happens is that they
just stop oscillating beyond a certain point (about 10.3 GHz as I recall).
If you bolt the oscillator to a good thermal sink and keep an eye on the
temperature it will probably be safe enough... but whether it will still
oscillate is another question.

I'd be interested in hearing how things go with the sampling phase detector.
Conversion loss at high harmonics, and the resulting need for lots of IF
gain, can really eat your lunch with those. From what I've seen there is no
longer much upside to using harmonic samplers over modern PFD chips. The
best of the Analog Devices parts (ADF4108, about $7/ea.) will work at Fin=8
GHz and Fcomp=100 MHz. You can't run either of them at N=32,000 and expect
miracles, obviously.

Obligatory HP content: I spent a lot of time trying to clean up my 8566B's
first LO synthesizer before I realized that the conversion loss of the YTO
sampler was never going to let me do better than about -105 to -110 dBc/Hz.
The low effective N factor rules out the ADF41xx series PLLs in that
application, but I think I could have gotten into the -120 dBc/Hz range with
a Hittite HMC363/HMC439 combination if my motivation hadn't run out.

-- john, KE5FX

I have tried running those YTOs past 10 GHz, and what happens is that they
just stop oscillating beyond a certain point (about 10.3 GHz as I recall).
If you bolt the oscillator to a good thermal sink and keep an eye on the
temperature it will probably be safe enough... but whether it will still
oscillate is another question.

I'd be interested in hearing how things go with the sampling phase detector.
Conversion loss at high harmonics, and the resulting need for lots of IF
gain, can really eat your lunch with those. From what I've seen there is no
longer much upside to using harmonic samplers over modern PFD chips. The
best of the Analog Devices parts (ADF4108, about $7/ea.) will work at Fin=8
GHz and Fcomp=100 MHz. You can't run either of them at N=32,000 and expect
miracles, obviously.

Obligatory HP content: I spent a lot of time trying to clean up my 8566B's
first LO synthesizer before I realized that the conversion loss of the YTO
sampler was never going to let me do better than about -105 to -110 dBc/Hz.
The low effective N factor rules out the ADF41xx series PLLs in that
application, but I think I could have gotten into the -120 dBc/Hz range with
a Hittite HMC363/HMC439 combination if my motivation hadn't run out.

-- john, KE5FX

thanks for the datasheet, unfortunatly it doesnt give a max current for the coil, the part i have says 8.5-9.25GHz it tunes to 8GHz @ 150mA however i dont know if this is acceptable for long term operation.
I know about the phasenoise performance for the synthesizers thats why im using a SPD rather than a PLL Chip along with a 100MHz low phasenoise reference.
Endwave actually swallowed Stellex as far as i know, stellex used to be WJ components , then WJ became stellex and then stellex got taken over by endwave.

John Miles <jmiles@...> wrote:
They're equivalent to these Endwave parts, as far as I can tell:


The YTOs themselves are nice parts, but the popular synthesizer boards that
use them are noisy. The comparison frequency is relatively low (250 kHz),
causing a 90-dB in-band PN penalty. With a higher Fcomp you can do quite a
bit better.

-- john, KE5FX

Does anyone has a detailed datasheet of the stellex permanent magnet
YTOs that are commonly offered on ebay ? im especially interested in
the max current the coil can take without frying.
Im in the process of building a 32GHz Synthesizer and want to use one
of those YIGs to generate a 8GHz Signal that then will be multiplied to
16GHz and then to 32GHz ,im planing on using a SPD from metelics for
this task driven by a 100MHz Crystal oscillator, i know theres better
stuff around but im trying to utilize stuff in got in my drawer.
Anyway i need a datasheet for the YTO to be able to properly design the
loop filter and driver circuitry.

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