Re: Troubleshooting a 8591e with opt 130
Hey Yves,
?
I had some more findings in the meantime. I will do the proposed measurements later today.?
I was looking in the plt/print menu when I saw Show options, There i noticed that the SA displayed opt 101 Fadc, opt 043 and opt 130. I knew it had options 043 and 130, since it's also on the sticker on the back.
I had mistakenly seen the installed opt101 for being opt 043. So I took out opt 101 and did another selfcal. Sadly though again with the same result, 300MHz carrier at -5dBm after cal. Also double checked the call output with the TinySA, 300MHz at -22.3dBm.?
I guess it's a nice find that there is an opt 101 in there aswell but doesn't seem to be the source of the problems.
?
I was going through the adjustment procedure yesterday. The procedure i found in the Group Files > service guide. I wanted to do Call attenuator error cal on page 58 but the TinySA output level isn't sufficient. The maximum output is -18.5dBm, perhaps I could do the Call Attenuator error cal at slightly lower levels, but i'm not sure if that would suffice.? ?
Then I found the Second Converter adjustment on page 79, for which I figured I had all the equipment.
During the tripler adjustment I found the 1.8GHz to be present but a bit high on the amplitude, the adjustment is to be done for maximum amplitude but it states the signal should be within -19 to -24dBm. I found it possible to get up to -17dBm, went down to -20dBm roughly. Should I maximise for a higher level even though going above the recommended range?
?
Next I tried the Second converter Bypass alignment. First steps are clear, until 12 on page 82. At step 11 the peaked signal should be on the 8566, which for me would be the TinySA. Then step 12 and 13 are for minimum and peak signal on "the analyzer" do the mean the 8591, or still the 8566/TinySa??
The A5C2 seems to be very jumpy/sensitive.
?
I continued with the Second mixer match. It seems the 321.4MHz wasn't exactly at 321.4 but rather at 321.8, the Swept bandpass also didn't look as it should.
?
I will retry the full procedure for better results.?
?
I added a text file with output data from the 8591 as captured in the serial terminal. I tried HPGL Viewer, SPLOT and HP7470A emulator. Some crashed, others gave me a screen with the HP logo and the ruler lines but no trace like this:
There is trace data in the file though, I asked ChatGPT to plot the file for me and got the following:  It's upside down but atleast it got the trace data out of the file.?
?
Marco
|
Had a thought. Since I can measure the 3.333MHz clock signal, doesn't that mean that the uC is working?
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Thanks Wolfgang! I suspect you are right. All of the voltages are spot on so it would likely have to be a failed uC.
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as nothing works, it looks as if the processor is not booting.
First check all supply voltages.
A signature analyzer as for many instruments of this vintage will be of great help
to determine what chip is faulty. Prime supect is one of the mask ROMs that
contain the necessary opcodes (unobtainium!!), see service manual pages joined.
?
wolfgang
Gesendet: Freitag, 15. November 2024 um 05:11
Von: "Brad Jackson via groups.io" <brad@...>
Betreff: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 1980B
? on: Today at 04:09:39 am ?
Anyone have a good deal of experience fixing an HP 1980B Oscilloscope?
I¡¯ve just got one and it worked for 5 seconds after I got it then the screen and buttons faded out. I replaced all the defective caps in the unit and still no go on the screen.
I¡¯m able to manually adjust the LED¡¯s by inserting a voltage into the base of the front panel character transistor so I know they CAN work but at the moment not under their own strength.
The LED¡¯s get bright when I remove the module from the front of the unit. I have no control over the RPG control. When it boots up almost all of the LED¡¯s light up so it appears as if the front panel is not talking to the microcontroller.
I have a spare unit coming from eBay next week, but it¡¯s a little frustrating when you see that item that you just purchase work very briefly. I know that it can work. More than likely, some little component died while it was turned on.
I should mention that all test points for voltages are spot on. Also I reseated and cleaned every DIP package IC with deoxit.
Also, because I was able to adjust the LED brightness by manually adjusting the control voltage, it makes me wonder if the CRT is working perfectly fine. It¡¯s just that the control voltage that is just the car and Trace intensity be turned off?
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Re: Troubleshooting a 8591e with opt 130
Hi Marco, I'll look into a way to test the A12 module, but here are a few notes... ? The test you did injecting the 300 MHz reference directly to the Spectrum, the measurement on the screen was -5dBm, and at the AUX IF output being -39.2dBm means that the overall gain of the Spectrum input was normal, if the REF LEVEL was 0dBm. This would mean that the compensation was added after the A12 stage. But it is probably during the SELFCAL that the constants received incorrect values. ? To try to find a bad stage for the gain, it will probably be necessary to work in CAL CORRECT mode at OFF ? It would be a good idea to measure the LOG detector by doing the following test (CAL CORRECT at OFF): - Ref Level at 0dBm, 300 MHz, zero span, resBW 1kHz, sweep time 1sec - Put a signal of about -70dBm, and adjusted so that the trace arrives on the -70dBm line. - Raise the level in 10dB steps, from -70 to -10. The trace should move in 10dB steps as in the picture. 
? Filters check (resBW): - CAL CORRECT to OFF - REF 300 MHz connected to input 8591E - Verify each resBW include option 130 (resBW 300Hz, 200Hz, 100Hz and 30 Hz). - Here I have superimposed the images to show you that there will be a little difference in levels and frequency, which is corrected during SELFCAL, but no big gaps between the filters. ? 
? 
? ? ? ----------------------------------------------- ? ? Here are the three images in comparison: My 8591A, your 8591E after SELFCAL and your 8591EE with default CAL. - I also injected -70dBm, starting from this level it will be easier to evaluate the value of the excess gain. - For my 8591A, when I change the REF LEVEL by -10dB, the trace goes up by +10dB, and this, for the 50dB of range involving the A12 module. - For your 8591E, some jumps have a little more than 10dB but mainly the last one, for a total of +5dB with default CAL and nearly +15dB after SELFCAL. ? 
? Send me a text file captured by the rs-232 serial link with your hpgl data, I will look at the behavior with my program. ? ?
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Re: Troubleshooting a 8591e with opt 130
Hey Yves,?
?
Thanks once more for all your fast and helpful replies! Many (paid) customersupport isn't as helpfull as you are.
?
There is no jumper on a14W1, option 130 is installed and the jumper was missing on the option module, to get it working I took the jumper from A14w1 and installed it on the opt 130 card.?
?
I did quite some measurements with the instrument both in factory default cal and after it had done it's selfcal.?
Factory default cal:
I used the TinySa generator function to generate 300MHz @-71dBm
8591E set to 300MHz, 0Hz Span, Ref level 0dBm
Levels measured:
| Ref level |
Mrkr |
| -50 |
-65 |
| -40 |
-66,5 |
| -30 |
-68,2 |
| -20 |
-69,6 |
| -10 |
-70,7 |
| 0 |
-71,5 |
?
There seems to be more than 50dB of range but I might misinterpret.?
I also did the 1dB steps, seemed to show 10 steps with the measured level changing about 1dB.?
?
Next I connected the 8591E Cal signal directly to the input, span 0 Hz, freq 300MHz, measured level -22.5dBm. Connected TinySA to the Aux IF output which measured 21.4MHz, -49.8dBm. Quite a difference from your -38dBm.
I also connected the TinySA to the 2nd converter LO Out, measured 1.799GHz, -17.3dBm
And the 600MHz out: 600MHz, 0dBm.
?
After selfcal:
Then I did a full Selfcal, did again notice strange behaviour during 3dB BW Cal, checked a vid online of a full selfcal, there the levels seem to be properly on the screen, during this 8591E selfcal it looks like this:
?
After selfcal I redid the previous measurements
?
| Ref level |
mrkr |
| -50 |
-55 |
| -40 |
-56 |
| -30 |
-57 |
| -20 |
-60 |
| -10 |
-70 |
| 0 |
-70 |
?
There is a jump with the -20dB level as can be seen in the pictures too.
I also checked the IF out after cal
8591E Cal signal directly to the input, span 0 Hz, freq 300MHz, measured level -5dBm. Connected TinySA to the Aux IF output which measured 21.4MHz, -39.2dBm. A lot closer to your -38dBm. Is the too low IF output causing an overcompensation during calibration?
?
Btw, i bought a nullmodem cable and a usb to serial adapter. I can now receive the plotter/printer output from the 8591E in serial terminal on my pc. I'll see if I can make a plot out of it with some of the online hpgl plot software.
?
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Re: HP8510 loosing detection above 20GHz
I could very well be that there is indeed a upgrade in PLL sensitivity or Sweep ADC. I can't open the 85102C as it is borrowed, but it is very interesting to understand the differences/improvements.
Does anyone has the schematics of this:
A20 Sweep ADC????????? 85102C - 85102-60234
A23 Main Phase Lock ?85102C - 85102-60227
Or has anyone perhaps these boards surplus ?
?
I will al;s look to this capacitor.
?
?
|
Anyone have a good deal of experience fixing an HP 1980B Oscilloscope?
?
I¡¯ve just got one and it worked for 5 seconds after I got it then the screen and buttons faded out. I replaced all the defective caps in the unit and still no go on the screen.
?
I¡¯m able to manually adjust the LED¡¯s by inserting a voltage into the base of the front panel character transistor so I know they CAN work but at the moment not under their own strength.
?
The LED¡¯s get bright when I remove the module from the front of the unit. I have no control over the RPG control. When it boots up almost all of the LED¡¯s light up so it appears as if the front panel is not talking to the microcontroller.
?
I have a spare unit coming from eBay next week, but it¡¯s a little frustrating when you see that item that you just purchase work very briefly. I know that it can work. More than likely, some little component died while it was turned on.
?
I should mention that all test points for voltages are spot on. Also I reseated and cleaned every DIP package IC with deoxit.
?
Also, because I was able to adjust the LED brightness by manually adjusting the control voltage, it makes me wonder if the CRT is working perfectly fine. It¡¯s just that the control voltage that is just the car and Trace intensity be turned off?
|
Re: Troubleshooting a 8591e with opt 130
Hi Marco, ? Just to be sure, is the A14W1 jumper there or not. Because, if there is a jumper installed at that position, it must be removed according to the documentation on that option 130. ? Yves ? 
? ? I continued my testing and debugging with some success. The opt 130 is showing signal now, there are supposed to be 2 jumpers on that board and only 1 was present, the other was probably used for A14W1 by the previous owner, when he removed the option. With that jumper in place i'm no longer just looking at the nosiefloor. With the option installed the cal fails on NBW 200Hz Notch failed.? Doubt that i'lll be able to fix that without schematics or adjustment options on the opt 130. Interestingly the unit does show a -22dB cal signal with the factory default cal at 350MHz in full span and 300MHz at 100MHz span.? During ampt cal the signal is way above the screen during 3db BW steps, i'm guessing something is going wrong there. After running freq and amp cal the 300MHz is back at -5dB instead of -20dB, even though the cal failed and correction off doesn't change it either.? Starting to wonder how feasible this repair will be.
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On November 14, 2024 12:42:39 PM "Greg Muir via groups.io" <big_sky_explorer@...> wrote: I recently came across this website and found it interesting. The user does not identify themselves so I am not aware as to if they may be a member of this group. There is an interesting category under ¡°Metrology¡± > ¡° RMS measurements¡± that has some nice characterization of various manufacturers equipment notably that of HP. Thought I would pass it along. He's been on my regular bedtime reading list for some time. Great stuff there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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I recently came across this website and found it interesting. The user does not identify themselves so I am not aware as to if they may be a member of this group.
There is an interesting category under ¡°Metrology¡± > ¡° RMS measurements¡± that has some nice characterization of various manufacturers equipment notably that of HP.
Thought I would pass it along.
https://dabbledoo.weebly.com/
Greg
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Re: HP8510 loosing detection above 20GHz
There¡¯s also a ceramic disc capacitor fitted between if memory serves, pins 1 and 4 on the back side of the motherboard. I don¡¯t recall the exact value, maybe 1 or 10nF. The part specified has a silly 1 kv voltage rating. As near as I can tell there¡¯s no good reason for that other than the lead spacing matches the gap between pins, and probably that it fit and HP probably had them lying around. Being on the backs side of the motherboard, it¡¯s easily overlooked while one are upgrading the cards.
?
It seems to me that the 8530R and 8510C systems had it. It also seems to me, if memory serves, that its utility might be moot if using an an 8360 or 8370 sweeper and not otherwise using the analog sweep output voltage. I¡¯m not sure about for an 8340, but I think it was specifically there for an 8350 or older sweepers with plugins.
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Re: HP8510 loosing detection above 20GHz
Found some info about differences between A and C, but not B versions of 85102.
I think, you need to compare partnumbers of A16, A20 and A23 of both 85102B you have.
?
A16 Remote Applications
85102A - Not Assigned
85102C - 85102-60235
?
A20 Sweep ADC
85102A - 85102-60020
85102C - 85102-60234
?
A23 Main Phase Lock
85102A - 85102-60023
85102C - 85102-60227
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Re: Troubleshooting a 8591e with opt 130
Hi Marco, ? The A12 module acts on a range determined by the Reference Level, between 0dBm and -50dBm. With the following configuration, I was able to verify that all the attenuation jumps are functional. ? I connect the reference to the Spectrum input, but put an external 30dB attenuator there. Thus, the source at 300 MHz which normally is -20dBm, will have been read as -50dBm. ? PRESET CENTER FREQ 300 MHz SPAN 0 REF LEVEL 0DBM. ? By changing the reference level from 0dBm to -50dBm, by 10dB jump with the UP/DOWN arrows, you will see if all the attenuators are functional. And at your choice for a Reference Level between 0dBm and -40dBm, make 1dB jumps to check the calibration attenuator. ? But having as RF level read at 300 MHz of -5dBm instead of -20dBm, add another 15dB of external attenuation and put the resBW at 100kHz. The goal is to check the 50dB range of the A12 module. If A12 has 50dB of range then, the problem is maybe on A16. ? But, a measurement on AUX IF could be revealing. Without any external attenuator, enter the 300 MHz reference to the Spectrum and put the reference level at 0dBm. On my side I read, -38.2dBm at 21.4MHz. The AUX IF OUTPUT on the rear panel is connected to A13, the module that follows A12. ? Yves ? 
? 
? ? (and the rest of the group ;) ) Yesterday I soldered new resistors in the attenuator, it needed some tweaking to get the response flat but I finished it today. I checked all the settings with a LiteVNA. The 10dB isn't perfect but close enough for now.? Att Setting | 300MHz | 600MHz | 900MHz | 1,2GHz | 1,5GHz | 1,8GHz | 10dB | -10,5 | -10,8 | -11 | -11 | -10,7 | -10 | 20dB | -21 | -21,2 | -21,2 | -21,3 | -21,5 | -21,6 | 30dB | -30,8 | -30,7 | -30,4 | -30,2 | -30 | -30 | 10+20 | -30,6 | -30,9 | -31 | -31 | -30,6 | -29,6 | 10+30 | -40,5 | -40,4 | -40,2 | -40 | -39,2 | -38 | 20+30 | -50,9 | -50,6 | -50,4 | -50 | -49,8 | -49,7 | 10+20+30 | -60,7 | -61,2 | -61,5 | -62 | -62,1 | -61,2 |
I build the attenuator back into the analyzer and checked the function. The resulting levels are looking better, not perfect though. I'm expecting this will be fixed with new mixer diodes which should be in soon. Before Fix | ? | ? | Now | ? | | ? | | | ? | | Level | | | Level | | -22 | | | -15,7 | | -12 | | | -16,3 | | -21 | | | -17,3 | | -26 | | | -18,7 | | -19 | | | -20,9 | | -21 | | | -21,8 |
I did a full self call which successfully passed and a confidence test which also passed. The resulting Cal signal on screen though is still up at -5dBm instead of the expected -20dBm (I double checked the Cal output of the SA with another SA and it is around -20dBm. ) I'm starting to think there must be a problem with the calibration attenuator in A12, causing this level mismatch. Any experience with that? Or thoughts on how to verify it? Otherwise I guess i'm just going to take the A12 module out to have a look.
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Re: HP8510 loosing detection above 20GHz
If you like let me see the traces.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 13 Nov 2024, at 10:47, Maarten PA0MHE via groups.io <maarten.heuvelman@...> wrote:
?
All thanks for your support.
?
David: I'm searching for such a special connector to build a HP85102B testkit, W.I.P.
Could be that the hard stop has to do with bandswitching in the HP8340A, I don't know the bandlimits, but as said it works perfectly with another HP85102B.
I could not find the BST for the synthesizer, is this in the HP8510 service menu ?
?
Patricio: The strange thing is that the whole system works perfectly up-to 26.5GHz with only a different IF-Detector HP85102B.
I measured the 26.5GHz RF level of the Sweeper HP8340A, this is just below 20dBm, so quite strong.?
I also observed the 20MHz level on a1 and a2: starting at a RF of 1GHz it drops constantly till the highest frequency 26.5GHz. But this is what we should expect as the harmonic mixing output goes down with 20LOG(n), I don't know what 20MHz amplitude I should expect on a1 and a2 (above 20G)
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Re: 8510C Using 8673G Synthesized CW Generator
On 11/13/24 19:44, Charles Edmonds via groups.io wrote: does anyone know of the 8673G being able to be used with the 8510C please? To my knowledge there is no 8673 support at all in the 8510. Apart from that, the whole architecture is built around its source being a sweeper, not a CW signal generator. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Re: HP8510 loosing detection above 20GHz
Question - is your 85102 a "native B" model or an upgraded A model.? If it is an upgrade, there were two different upgrades for the A.? It is possible that only one of them was made.? There is an HP note on this,? I will look to see if I can find it.? Otherwise some one else who has the upgrade note handy could supply it.
?
Testing the 85101/85102 with the 8510 test set emulator connector is also strongly advised.? You can purchase the test set emulator or build one yourself, there are pictrues posted in the groups wiki.
?
Cheers!
Bruce
?
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8510C Using 8673G Synthesized CW Generator
Hi,
?
does anyone know of the 8673G being able to be used with the 8510C please?
?
regards
Charles Edmonds
VK3CLE
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Re: Troubleshooting a 8591e with opt 130
Hi Yves,
(and the rest of the group ;) )
?
Yesterday I soldered new resistors in the attenuator, it needed some tweaking to get the response flat but I finished it today.
I checked all the settings with a LiteVNA. The 10dB isn't perfect but close enough for now.?
| Att Setting |
300MHz |
600MHz |
900MHz |
1,2GHz |
1,5GHz |
1,8GHz |
| 10dB |
-10,5 |
-10,8 |
-11 |
-11 |
-10,7 |
-10 |
| 20dB |
-21 |
-21,2 |
-21,2 |
-21,3 |
-21,5 |
-21,6 |
| 30dB |
-30,8 |
-30,7 |
-30,4 |
-30,2 |
-30 |
-30 |
| 10+20 |
-30,6 |
-30,9 |
-31 |
-31 |
-30,6 |
-29,6 |
| 10+30 |
-40,5 |
-40,4 |
-40,2 |
-40 |
-39,2 |
-38 |
| 20+30 |
-50,9 |
-50,6 |
-50,4 |
-50 |
-49,8 |
-49,7 |
| 10+20+30 |
-60,7 |
-61,2 |
-61,5 |
-62 |
-62,1 |
-61,2 |
?
I build the attenuator back into the analyzer and checked the function.
The resulting levels are looking better, not perfect though. I'm expecting this will be fixed with new mixer diodes which should be in soon.
| Before Fix |
? |
? |
Now |
? |
|
?300MHz:
|
? |
?
|
?300MHz:
|
? |
|
Att
|
Level |
?
|
Att
|
Level |
|
10
|
-22 |
?
|
10
|
-15,7 |
|
20
|
-12 |
?
|
20
|
-16,3 |
|
30
|
-21 |
?
|
30
|
-17,3 |
|
40
|
-26 |
?
|
40
|
-18,7 |
|
50
|
-19 |
?
|
50
|
-20,9 |
|
60
|
-21 |
?
|
60
|
-21,8 |
?
I did a full self call which successfully passed and a confidence test which also passed.
The resulting Cal signal on screen though is still up at -5dBm instead of the expected -20dBm (I double checked the Cal output of the SA with another SA and it is around -20dBm. )
I'm starting to think there must be a problem with the calibration attenuator in A12, causing this level mismatch. Any experience with that? Or thoughts on how to verify it? Otherwise I guess i'm just going to take the A12 module out to have a look.
?
Marco
|
Locked
Re: Wandel & Goltermann DA-30C software..
Hi Dale,
Happy to hear it might be useful ;) I found several sites having W&G documentation but nothing related to the DA-30C. If you ever manage to find software, or if you are able to recover software from your machines I would be very happy to know... Anyway, good luck with your repairs once you get to them ;)
On Wed, Nov 13, 2024 at 5:41?PM Dale Chayes/KB1ZKD via <dale= [email protected]> wrote: AWESOME, great write up.
I have two DA-30s in various states salvaged from e-whatever, that I hope to get to someday.
When I do, this will be a huge help!
Some time back and found a W&G archive site but can find the reference at the moment.
?thank you!
-Dale
> On Nov 13, 2024, at 02:26 , FritsJ via <jal=[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi Allan,
>
> I wrote down what I did with my DA30C here:
>
>
> It has a link to the disk image I retrieved. It only has the DOS software, sadly enough.. Perhaps you are able to repair the HDD using the same method I used¡
>
> Let me know how it goes!
>
> Regards,
>
> Frits
>
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2024 at 01:24, allan.waldeck via <allan.waldeck=[email protected]> wrote:
> Good morning, I just stumbled across this looking for the exact same thing.
> I have a DA-30C that the RTC battery, Floppy drive and HDD had died. I have it up and running dos again but lost all the W&G specific software.
>?
> FritsJ, how did you go with re-setting up your DA-30C?
> Bernhard Wulf, Would I be able to get a copy of your DA-30 HDD too?
>?
>?
> Cheers,
> Allan
>
>
>
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Brad Jackson
Dave McGuire
Patricio A. Greco
FritsJ