Re: What happened to HP/Agilent detailed circuit schematics
I think this sums up the difference between an enthusiast/hobby activity and a commercial organisation which only wishes to sell you new items or protect its IP. ? When there are less cost/time constraints or the instrument has bits of unobtainium in it then it is commendable and sometimes surprising the private individual will go to in an effort to restore or maintain a piece of equipment. ? I can admit to being in a broadly similar situation right now with equipment that may one day want to be resurrected. ? I will do my level best to retain as much as is practical but some (quite a lot of it) has to go¡ We have a quite large inventory of cards for equipment which are about to be thinned out (going to recycling) and at the same time I am keen to ensure that a sufficient quantity of parts will be kept for the foreseeable future (just in case) meanwhile satisfying the management decree to downsize/reduce etc. etc. ? I know from experience that once the items are gone we¡¯ll have an urgent requirement for some long lost part ¨C so some careful reclamation/part harvesting of old memory chips and the like will happen before the cards reach the recycling bins. ? Unfortunately gone are the days where the beautifully produced tech manuals and servicing diagrams from the likes of HP, Tek, Marconi and others were produced, but as already been said by other contributors on this forum, the large investment in a tech pubs team means that the bean counters won¡¯t stand for it. As such, the barest minimum to produce an item is made available to ¡®in-house only¡¯ or selected external operations for most IP. ? The analogy with cars is very well made ¨C years ago, us older generation would service our cars brakes and do the plugs and points ourselves. Because of the complexity in the electronics in our vehicles, nowadays you pay the earth for a ¡®technician¡¯ to plug it in to some box that says ¡¯change xyz item¡¯, of course you still pay for all the parts he uses but doesn¡¯t fix the fault, as they will get fitted then removed and the original item put back on in many cases if it doesn¡¯t fix it.. But the customer still pay¡ ? Rant mode = Off. ? Nigel ? ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave B via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2024 5:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] What happened to HP/Agilent detailed circuit schematics? With enough tenacity even at home you can repair stuff that you wouldn't believe possible. Here's a picture of a 2mm square pressure sensor with 10 SMD pads hidden underneath, I had to fit this to a pcb and no way had a solder stencil. So I bought some 0.3mm BGA solder balls and carefully placed one on each pad. I then reflowed them in my homebrew (sandwich toaster) reflow oven. Turned the chip over and rubbed it on some plain A4 paper to level all the tops of the balls, then placed it on the pcb and reflowed it into place.
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Re: What happened to HP/Agilent detailed circuit schematics
On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 07:52:01AM -0700, Matt Harris wrote: Could you imagine the outrage if, say, Ford required NDAs to be signed by independent repair facilities (or even backyard mechanics) just to be able to purchase the instructions, gaskets, and the special tool required to align the camshaft to the crankshaft in order to replace the head gaskets on their engines? You haven't tried to flash an auto related module recently I take it? You may not need an NDA but you do need $$$. As more of the functionality moves to software the ability to modify, change or fix it resides with the manufacturer. The economics drive it and there's not much you can do about it. I have a very nice Wavetek/Wandel Goltermann network cable analyzer. That division got bought out by Ideal and discontinued. So if that ever breaks (actually when) I'm out $3k with no option to repair. That's the way it is. That's why, as far as possible, I try to stick with instruments from the 80s and early 90s with documentation and support groups. Some things have improved a great deal, but most actual measurements haven't changed much. And when things break I can generally fix them. Paul -- Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Manchester MI, USA Aurora Group of Michigan, LLC | Security, Systems & Software paul@... | Unix/Linux - We don't do windows
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Re: OT MathCad 7 Professional
Hi, Peter (and others),
??? Another good source for 'Abandonware' is vetusware.com. In fact, I found a downloadable for MathCAD 7 pro.
??? I hope that helps.
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On 27-Aug-24 07:58, peter bunge wrote: Asking for a friend, his words:
About 30 years ago I started using MathCAD for most of my calculations.
It used standard algebraic display of equations - which after Fortran
seemed so easy ....
I eventually got MathCAD 7 for use with my consulting work? - Was great !
Many years later, I bought MathCAD 13 - and found - to my dismay - that
they (Mathsoft) had not made it backward compatible !
All my old files needed to be seriously modified!? ---- So I stayed with
Version 7 .
My MathCAD 7 was the "standard" version - not the "Professional" version
- although both used the same manual !
Some functions were not available in my standard version - in
particular, "DO" loops !
I managed for years without them --- but then, about 3 years ago, my
requirement for large iterative calculations got to be basically
impossible using my "work-arounds".
I am 82 years old - and not keen to learn a whole new language --- so I
wondered if I could buy an old "used" version of? Mathcad 7
"professional" ? Is such a thing done?
I would hope to put it on my Windows 10 system computer - just the way I
did with my old, standard, MathCAD 7 version.
??With my old standard version, I simply transferred the old file into
the new computer, using the same file file structure, onto the C drive
of the new machine - and it worked !
No fancy installation with codes and passwords required - I was amazed !
If anyone can help me to acquire? the "Professional" version, I`m happy
to pay for the? file and the service. Ron.
Failing that can anyone suggest a modern software package with an easy learning curve to replace the MathCad 7 Professional?
Preferably something without being locked into passwords, auto-billing, and endless updates that prevent work being done (like Microsoft's products).
Bear in mind all his old files will have to be edited.
I realize this is likely to open a can of worms so please be objective to the requirements.
PeterB
--
Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin@...
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (Red Green)
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Re: OT MathCad 7 Professional
On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 07:58 AM, peter bunge wrote:
Some functions were not available in my standard version - in
particular, "DO" loops !
I know Fortran has do loops. (And many other coding languages do too.)
If you friend is 'after' do loops... I'm pretty sure that Mathcad Professional 7.0 does not have 'do loops' (just for and while loops)
?
Mathcad, Matlab, Octave et. al., are based on computations with matrices, and vectors... not only... but that's appears to be the original 'design' philosophy.
Many operations on those mathematical objects translate 'naturally' to 'for loops', like summation, and matrix multiplication.
In the days of limited CPU 'power' on PCs, when Mathcad, and Matlab, first came about, for loops were faster... and that mattered for matrix computations on large dimensional matrices/
I don't think any of these so called 'numerical computing environments' support 'do loop' loops... even in the latest versions.
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Re: What happened to HP/Agilent detailed circuit schematics
Nice one Matt,
I've even been known to repair scrap equipment ?just for the challenge....and then throw it away!
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Re: What happened to HP/Agilent detailed circuit schematics
Once again, it doesn't matter how I would repair it or whomever would.? It is about having the choice.? The customer having the choice to repair the item THEY BOUGHT, the way they want to it.? They should be able to make the determination of which repair is economically viable.? What is an economically viable repair to you is different for me.? Because we have different skill sets.??
I'll give a perfect example.? I am a big DIYer for automotive repair.? There's a YouTube channel I follow called the 'Car Care Nut' (if you own a Toyota I highly recommend this channel).? He was once a master Toyota tech who started his own shop.? He puts out at least once a month a video where a customer took their car to a dealership for repair.? The dealership cost them thousands of dollars, they threw parts cannon at it, and then said they couldn't fix it.? The customer then goes to the Car Care Nut and he finds the issue in 5 mins.? It is a perfect example of the problem of allowing the manufacturers to set the standards for repair.? It is not up to them to decide for many reasons, but the main one being they do NOT have well-being of the customer at the forefront.? In your world (Vladan and others), would you be okay with this outcome? You'd be content to go to this manufacturer providing this level of service?? Because I can tell you from experience, in the biotech world, the level of repair service isn't much different.
?
Seriously, if you are okay with manufacturers being the only ones allowed to service their products (because that is the direction it is heading in), then they should call it leasing and not purchasing the items they are selling.
?
-Frank
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Re: What happened to HP/Agilent detailed circuit schematics
Nicely put Frank.
With enough tenacity even at home you can repair stuff that you wouldn't believe possible.
Here's a picture of a 2mm square pressure sensor with 10 SMD pads hidden underneath, I had to fit this to a pcb and no way had a solder stencil.
So I bought some 0.3mm BGA solder balls and carefully placed one on each pad. I then reflowed them in my homebrew (sandwich toaster) reflow oven.
Turned the chip over and rubbed it on some plain A4 paper to level all the tops of the balls, then placed it on the pcb and reflowed it into place.
Job done :-)
Dave
?
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Re: OT MathCad 7 Professional
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-------- Original message -------- From: n4buq <n4buq@...> Date: 8/27/24 18:16 (GMT+02:00) Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] OT MathCad 7 Professional
Wow.? 82 years old, still competent? with software skills, and can write a very cogent and easy to follow message.? I'm impressed.? I hope that in 11 more years, I'm still here and can do as well.
Barry - N4BUQ Asking for a friend, his words:
?
About 30 years ago I started using MathCAD for most of my calculations.
It used standard algebraic display of equations - which after Fortran
seemed so easy ....
I eventually got MathCAD 7 for use with my consulting work? - Was great !
Many years later, I bought MathCAD 13 - and found - to my dismay - that
they (Mathsoft) had not made it backward compatible !
All my old files needed to be seriously modified!? ---- So I stayed with
Version 7 .
My MathCAD 7 was the "standard" version - not the "Professional" version
- although both used the same manual !
Some functions were not available in my standard version - in
particular, "DO" loops !
I managed for years without them --- but then, about 3 years ago, my
requirement for large iterative calculations got to be basically
impossible using my "work-arounds".
I am 82 years old - and not keen to learn a whole new language --- so I
wondered if I could buy an old "used" version of? Mathcad 7
"professional"? ? Is such a thing done?
I would hope to put it on my Windows 10 system computer - just the way I
did with my old, standard, MathCAD 7 version.
??With my old standard version, I simply transferred the old file into
the new computer, using the same file file structure, onto the C drive
of the new machine - and it worked !
No fancy installation with codes and passwords required - I was amazed !
If anyone can help me to acquire? the "Professional" version, I`m happy
to pay for the? file and the service. Ron.
?
Failing that can anyone suggest a modern software package with an easy learning curve to replace the MathCad 7 Professional?
Preferably something without being locked into passwords, auto-billing, and endless updates that prevent work being done (like Microsoft's products).
Bear in mind all his old files will have to be edited.
I realize this is likely to open a can of worms so please be objective to the requirements.
PeterB
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Re: OT MathCad 7 Professional
Peter,
?
I am not a Mathcad user, so the following may not be of value. But then again, it may. One of the places where old software lives is "The Internet Archive". Here is a link to Mathcad 6 professional. It looks like it originally came on 8 floppy disks.
?
https://archive.org/details/software?tab=collection&query=mathcad
?
Vladan
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Re: OT MathCad 7 Professional
Wow.? 82 years old, still competent? with software skills, and can write a very cogent and easy to follow message.? I'm impressed.? I hope that in 11 more years, I'm still here and can do as well.
Barry - N4BUQ
Asking for a friend, his words:
?
About 30 years ago I started using MathCAD for most of my calculations.
It used standard algebraic display of equations - which after Fortran
seemed so easy ....
I eventually got MathCAD 7 for use with my consulting work? - Was great !
Many years later, I bought MathCAD 13 - and found - to my dismay - that
they (Mathsoft) had not made it backward compatible !
All my old files needed to be seriously modified!? ---- So I stayed with
Version 7 .
My MathCAD 7 was the "standard" version - not the "Professional" version
- although both used the same manual !
Some functions were not available in my standard version - in
particular, "DO" loops !
I managed for years without them --- but then, about 3 years ago, my
requirement for large iterative calculations got to be basically
impossible using my "work-arounds".
I am 82 years old - and not keen to learn a whole new language --- so I
wondered if I could buy an old "used" version of? Mathcad 7
"professional"? ? Is such a thing done?
I would hope to put it on my Windows 10 system computer - just the way I
did with my old, standard, MathCAD 7 version.
??With my old standard version, I simply transferred the old file into
the new computer, using the same file file structure, onto the C drive
of the new machine - and it worked !
No fancy installation with codes and passwords required - I was amazed !
If anyone can help me to acquire? the "Professional" version, I`m happy
to pay for the? file and the service. Ron.
?
Failing that can anyone suggest a modern software package with an easy learning curve to replace the MathCad 7 Professional?
Preferably something without being locked into passwords, auto-billing, and endless updates that prevent work being done (like Microsoft's products).
Bear in mind all his old files will have to be edited.
I realize this is likely to open a can of worms so please be objective to the requirements.
PeterB
|
Re: What happened to HP/Agilent detailed circuit schematics
Alwyn,
?
You are quite correct, the military had stringent documentation requirements and they were willing to pay. Things have flipped indeed when it comes to dual use items. Nowadays, ITAR looms over the T&M industry, to the point that even data sheets for semiconductors are on the sparse side. Pictures of chips are blurred out with only bonding pads visible. Quite the opposite from what the military wanted during the cold war days.
?
The T&M business is, relatively speaking, small. Keysight annual revenue is ~USD 5.5B. The environmental impact from this segment is tiny compared to the damage inflicted by bored consumers. Even so, some instruments are highly repairable via assembly replacement without any need for factory software or schematics. You can take a board out of one analyzer and plug it into another. What little calibration is needed does not require any factory software. The caveat is, you swap the whole board. From an industrial or military customer's standpoint, this is probably the best solution they can hope for.
?
Vladan
?
On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 01:54 AM, alwyn.seeds1 wrote:
Dear All,
?
One of the issues has been change of customer requirements. Back in the HP Days, the US and other military customers did component level equipment repair; they therefore required complete service documentation, the structure of which was defined down to the typefaces to be used. Those customers met the very considerable cost of creating this documentation. Post Cold-War, the military customers changed their repair policy, the proportion of business that was military reduced and the manufacturers responded accordingly.
?
We are very fortunate that both HP and Tektronix made much of the documentation available to all customers. Other manufacturers, such as Rohde and Schwarz, did not.
?
Regards,
?
Alwyn
|
OT MathCad 7 Professional
Asking for a friend, his words:
?
About 30 years ago I started using MathCAD for most of my calculations.
It used standard algebraic display of equations - which after Fortran
seemed so easy ....
I eventually got MathCAD 7 for use with my consulting work? - Was great !
Many years later, I bought MathCAD 13 - and found - to my dismay - that
they (Mathsoft) had not made it backward compatible !
All my old files needed to be seriously modified!? ---- So I stayed with
Version 7 .
My MathCAD 7 was the "standard" version - not the "Professional" version
- although both used the same manual !
Some functions were not available in my standard version - in
particular, "DO" loops !
I managed for years without them --- but then, about 3 years ago, my
requirement for large iterative calculations got to be basically
impossible using my "work-arounds".
I am 82 years old - and not keen to learn a whole new language --- so I
wondered if I could buy an old "used" version of? Mathcad 7
"professional"? ? Is such a thing done?
I would hope to put it on my Windows 10 system computer - just the way I
did with my old, standard, MathCAD 7 version.
??With my old standard version, I simply transferred the old file into
the new computer, using the same file file structure, onto the C drive
of the new machine - and it worked !
No fancy installation with codes and passwords required - I was amazed !
If anyone can help me to acquire? the "Professional" version, I`m happy
to pay for the? file and the service. Ron.
?
Failing that can anyone suggest a modern software package with an easy learning curve to replace the MathCad 7 Professional?
Preferably something without being locked into passwords, auto-billing, and endless updates that prevent work being done (like Microsoft's products).
Bear in mind all his old files will have to be edited.
I realize this is likely to open a can of worms so please be objective to the requirements.
PeterB
|
Re: What happened to HP/Agilent detailed circuit schematics
On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 01:55 AM, Nik Milosevic wrote:
so the contractors definitely have repair procedures and schematics (and sign strict NDA's to be able to get them)
Could you imagine the outrage if, say, Ford required NDAs to be signed by independent repair facilities (or even backyard mechanics) just to be able to purchase the instructions, gaskets, and the special tool required to align the camshaft to the crankshaft in order to replace the head gaskets on their engines??? That's how much this mentality (Apple is certainly one of the largest offenders) that has infiltrated the electronic device industry has eroded consumer trust from those of us who know more than just how to turn the device on and off.
?
If I can't fix it myself if I had the desire to do so, I really doubt that I actually need it.? Until the rest of the tech-types in the world reach that realization, making the manufacturers change that mentality would be much more difficult than herding cats.
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Re: What happened to HP/Agilent detailed circuit schematics
How would you replace a bad FPGA? (Assume BGA, please, and internal data storage).? How would you replace a bad mask programmed microprocessor (or even one that isn't)?
Programming hardware (to write to the chip) is generally 100 to 400 dollars depending on manufacturer, let alone the program to run it.? There are exceptions, of course.? ATMEL is reasonable, ST Micro is reasonable, others I have no experience with.
I use a very limited spectrum of chips in my designs for just such a reason.
Harvey
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On 8/27/2024 12:01 AM, Frank Mashockie wrote: Chuck,
Fair enough.? I get your point.? I think you could have used a better example though.? I understand the difficulties in passing legislation.? I already stated that I don't think legislation is the best way.
The difference between your example and mine is that the average consumer does not have the tools to manufacturer lightbulb filaments.? But they can easily grab the tools to repair their own electronics.? Especially if the manufacturers provided them the resources like they used to.
Also, IMO the main factor that decides whether or not a repair is economically viable is time.? And what sets aside modern equipment from older ones is that service resources aren't made available anymore.? Which makes repair longer.? I have no problem getting modern equipment repaired as fast as older equipment when the schematics/service tools are available.? In fact, sometimes the modern stuff is quicker.? SMD work is faster than thru hole IMO.
-Frank
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Dear Jaret hi. Thank you for your reply. I had a suspicion that it my be the button in the panel. I will order a set and I hope that it will resolve the problem because I can't find any problem in the circuits . Thank you again.? My best regards? Nick SV1VS?
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-------- Original message -------- From: "Jared Cabot via groups.io" <jaredcabot@...> Date: 8/26/24 19:36 (GMT+02:00) Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] E4418B
I had a similar problem with mine, the power button barely worked at all.
?
It turned out to be a worn out mylar button membrane under the rubber button caps.
?
You can buy them relatively cheaply on Aliexpress and Ebay if you shop around a bit and they aren't too hard to replace.
?
There are a couple tricks to do the replacement though, so report back if you do decide to replace it and I can help you through it before you accidentally break something. :)
?
It's also worth replacing the internal battery too before your instrument gets amnesia and forgets what it is (model and revision data etc is kept in battery backed RAM), just be sure to take photos of all the serial number and revision number data in the menu there somewhere.
Keysight have simple instructions on how to reprogram the model data, as long as you know what it is... ;)
?
?
Regards
Jared
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Re: What happened to HP/Agilent detailed circuit schematics
I agree 100%.
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On 8/27/2024 8:42 AM, Frank Mashockie via groups.io wrote: I think some of you are missing the point.? You're telling me (as if to be reassurred this is how its supposed to be) that because the manufacturers themselves are no longer doing component level repair of PCBs, that is how it is supposed to be?? Then we are even worse off then I originally thought!? That still doesn't solve the issue.? Typically (at least for lab equipment I work on) the most expensive component to replace is the main PCB. It also tends to be on backorder the most.? So when you have a failure, the consumer is going to get rid of this product for something new.? And that needs to stop.? That's my point.? The fact that the technology is newer or more complex is a cop out.? It can still be repaired and quite easily if the resources are made available.? You can't tell me that HP/Agilent/etc don't still create schematics and service manuals for their instruments - they just keep them proprietary now.? We have better tools now to do component level repair than ever before; and now you're telling me we don't do it because its too hard? Thats ridiculous.
Also, in my experience, these manufacturers aren't even willing to sell replacement parts unless the repair is completed by a 'qualified service tech'.? I run into this all the time. And then they inflate the price of cost and labor for repair since you have no other choice but to go to them (believe me I do my best to find another way - thats my job).? So please don't make this issue sound like the manufacturer is just adjusting with the times.? They have great incentive to keep it this way.
-Frank
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Re: What happened to HP/Agilent detailed circuit schematics
I think some of you are missing the point.? You're telling me (as if to be reassurred this is how its supposed to be) that because the manufacturers themselves are no longer doing component level repair of PCBs, that is how it is supposed to be?? Then we are even worse off then I originally thought!? That still doesn't solve the issue.? Typically (at least for lab equipment I work on) the most expensive component to replace is the main PCB. It also tends to be on backorder the most.? So when you have a failure, the consumer is going to get rid of this product for something new.? And that needs to stop.? That's my point.? The fact that the technology is newer or more complex is a cop out.? It can still be repaired and quite easily if the resources are made available.? You can't tell me that HP/Agilent/etc don't still create schematics and service manuals for their instruments - they just keep them proprietary now.? We have better tools now to do component level repair than ever before; and now you're telling me we don't do it because its too hard? Thats ridiculous.
?
Also, in my experience, these manufacturers aren't even willing to sell replacement parts unless the repair is completed by a 'qualified service tech'.? I run into this all the time.? And then they inflate the price of cost and labor for repair since you have no other choice but to go to them (believe me I do my best to find another way - thats my job).? So please don't make this issue sound like the manufacturer is just adjusting with the times.? They have great incentive to keep it this way.??
?
-Frank
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Re: What happened to HP/Agilent detailed circuit schematics
I hear R&S makes some nice gear, I don't have any.? Pretty much unrepairable.
I was given a very nice R&S transceiver that pretty much worked but has some problems.? Unrepairable, even with module swap, due to recalibration being necessary.? And special software is required which is not released outside the company.? The cost to get that done far exceeds the value of the radio, if R&S would even perform the work for an individual, which they won't.? What a turn-off.
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On 8/27/2024 4:54 AM, alwyn.seeds1 via groups.io wrote: Dear All,
One of the issues has been change of customer requirements. Back in the HP Days, the US and other military customers did component level equipment repair; they therefore required complete service documentation, the structure of which was defined down to the typefaces to be used. Those customers met the very considerable cost of creating this documentation. Post Cold-War, the military customers changed their repair policy, the proportion of business that was military reduced and the manufacturers responded accordingly.
We are very fortunate that both HP and Tektronix made much of the documentation available to all customers. Other manufacturers, such as Rohde and Schwarz, did not.
Regards,
Alwyn
_____________________________________________________
Alwyn Seeds, Director
SynOptika Ltd.,
114 Beaufort Street,
London,
SW3 6BU,
England.
SynOptika Ltd., Registered in England and Wales: No. 04606737
Registered Office: 114 Beaufort Street, London, SW3 6BU, United Kingdom.
_____________________________________________________
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Re: What happened to HP/Agilent detailed circuit schematics
I don't agree that programming a custom chip is difficult.? Chip programmers are cheap and plentiful on the market and common with hobbyists.
What may be uneconomical for a manufacturer might be very economical in a repair situation.
Take two examples:
A manufacturer considers it uneconomical to repair a PCB, but they have no stock of replacement boards.? This forces the customer to purchase an entirely new instrument instead of repairing what might be a simple fault.? This might be a win for the manufacturer but the customer sees it as a costly loss.
An aerospace or military customer has approved test procedures which involve very specific pieces of test equipment which are no longer supported.? Changing the procedures would be enormously expensive due to the approval process, far in excess of the cost of new equipment.
The manufacturing processes themselves may be easier than they seem.? For example replacing a BGA part on a modern PCB seems to be a daunting maybe impossible task but with the right equipment and skills even sidewalk vendors in some Chinese cities can do it successfully right there in front of you in a few minutes.
Sure, I've repaired many pieces of equipment without any service info but it can be hit or miss.? Most frequently, and for most people, the difference between repairable and not is that of documentation.
Peter
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On 8/26/2024 11:40 PM, Chuck Harris via groups.io wrote: Sadly, I didn't think you would understand...
I inferred your desire to share in proprietary manufacturing
processes from what you were asking.
Programming a custom chip is a part of the manufacturing process
(just like forging a tungsten filament). It requires specialized
equipment, and specialized knowledge that most are incapable of
understanding even if it is spoon fed to them.
We think nothing of replacing the whole light bulb, when the
filament burns out (although that hasn't always been the case)...
Why is it so hard to understand that like a light bulb, a modern
circuit board can also be uneconomical to repair?
-Chuck Harris
On Mon, 26 Aug 2024 14:46:49 -0700 "Frank Mashockie"
<fmashockie@...> wrote:
Nice try smart ass.? Where did I say share their manufacturing
process?
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Re: HP8566B - Making sense of the figures
That's very noble of you, Ozan. And if it's of any reassurance, leaving everything I own to animal charities has been my plan all along and I made a Will out to that effect many years ago. Now a working 8566B will become a part of that estate and add some useful value to it!
One final time: THANK YOU!
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Bruce Lane
Frank Mashockie
Jinxie