Sorry Dave!!
Got confused before the third cup of coffee!!
On 28 Feb 2021 at 12:19, Dave McGuire wrote:

Eliud is the guy with the 8640B problem, not me.

I'm pretty familiar with them; I've had three and have used them
a
lot, and repaired them a few times.

Though, it has been years since I've powered one up...If memory
serves, the output level meter does not indicate power when the RF
output switch is set to off.

-Dave

On 2/28/21 8:43 AM, kim.herron@... wrote:

I don't know how familiar you are with the 8640B. Is the
RF output switch set to on?? In on the front panel right
above the main output on the generator. Look there first.
If you're not familiar with the gear, it's easily missed.



On 27 Feb 2021 at 22:00, Dave McGuire wrote:

On 2/27/21 9:51 PM, Eliud Caraballo wrote:

I have this 8640b that got used, it shows voltage on the meter

but

does

not have RF out. the frequency display works and tracks but

the

output

does not trigger my 5328a counter.

Were should I start first to troubleshoot ? im perplexed that

can

see

voltage with no output.

If I remember the 8640B's topology correctly, the detector

that

drives the level meter circuit is after the RF amplifier, but
before
the attenuator. The attenuator could have a problem (either

fried

by
reverse power input, or contact problems), or the cable from

the

attenuator to the output bulkhead connector could have failed.

Do you have some way of measuring approximate RF power, like

an

RF
power meter, or a coaxial crystal detector?

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Kim Herron W8ZV
kim.herron@...
1-616-677-3706

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Kim Herron W8ZV
kim.herron@...
1-616-677-3706

? Thank you Bruce, that's a far more succinct way of putting it!

???????????? -Dave

On 2/28/21 10:49 AM, Bruce wrote:

As pointed out in the last paragraph - providing uncertainty and
traceability is a method of MARKET SEGMENTATION.? You can charge less
to people who don't really need it and charge additional to those who
are required to have it.

I also was pleased with the fact that they provide the reflection data.

It does not necessarily reflect on the quality of the work.

Cheers!

Bruce


Quoting Dave McGuire <mcguire@...>:

On 2/27/21 11:44 PM, Stephen Hanselman wrote:

They can provide tracibility for absolutely no extra charge. ?Allthey need to do is list the equipment used and the recall date.

? Of course they can.? But often, companies produce reduced-cost
versions of products and services that omit certain features.? In
the calibration industry, one of those features is traceability
records. This is commonplace in the industry today, and is nothing
new.

IF they are a legit Cal Lab all of their equipment is calibrated,
some internally some externally and records are maintained. ?Theyuse the same equipment to “cal” your equipment wether they write a
cert. or not.

? Of course.? And most companies charge you extra to provide the
serial numbers, calibration dates, and uncertainties of the
equipment used to perform the calibration with your
freshly-calibrated instrument.

If they don’t supply a cert. as part of the job find a new lab that does.

? Well, pretty much all of them do it this way.? This is not new.

Running a cal facility REQUIRES that you do certain things of you
don’t you are not a cal lab

? Yes, but providing traceability records is not one of those
things. It should be, but it isn't.

? Another thing that happened in that world in the past not huge
number of years is that "calibration" no longer means "calibration",
it means "measurement".? Back in the good old days, when you got
something calibrated, it got ADJUSTED if it needed it.? They don't
do that anymore by default, unless you pay a whole lot more.

? I've gotten quite a bit of very good test equipment from a local
biggish company because it "failed calibration".? When digging
around a bit with friends who work there, I found out that the
"calibration" service that they use, which is Tektronix, doesn't
adjust anything. They merely measure it, and if it's out of spec, it
has "failed calibration" and is returned with a red tag stating
such.? This dumbass company has taken that to mean "it's broken and
must therefore be thrown out", to the delight of the companies from
whom they purchase test equipment.

? This is, as it should not be surprising to hear, an engineering
company that has a lot more managers on staff than engineers.? I
laugh at them regularly for BS like this.? Stupid suits.? A lot of
really dumb things are done in this industry, and nearly all of them
can be traced back to suits trying to wring money out of clueless
management people. The story above is a prime example, but
calibration labs not providing traceability documentation if you
don't actually need it really isn't.

? You see, a hobbyist or ham radio operator can send his Fluke 87 or
whatever in for calibration, and get it back with confidence that
his/her measurements are good.? But would that person pay an extra
couple hundred bucks for the stack of pages containing the
calibration traceability information?? No, because that information
is of no value to that person.? The calibration company doesn't save
any money by omitting it, but it does allow them to offer a cheaper
service to people who don't need that documentation, while avoiding
reducing their prices down too much on the services that their bread
& butter customers require.

??????????? -Dave

--?
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

As pointed out in the last paragraph - providing uncertainty and
traceability is a method of MARKET SEGMENTATION.? You can charge less
to people who don't really need it and charge additional to those who
are required to have it.
I also was pleased with the fact that they provide the reflection data.
It does not necessarily reflect on the quality of the work.
Cheers!
Bruce
Quoting Dave McGuire <mcguire@...>:

On 2/27/21 11:44 PM, Stephen Hanselman wrote:

They can provide tracibility for absolutely no extra charge. ?Allthey need to do is list the equipment used and the recall date.

? Of course they can.? But often, companies produce reduced-cost
versions of products and services that omit certain features.? In
the calibration industry, one of those features is traceability
records. This is commonplace in the industry today, and is nothing
new.

IF they are a legit Cal Lab all of their equipment is calibrated,
some internally some externally and records are maintained. ?Theyuse the same equipment to “cal” your equipment wether they write a
cert. or not.

? Of course.? And most companies charge you extra to provide the
serial numbers, calibration dates, and uncertainties of the
equipment used to perform the calibration with your
freshly-calibrated instrument.

If they don’t supply a cert. as part of the job find a new lab that does.

? Well, pretty much all of them do it this way.? This is not new.

Running a cal facility REQUIRES that you do certain things of you
don’t you are not a cal lab

? Yes, but providing traceability records is not one of those
things. It should be, but it isn't.

? Another thing that happened in that world in the past not huge
number of years is that "calibration" no longer means "calibration",
it means "measurement".? Back in the good old days, when you got
something calibrated, it got ADJUSTED if it needed it.? They don't
do that anymore by default, unless you pay a whole lot more.

? I've gotten quite a bit of very good test equipment from a local
biggish company because it "failed calibration".? When digging
around a bit with friends who work there, I found out that the
"calibration" service that they use, which is Tektronix, doesn't
adjust anything. They merely measure it, and if it's out of spec, it
has "failed calibration" and is returned with a red tag stating
such.? This dumbass company has taken that to mean "it's broken and
must therefore be thrown out", to the delight of the companies from
whom they purchase test equipment.

? This is, as it should not be surprising to hear, an engineering
company that has a lot more managers on staff than engineers.? I
laugh at them regularly for BS like this.? Stupid suits.? A lot of
really dumb things are done in this industry, and nearly all of them
can be traced back to suits trying to wring money out of clueless
management people. The story above is a prime example, but
calibration labs not providing traceability documentation if you
don't actually need it really isn't.

? You see, a hobbyist or ham radio operator can send his Fluke 87 or
whatever in for calibration, and get it back with confidence that
his/her measurements are good.? But would that person pay an extra
couple hundred bucks for the stack of pages containing the
calibration traceability information?? No, because that information
is of no value to that person.? The calibration company doesn't save
any money by omitting it, but it does allow them to offer a cheaper
service to people who don't need that documentation, while avoiding
reducing their prices down too much on the services that their bread
& butter customers require.

??????????? -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

I don't know how familiar you are with the 8640B. Is the
RF output switch set to on?? In on the front panel right
above the main output on the generator. Look there first.
If you're not familiar with the gear, it's easily missed.
On 27 Feb 2021 at 22:00, Dave McGuire wrote:

On 2/27/21 9:51 PM, Eliud Caraballo wrote:

I have this 8640b that got used, it shows voltage on the meter but

does

not have RF out. the frequency display works and tracks but the

output

does not trigger my 5328a counter.

Were should I start first to troubleshoot ? im perplexed that can

see

voltage with no output.

If I remember the 8640B's topology correctly, the detector that
drives the level meter circuit is after the RF amplifier, but
before
the attenuator. The attenuator could have a problem (either fried
by
reverse power input, or contact problems), or the cable from the
attenuator to the output bulkhead connector could have failed.

Do you have some way of measuring approximate RF power, like an
RF
power meter, or a coaxial crystal detector?

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Kim Herron W8ZV
kim.herron@...
1-616-677-3706

On 2/27/21 11:44 PM, Stephen Hanselman wrote:

They can provide tracibility for absolutely no extra charge. ?All they need to do is list the equipment used and the recall date.

Of course they can. But often, companies produce reduced-cost
versions of products and services that omit certain features. In
the calibration industry, one of those features is traceability
records. This is commonplace in the industry today, and is nothing
new.

IF they are a legit Cal Lab all of their equipment is calibrated,
some internally some externally and records are maintained. ?They use the same equipment to “cal” your equipment wether they write a
cert. or not.

Of course. And most companies charge you extra to provide the
serial numbers, calibration dates, and uncertainties of the
equipment used to perform the calibration with your
freshly-calibrated instrument.

If they don’t supply a cert. as part of the job find a new lab that does.

Well, pretty much all of them do it this way. This is not new.

Running a cal facility REQUIRES that you do certain things of you
don’t you are not a cal lab

Yes, but providing traceability records is not one of those
things. It should be, but it isn't.

Another thing that happened in that world in the past not huge
number of years is that "calibration" no longer means "calibration",
it means "measurement". Back in the good old days, when you got
something calibrated, it got ADJUSTED if it needed it. They don't
do that anymore by default, unless you pay a whole lot more.

I've gotten quite a bit of very good test equipment from a local
biggish company because it "failed calibration". When digging
around a bit with friends who work there, I found out that the
"calibration" service that they use, which is Tektronix, doesn't
adjust anything. They merely measure it, and if it's out of spec, it
has "failed calibration" and is returned with a red tag stating
such. This dumbass company has taken that to mean "it's broken and
must therefore be thrown out", to the delight of the companies from
whom they purchase test equipment.

This is, as it should not be surprising to hear, an engineering
company that has a lot more managers on staff than engineers. I
laugh at them regularly for BS like this. Stupid suits. A lot of
really dumb things are done in this industry, and nearly all of them
can be traced back to suits trying to wring money out of clueless
management people. The story above is a prime example, but
calibration labs not providing traceability documentation if you
don't actually need it really isn't.

You see, a hobbyist or ham radio operator can send his Fluke 87 or
whatever in for calibration, and get it back with confidence that
his/her measurements are good. But would that person pay an extra
couple hundred bucks for the stack of pages containing the
calibration traceability information? No, because that information
is of no value to that person. The calibration company doesn't save
any money by omitting it, but it does allow them to offer a cheaper
service to people who don't need that documentation, while avoiding
reducing their prices down too much on the services that their bread
& butter customers require.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

On Feb 28, 2021, at 5:55 AM, Eliud <carabe01@...> wrote:

?your average ham radio wattmeter, an sw2000?

Hi all,

I have this 8640b that got used, it shows voltage on the meter but does not have RF out. the frequency display works and tracks but the output does not trigger my 5328a counter.?

Were should I start first to troubleshoot ? im perplexed that can see voltage with no output.

On Feb 27, 2021, at 18:34, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:

?
?Most places will give you traceability but charge extra for it. That's not as crappy as it sounds, if you think about it...If you don't need traceability for legal or contractual reasons, but just want to take good measurements, you can get what you want a bit cheaper. ?Lots and lots of companies do it that way, including Keysight, as you observed.

??????????????-Dave

On 2/27/21 3:39 PM, Steve - Home wrote:

True, but you’d think if they have traceability they’d mention it on the certificate. Unless they do a tiered pricing like HPAK. One price for a “bare bones” cal, slighter higher for cal with more data, much higher for cal with overall uncertainties, etc.

Steve

On Feb 27, 2021, at 2:30 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:

?

?Not hard to ask for that..

???????????-Dave

On February 27, 2021 3:22:34 PM "Steve - Home" <steve-krull@...> wrote:

No evidence their calibration is traceable to any national standards...

Steve

On Feb 27, 2021, at 12:37 PM, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:

?Parkertest is a seller on ebay, I also posted a link to their D&B stats - seem to be a real business.

I'm attaching a picture of the certificate they supply with a calibration.

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting Roy Thistle <roy.thistle@...>:

On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 12:49 PM, Bruce wrote:

Parkertest will rebuild the sensor and provide a certificate of

calibration equal to new.

What is a "Parkertest?" ... there are several interpretations of that based on Google.

Does "Parkertest" refer to an Ebay entity?

I'm not saying "Parkertest" ... as referenced in Bruce's post... can't/won't/doesn't provide a "... certificate of calibration equal to new." But, how do we know "Parkertest" does?

<Pwr sensor report.jpg>

--

Dave McGuire, AK4HZ

New Kensington, PA

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

True, but you’d think if they have traceability they’d mention it on the certificate. Unless they do a tiered pricing like HPAK. One price for a “bare bones” cal, slighter higher for cal with more data, much higher for cal with overall uncertainties, etc.
Steve

On Feb 27, 2021, at 2:30 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:

?
Not hard to ask for that..

-Dave

On February 27, 2021 3:22:34 PM "Steve - Home" <steve-krull@...> wrote:
No evidence their calibration is traceable to any national standards...

Steve

On Feb 27, 2021, at 12:37 PM, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:

?Parkertest is a seller on ebay, I also posted a link to their D&B stats - seem to be a real business.

I'm attaching a picture of the certificate they supply with a calibration.

Cheers!

Bruce


Quoting Roy Thistle <roy.thistle@...>:

On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 12:49 PM, Bruce wrote:


Parkertest will rebuild the sensor and provide a certificate of
calibration equal to new.

What is a "Parkertest?" ... there are several interpretations of that based on Google.
Does "Parkertest" refer to an Ebay entity?
I'm not saying "Parkertest" ... as referenced in Bruce's post... can't/won't/doesn't provide a "... certificate of calibration equal to new." But, how do we know "Parkertest" does?

<Pwr sensor report.jpg>

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA