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Re: Boonton 92BD Troubleshooting

 

Besides having owned several Boonton instruments, the name "Boonton" has special meaning to me because that is where I was born.

DaveD
KC0WJN

Thanks for all the fish.
==============================
All spelling mistakes are the responsibilty of the reader (Rick Renz, STK, ca. 1994)
==============================

On Oct 5, 2024, at 07:11, Chuck Harris via groups.io <cfharris@...> wrote:

?As the owner of the Boonton list, I concur that the list
is more about the Boonton name than about which of the many
companies made the equipment.

The list was left in a frozen state when my partner in its
creation, John Forster died. I finally got his estate lawyers
to release its control back to me, so it is operational.

I fear that it spent too much time frozen to ever recover, but
it is worth a try.

-Chuck Harris




On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 15:57:43 -0700 "Richard Knoppow"
<dickburk@...> wrote:
FWIW, I was one of those who promoted the Boonton list. There
were two Boonton companies: Boonton Radio, who made the Q-Meter,
RX-Meter and a series of signal generators, and Boonton Electronics
who made RF millivoltmeters and other intruments. There may even have
been another Boonton company.
Hewlett-Packard bought Boonton Radio Co, and continued to make
Q-Meters and other Boonton instruments. I don't know what happened to
Boonton Electronics. Originally, the Boonton list was aimed at those
who had the instruments made by Hewlett-Packard but because of the
confusion of the names and difficulty of finding authentic
information on some of the devices, the list became a sort of general
catch all for anything with boonton in the name.
From what I see here the Boonton List is almost moribund, so I
think we should not object to questions being posted here although
they probably should also go to the Boonton list. Both companies made
some unique instruments and had reputations for high quality.
There are many Boonton Radio handbooks and other literature at
the -hp- archive site but perhaps not for Boonton Electronics.
However, its worth a look.
Boonton N.J. was a sort of center of electronics in the 1940s
and on including the famous Aircraft Radio Co (ARC). The smaller
companies, like Boonton Electronics, seem almost forgotten now. Sad.

On 10/4/2024 2:47 PM, Dave Daniel wrote:
There is a Boonton group.

DaveD
KC0WJN
Re: Boonton 92BD Troubleshooting

 

As the owner of the Boonton list, I concur that the list
is more about the Boonton name than about which of the many
companies made the equipment.

The list was left in a frozen state when my partner in its
creation, John Forster died. I finally got his estate lawyers
to release its control back to me, so it is operational.

I fear that it spent too much time frozen to ever recover, but
it is worth a try.

-Chuck Harris




On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 15:57:43 -0700 "Richard Knoppow"
<dickburk@...> wrote:
FWIW, I was one of those who promoted the Boonton list. There
were two Boonton companies: Boonton Radio, who made the Q-Meter,
RX-Meter and a series of signal generators, and Boonton Electronics
who made RF millivoltmeters and other intruments. There may even have
been another Boonton company.
Hewlett-Packard bought Boonton Radio Co, and continued to make
Q-Meters and other Boonton instruments. I don't know what happened to
Boonton Electronics. Originally, the Boonton list was aimed at those
who had the instruments made by Hewlett-Packard but because of the
confusion of the names and difficulty of finding authentic
information on some of the devices, the list became a sort of general
catch all for anything with boonton in the name.
From what I see here the Boonton List is almost moribund, so I
think we should not object to questions being posted here although
they probably should also go to the Boonton list. Both companies made
some unique instruments and had reputations for high quality.
There are many Boonton Radio handbooks and other literature at
the -hp- archive site but perhaps not for Boonton Electronics.
However, its worth a look.
Boonton N.J. was a sort of center of electronics in the 1940s
and on including the famous Aircraft Radio Co (ARC). The smaller
companies, like Boonton Electronics, seem almost forgotten now. Sad.

On 10/4/2024 2:47 PM, Dave Daniel wrote:
There is a Boonton group.

DaveD
KC0WJN
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

A lifetime ago, I took a course called: "Micro, Semimicro Qualitative
Analysis." We routinely took 10ml of some unknown, and applying
various reagents, isolated what was in it. Finding out which
acid salt should be relatively easy for someone with a modestly
equipped chemistry lab, and a little knowledge.

From my experience with e-scrapping, I learned a few things about
HP inkjet printers. The first is, given time, they will leak out
a cartridge's worth of ink all over the surface below the printer.
I have a permanent reminder of that on one of my granite counter
tops.

You might want to re-think your desire to monkey around with
refilling cartridges for printers that already do a poor job of
containing their allotment of ink.

The second is, the leaked ink seems to be corrosive. Abused
printers (kept in all sorts of orientations, thrown into scrap
pile...) will invariably leak ink... everywhere. The ink tends
to leave copper covered with green corrosion.

The third is, new cartridges are easily found. The prices were
never reasonable, and that fact remains.

-Chuck Harris

On Fri, 04 Oct 2024 17:16:46 -0700 "Frank Mashockie"
<fmashockie@...> wrote:
It could be that Food Black 2 is used but what they have made
confidential is the salt that they use to neutralize the dye.? In
this case Food black 2 has 4 sulfonic acid groups that need to be
neutralized to stabilize it.? Sometimes this is done with Sodium.? It
could be they are using something else that they don't wish to
disclose.? This does have implications for the GC-MS analysis and
sample preparation.? It can make analysis more difficult requiring
some kind of acidic work up to remove the salt.
Re: Boonton 92BD Troubleshooting

 

Not the BD version, but these meters have an analog output for data logging or SATE systems. Rather than assume the digital section is OK, feed a test signal into the probe and see if the analog level changes. Always split a problem in half, rather than randomly change parts.
Use a well calibrated 50 ohm signal generator..

That 'digital' board also cottains the A/D converter.

The chopper circuit hasa high failure rate. It can be upgraded to a modern, digital version lke the 9200 series. It is in the 9200 manuals.
The 42 series power meters use the same circitry, but are calibrated for a fixed 50 ohm input.

The same goes for the 4200/9200 series.
Re: Boonton 92BD Troubleshooting

 

Boonton Electronics (not related to HP) that made this meter are still going, as part of the Wireless Telecom Group, Inc.
There were at least 6 companies from the Boonton in New Jersey, Boonton Radio Corp (became part of HP), Boonton Electronics, Measurements Corp, Ferris, Ballantine, RFL, even the HP archive website has a page about some and manuals; http://hparchive.com/boonton-nj
?
David
?
On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 10:57 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:

FWIW, I was one of those who promoted the Boonton list. There were
two Boonton companies: Boonton Radio, who made the Q-Meter, RX-Meter and
a series of signal generators, and Boonton Electronics who made RF
millivoltmeters and other intruments. There may even have been another
Boonton company.
Hewlett-Packard bought Boonton Radio Co, and continued to make
Q-Meters and other Boonton instruments. I don't know what happened to
Boonton Electronics. Originally, the Boonton list was aimed at those who
had the instruments made by Hewlett-Packard but because of the confusion
of the names and difficulty of finding authentic information on some of
the devices, the list became a sort of general catch all for anything
with boonton in the name.
From what I see here the Boonton List is almost moribund, so I
think we should not object to questions being posted here although they
probably should also go to the Boonton list. Both companies made some
unique instruments and had reputations for high quality.
There are many Boonton Radio handbooks and other literature at the
-hp- archive site but perhaps not for Boonton Electronics. However, its
worth a look.
Boonton N.J. was a sort of center of electronics in the 1940s and
on including the famous Aircraft Radio Co (ARC). The smaller companies,
like Boonton Electronics, seem almost forgotten now. Sad.

On 10/4/2024 2:47 PM, Dave Daniel wrote:
There is a Boonton group.

DaveD
KC0WJN

--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
SKCC 19998
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

Interesting... Wonder why they didn't put a CAS # by it then.? I guess because they labeled it non-hazardous? 1,6-hexadiol?seems more likely.? Pyrrolidines can be pretty nasty.

When they say acid salt #3 they?are referring to how the dye is neutralized.? So for example, it is very common that dyes like this are neutralized with tetrasodium.? It could be that or something else.

If you have a DOI # for that article, I might be able to find it for you.

-Frank





On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at 12:22?AM gren via <hrgerson=[email protected]> wrote:
?
?
These have been studied & published... years ago, and the field is evolving.
This evening's bedtime reading on ink jet inks? via GC-MS, TLC, high performance liquid chromatography, LC-MS, etc.
.... at some point the recipe may appear -- Might not have to do much homework testing,? if already in the literature.
?
A few references state that Hp used:
?
N-(2-Hydroxyethyl)-2-pyrrolidone? (HP)
&
1,6-hexanediol (HP)
?
in their Hp? Ink Jet? inks...
?
The Acid Salt 3 is the question....? ?
Possible preservatives to prevent oxidation & bacterial growth, etc.
?
Can't seem to get my hands on a .pdf? of what seems to be a good reference, age appropriate:
?
Aginsky, V. N. (1996). Dating and Characterizing Writing, Stamp Pad and Jet Printer Inks by Gas Chromatography / Mass ?Spectrometry.? International ?Journal of Forensic Document Examiners, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp.103-115
?
?
?
?
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

?
?
These have been studied & published... years ago, and the field is evolving.
This evening's bedtime reading on ink jet inks? via GC-MS, TLC, high performance liquid chromatography, LC-MS, etc.
.... at some point the recipe may appear -- Might not have to do much homework testing,? if already in the literature.
?
A few references state that Hp used:
?
N-(2-Hydroxyethyl)-2-pyrrolidone? (HP)
&
1,6-hexanediol (HP)
?
in their Hp? Ink Jet? inks...
?
The Acid Salt 3 is the question....? ?
Possible preservatives to prevent oxidation & bacterial growth, etc.
?
Can't seem to get my hands on a .pdf? of what seems to be a good reference, age appropriate:
?
Aginsky, V. N. (1996). Dating and Characterizing Writing, Stamp Pad and Jet Printer Inks by Gas Chromatography / Mass ?Spectrometry.? International ?Journal of Forensic Document Examiners, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp.103-115
?
?
?
?
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

Also, while the dye is Food Black 2, its salt form is not known.? HP isn't sharing that.? I'm not a printer ink maker, but different types of salts can have drastic implications on the characteristics of the organic they are complexed with.? I'm more familiar with this from a pharma standpoint - drugs with the same API can have very different efficacies based on their salt form.


On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 11:48?PM Frank Masciocchi <fmashockie@...> wrote:
Gotcha.? Very curious what that 'alkyldiol' is listed on the most recent MSDS I shared.? It doesn't have a CAS # and it says proprietary.? Could be a nonionic surfactant like Tween.??

Keep us posted on this project! I'd be interested/curious to know how far you get with the tools you have at home!

-Frank??

On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 10:50?PM gren via <hrgerson=[email protected]> wrote:
?
The dye is easy, Food Black 2 ,
Other questions are the possible use of a Tween, or other Surfactant? or/& something else, possibly Glycerol ?
?
For 1st tests, a test ink does not have to be perfect, just hoping it will work reasonably well, and be paper fast.
Just don't want to gum up the only empty ThinkJet cartridge that I have, ... would quickly put an end to testing in my 2225 printer, lol.
?
Thus, more examples of MSDS sheets ,
?? from the Hp ThinkJet Cartridge ? boxes? ( an inserted slip of paper ), would help,
if anyone can post additional .pdf's of these.
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

Gotcha.? Very curious what that 'alkyldiol' is listed on the most recent MSDS I shared.? It doesn't have a CAS # and it says proprietary.? Could be a nonionic surfactant like Tween.??

Keep us posted on this project! I'd be interested/curious to know how far you get with the tools you have at home!

-Frank??


On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 10:50?PM gren via <hrgerson=[email protected]> wrote:
?
The dye is easy, Food Black 2 ,
Other questions are the possible use of a Tween, or other Surfactant? or/& something else, possibly Glycerol ?
?
For 1st tests, a test ink does not have to be perfect, just hoping it will work reasonably well, and be paper fast.
Just don't want to gum up the only empty ThinkJet cartridge that I have, ... would quickly put an end to testing in my 2225 printer, lol.
?
Thus, more examples of MSDS sheets ,
?? from the Hp ThinkJet Cartridge ? boxes? ( an inserted slip of paper ), would help,
if anyone can post additional .pdf's of these.
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

?
The dye is easy, Food Black 2 ,
Other questions are the possible use of a Tween, or other Surfactant? or/& something else, possibly Glycerol ?
?
For 1st tests, a test ink does not have to be perfect, just hoping it will work reasonably well, and be paper fast.
Just don't want to gum up the only empty ThinkJet cartridge that I have, ... would quickly put an end to testing in my 2225 printer, lol.
?
Thus, more examples of MSDS sheets ,
?? from the Hp ThinkJet Cartridge ? boxes? ( an inserted slip of paper ), would help,
if anyone can post additional .pdf's of these.
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

A PerkinElmer Elan 6000 - that thing must weigh a ton!? Which Shimadzu unit do you have? Is this for a home lab!?? If so that it is awesome. I hope you're not using H2 for carrier gas lol.??

Sephadex G-25 for affinity chromatography I assume?? G-10 is for small molecule.? I guess it depends on what you're interested in.? Are you looking for more residual solvents? Or understanding more about the dye and/or additional additives?

GC would require a midpolar column.? Something like Agilent's VF-35ms.? Good for resolving aromatics with substituted?polar groups.? Still think it is unlikely you'd be able to find a method that would resolve all components of the dye on GC-MS considering the molar mass of the dye.



On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 9:15?PM gren via <hrgerson=[email protected]> wrote:
?
?
Don't think I need an outside lab, .... but would be interested in discuss with those actually having analytical equipment.
(? I still need a few minor parts for my pe Elan 6000,? so that is not ready yet,? lol.? And yes, I would need a different column for the Shimadzu, sigh. )
?
But, am betting that this ink issue can be solved more easily:
?
My next practical step, after having tried some TLC plates, will be to try one of the inexpensive Sephadex columns,
Will start with either G-10 or G-25, and then possibly proceed forward, with a more specific column.
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

?
Seem to recall from the Hp Patents, that Hp used the Food Black 2 dye made by Cabot, discussed previously:?
/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/message/147612
?
perhaps the "Clover" formulation is the same.
?
The Acid Salt 3 may not be such a mystery; probably simple,? as a 1st guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_salt
?
Anyway, need to check the pH, and do a titration of the Hp printer dye,? just for fun.
?
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

Clover is the supplier.? It lists the product name on a page I didn't share initially (attached below).? However, it is interesting they omitted the dye.
?
But Roy makes a good point about older datasheets possibly not including all compounds of interest.? Here is one from 2013.? This one includes 'alkyldiol' which they have listed as proprietary.??
?
This one also has Food Black 2 listed.? Acid salt #3 indicates the dye is neutralized as a salt.? But which salt they aren't disclosing. Link is below.
?
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://images10.newegg.com/UploadFilesForNewegg/itemintelligence/HP/sp_51604arevb_ca_eng_v091400297325342.pdf
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

?
hmm,? not certain what the? 2015? "Clover"? Ink? data?? is from,?? or for... ?
?
For now, ... would be focusing only on the plain Black inks used? only? for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer,
? ( So, only Hp Ink Cartridges?? model#'s: Hp 9226a ? &?? Hp? 51604a ,? designed for the ThinkJet 2225 itself );
?
--? because the physics and thermal hydrodynamics of the Hp 2225 ThinkJet printer, as eloquently described in the Hp Journal article,
are tailored to these particular Inks and their cartridge, temperature,? & to a lesser extent, expulsion volume, and velocity. ?
?
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

?
hi Roy,
Perfect, thank you for the MSDS !
?That adds a bit more info and reading the Patents has also illuminated.
?
Yes, likely other versions of the MSDS or Materials Safety sheet inserted in the Ink Jet box might have other, additional info,
they get updated as the various laws change, so Engineering Production Due Diligence? practices would follow.
?
rick
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

?
?
Don't think I need an outside lab, .... but would be interested in discuss with those actually having analytical equipment.
(? I still need a few minor parts for my pe Elan 6000,? so that is not ready yet,? lol.? And yes, I would need a different column for the Shimadzu, sigh. )
?
But, am betting that this ink issue can be solved more easily:
?
My next practical step, after having tried some TLC plates, will be to try one of the inexpensive Sephadex columns,
Will start with either G-10 or G-25, and then possibly proceed forward, with a more specific column.
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

It could be that Food Black 2 is used but what they have made confidential is the salt that they use to neutralize the dye.? In this case Food black 2 has 4 sulfonic acid groups that need to be neutralized to stabilize it.? Sometimes this is done with Sodium.? It could be they are using something else that they don't wish to disclose.? This does have implications for the GC-MS analysis and sample preparation.? It can make analysis more difficult requiring some kind of acidic work up to remove the salt.
Re: Boonton 92BD Troubleshooting

 

Brought a 260 q meter back to life earlier this year.? Had some idea of what happened with them and hp, but not that detailed.? Thanks for that!? :)


On Fri, Oct 4, 2024, 6:57?PM Richard Knoppow via <dickburk=[email protected]> wrote:
? ? FWIW, I was one of those who promoted the Boonton list. There were
two Boonton companies: Boonton Radio, who made the Q-Meter, RX-Meter and
a series of signal generators,? and Boonton Electronics who made RF
millivoltmeters and other intruments. There may even have been another
Boonton company.
? ? Hewlett-Packard bought Boonton Radio Co, and continued to make
Q-Meters and other Boonton instruments. I don't know what happened to
Boonton Electronics. Originally, the Boonton list was aimed at those who
had the instruments made by Hewlett-Packard but because of the confusion
of the names and difficulty of finding authentic information on some of
the devices, the list became a sort of general catch all for anything
with boonton in the name.
? ? ?From what I see here the Boonton List is almost moribund, so I
think we should not object to questions being posted here although they
probably should also go to the Boonton list. Both companies made some
unique instruments and had reputations for high quality.
? ? There are many Boonton Radio handbooks and other literature at the
-hp- archive site but perhaps not for Boonton Electronics. However, its
worth a look.
? ? ?Boonton N.J. was a sort of center of electronics in the 1940s and
on including the famous Aircraft Radio Co (ARC). The smaller companies,
like Boonton Electronics, seem almost forgotten now. Sad.

On 10/4/2024 2:47 PM, Dave Daniel wrote:
> There is a Boonton group.
>
> DaveD
> KC0WJN
>


--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
SKCC 19998
Re: Boonton 92BD Troubleshooting

 

FWIW, I was one of those who promoted the Boonton list. There were two Boonton companies: Boonton Radio, who made the Q-Meter, RX-Meter and a series of signal generators, and Boonton Electronics who made RF millivoltmeters and other intruments. There may even have been another Boonton company.
Hewlett-Packard bought Boonton Radio Co, and continued to make Q-Meters and other Boonton instruments. I don't know what happened to Boonton Electronics. Originally, the Boonton list was aimed at those who had the instruments made by Hewlett-Packard but because of the confusion of the names and difficulty of finding authentic information on some of the devices, the list became a sort of general catch all for anything with boonton in the name.
From what I see here the Boonton List is almost moribund, so I think we should not object to questions being posted here although they probably should also go to the Boonton list. Both companies made some unique instruments and had reputations for high quality.
There are many Boonton Radio handbooks and other literature at the -hp- archive site but perhaps not for Boonton Electronics. However, its worth a look.
Boonton N.J. was a sort of center of electronics in the 1940s and on including the famous Aircraft Radio Co (ARC). The smaller companies, like Boonton Electronics, seem almost forgotten now. Sad.

On 10/4/2024 2:47 PM, Dave Daniel wrote:
There is a Boonton group.
DaveD
KC0WJN
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
SKCC 19998
Re: Anyone able to do GC or GC-MS on Hp ThinkJet Black ink ( for the Hp ThinkJet 2225 printer; Hp 9226a Or Hp 51604a ink cartridges ) ?

 

Well, RIT dye contains salt, and what dyes doesn't
FDA think are food dyes? They allow Red #40, and
yellow #5...

It is said that if you hear the sound of hoof beats
on the commons, it is more likely to be horses than
zebras.

I think it is quite likely that HP would have used
a cheap, easy to get dye like used by RIT in their
printer. By doing so, they get to piggy back on all
the years RIT sold their safe product to consumers.

The salt in RIT dye serves to improve its permanent
nature.

-Chuck Harris


On Fri, 04 Oct 2024 12:36:09 -0700 "Roy Thistle"
<roy.thistle@...> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 10:17 AM, gren wrote:


Possibly the MSDS
HP MSDS data for 2002, for 51604A Black

Component/Substance CAS Number ?EU Number % by Weight
Ethylene glycol ? 107-21-1 203-473-3 <35%
Triethylene glycol 112-27-6 203-953-2 <15%
Food Black 2 acid salt confidential confidential <6%
Water 7732-18-5 231-791-2 > 50%
note that the secret sauce is the Food Black 2 @ acid salt combo.
They are not fessing up to what the 'acid salt is' or how much of it
is used.

2002 is relatively recent; but, older MSDS might even be less
informative... as they are only required in them... new or old... to
mostly list 'hazardous' materials... and one man's hazard is another
man's fun, on YouTube.
3981 - 4000 of 151220