Re: HP8510C VNA, read LIF DD floppy, initialize HD floppy? Using FlashFloppy or other emulator
Not sure what you mean??
I¡¯m looking for parameters of the LIF floppies used in the HP8510.?
The real 3.5¡± disks are nice, but I have too many with read errors so having it all on a USB stick is really great.?
¡but I need to be able to initialize images and read DD disks.?
Regards
?Staffan
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Re: HP8566B - Making sense of the figures
On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 04:16 PM, Jinxie wrote:
Okay, final test results for tonight:
?
U5 pin 6 = -300mV with negative to Tune; +273mV with positive to Tune.
?
U9 pin 6 = +6.6V with negative to Tune; -6.6V with positive to Tune.
?
HTH. I have plenty of time for any further testing tomorrow although I appreciate it's unlikely anyone else on this group has!
?
=====
These results say PD is working as expected now! ?U9 pin 6 is few steps away from A11J1, I can' think of why PD output would be any different than U9 output. Since U9 pin 6 behaves as expected, A11J1 should too.?
?
You could try the same +4.5V/-4.5V experiment and observe A11J1 moving to +6.6V to -6.6V to confirm but connecting gray cable back to A11J1 and removing battery/shorting should get you a working 8566B.?
?
Ozan
?
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I have a fully working (AFAIK) 8595E,
if you need anything I can read from the screen or via IEEE-488.
Swamped with work for the next few weeks, so any disassembly is
out of the question.
Steve Hendrix
On 2024-08-25 3:50 PM, Yves Tardif
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Adri,
?
I have owned a 8595E for a few years, but it
recently broke down and I had to repair it, what is your
problem exactly?
I can see that the RF part is disassembled, but
please give more details.
?
Yves
?
I
am a hobbyist from Milan - Italy and I am trying to bring
my 8595E back to its former glory
I have been following the HP-Agilent group for years and I
have appreciated your frequent and intelligent
contributions among which the expertise regarding the HP
analyzer series stands out
I was wondering if I can ask you for some advice that can
help me get my analyzer back on track
thanks in advance
adri
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Re: Might anyone have a script to read S-parameters in binary format from a HP8510C?
Appending zeros is not making assumptions about out-of-band data, it's a stupid trick to obtain more than N equally spaced points of the DTFT. Or the Zoom DFT, if you prefer. Or the unit circle of the Z transform, if you prefer. Or the CZT. These are all different terms for the same thing, at least in this context where we don't move off the unit circle. To prove it, write out the sum for the DFT, notice that addition of 0 is very literally the same thing as doing nothing, change the bounds on the sum in accordance with this mathematical fact, compare the formula to one of the other transforms, realize it's the same, achieve enlightenment. The Fourier Cinematic Universe has tons of redundant and mostly-redundant terminology, this is one example of hundreds.
?
You will not get more time resolution without more GHz on your VNA. You just won't. It's easy to evaluate "between" time bins -- this is what padding and czt are doing -- but you are really just looking at the Fourier Conjugate of your frequency-domain window function convolved onto the original discrete samples of the DFT.
?
If this is not obvious to you after a quick reminder, you may be underinvested in understanding Fourier Transform techniques in general. Trust me, it's worth the time to understand the idea of going from FT (continuous->continuous) to DFT (discrete->discrete) by way of sampling. Multiplying by a narrowly-spaced delta comb (ideal sampling) in one domain is the same as convolving by a widely-spaced delta comb (aliasing) in the other. Convolving a narrowly-spaced delta comb by a one-sample-width box (non-ideal sampling) is the same as multiplying by a wide sinc function in the other domain (windowing). Sample rate <> aliasing, sample aperture <> windowing. Your VNA imposes a rectangular frequency domain window due to its finite frequency range. This transforms into a finite width sample aperture that determines the best time-domain resolution it can accomplish. Using any Fourier-related technique to peer "between" time domain samples is really just looking at the aperture function, which will by default be the fourier conjugate of a rectangle, which will be a sinc with lots of ringing. Don't mistake the ringing for additional data. It's the mathematical consequence of the choice of a rectangular window function, nothing more.
?
Again, if this rustled up memories of DSP class, great. If not, I'm sorry, I can't fit a DSP class in an email, and I am a poor teacher besides. If you want recommendations for DSP books, I used Orfanidis, but I predate a bunch of material (3Blue1Brown videos) that looks quite good, so the furthest I can give trustworthy advice is: this is worth your time to understand. This will not be the last time you run into it. Not by a long shot. "Trust me bro" may or may not work here, but it definitely won't work the next time you run into this, or the time after, or the time after.
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Re: HP8566B - Making sense of the figures
Okay, final test results for tonight:
?
U5 pin 6 = -300mV with negative to Tune; +273mV with positive to Tune.
?
U9 pin 6 = +6.6V with negative to Tune; -6.6V with positive to Tune.
?
HTH. I have plenty of time for any further testing tomorrow although I appreciate it's unlikely anyone else on this group has!
|
Re: HP8566B - Making sense of the figures
Thanks for that very timely clarification, Ozan!? It was becoming a little confusing, but no longer! As I said, if you later think of anything else worth looking at, by all means leave a comment.
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Re: HP8510C VNA, read LIF DD floppy, initialize HD floppy? Using FlashFloppy or other emulator
There¡¯s nothing wrong with taking a blank formatted disk and imagine that if you need something to write to.
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Re: HP8566B - Making sense of the figures
On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 12:02 PM, Jinxie wrote:
Hopefully I can squeeze in those additional tests in tonight. Tomorrow looks a lot more favorable for me as it's a public holiday in the UK and I can spend several more hours on this if need be. So if there's anything else that comes to mind later I should try, please feel free to leave a comment to that effect and I'll perform the relevant tests tomorrow and report back then.
Thanks again!
?
===
Hi Jinxie,
There were few messages mixed to each other so in summary your new transistor works well, voltages at Q4B collector are exactly as expected. When it is above 10V it should produce +6V at detector output, when it is below 10V it should produce -6V at the output. Since Q4B collector voltage is below 10V with +4.5V applied but final output is still +6V the issue is between collector of Q4B and final output. Looking at both opamp outputs with +4.5V and -4.5V will tell the next steps. You are going in the right direction to fix this issue.
?
Ozan
?
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Re: HP8510C VNA, read LIF DD floppy, initialize HD floppy? Using FlashFloppy or other emulator
True. My hope is that someone already figured out the parameters for DD floppies (600k). I have really tried to set the parameters to mimic what I see when doing a raw read from the real floppy, but something is off.?
Similar for the HD when trying to format (init). I set parameters so that I see the same data stream from the emulator as when reading the physical floppy (initialized by the 8510), but still some error.?
Seems like there is something that I miss when inspecting the raw stream, but unclear what.?
Regards,
?Staffan
|
Hi Adri, ? I have owned a 8595E for a few years, but it recently broke down and I had to repair it, what is your problem exactly? I can see that the RF part is disassembled, but please give more details. ? Yves ? I am a hobbyist from Milan - Italy and I am trying to bring my 8595E back to its former glory
I have been following the HP-Agilent group for years and I have appreciated your frequent and intelligent contributions among which the expertise regarding the HP analyzer series stands out
I was wondering if I can ask you for some advice that can help me get my analyzer back on track
thanks in advance
adri
|
Re: HP8510C VNA, read LIF DD floppy, initialize HD floppy? Using FlashFloppy or other emulator
The format used by the instrument isn¡¯t necessarily the same as a PC would write, even for the same filesystem. In particular, things like interleave may be different.
And then there are details like LIF format having spare tracks or not, number of sectors, sector size to further complicate things.
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Re: HP8566B - Making sense of the figures
Hopefully I can squeeze in those additional tests in tonight. Tomorrow looks a lot more favorable for me as it's a public holiday in the UK and I can spend several more hours on this if need be. So if there's anything else that comes to mind later I should try, please feel free to leave a comment to that effect and I'll perform the relevant tests tomorrow and report back then.
Thanks again!
|
Re: HP8566B - Making sense of the figures
"Right side of R15 at 5mV says opamp U5 is doing its job. "
Or it burned out.? It has back to back diodes on the input and the latest datasheet for a 5534A says:?"Excessive current will flow if a differential input voltage in excess of approximately 0.6 V is applied between the inputs, unless some limiting resistance is used."
I've had a 5543A die in the past and fail?to pull its?output in one direction.? It was in a signal generator modulation chain - the resulting modulation was weirdly clipped.
So, I agree - check the U5 output in both cases.? I'd also check both CR2 and CR3 if possible since?they?limit the?integrator output.
Orin.
On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 08:39 AM, Jinxie wrote:
Ozan, I've given some thought to your first observation about the emitter and collector being switched. I think I might have forgotten to allow for the fact that I switched leads over in Q4B. It's so easy to make mistakes with the chaos that's currently surrounding my work bench. So just ignore those earlier figures; I've now re-measured to correct for this (see below).
?
Other points arising:
The minus 5V supply is fine (5.13V; very little ripple)
Right side of R16 is 5mV.
I've not yet adjusted the regulated voltages to the precise values due to the caveat in the first paragraph above.
I've now re-measured the voltages of Q4 A&B with the Tune voltage positive and negatively biased.
?
Here are the voltages with +4.5V applied to Tune:
?
Q4A:
E:??? -1.92
B:??? -1.46
C:??? +19.66
?
Q4B:
E:???? -1.5
B:??? -0.857
C:??? +7.42
?
Here are the voltages with -4.5V applied to Tune:
?
Q4A:
E:??? -1.52
B:??? -0.85
C:??? +19.66
?
Q4B:
E:??? -1.92
B:??? -1.38
C:??? +12.96
?
Hopefully I've covered everything and that makes more sense now.
?
====
Right side of R15 at 5mV says opamp U5 is doing its job.?
?
Q4B collector moves in the right direction but swing looks too high to me, it could be my calculation mistake. I will think more about it. When +4.5V is applied collector is at 7.42V, this means R16 pulls virtual ground of U5 to 7.42V and R22 pulls it to -10V. This should overall pull virtual ground of U5 below ground, and push its output to +0.3V (pin 6, left side of R24). Do you see +0.3V ?at U5 output when +4.5V is applied to YTO tune input?
?
With U5 output above ground, even few hundred millivolts, U9 output should rail to -6V. However, you are still seeing +6V so something in that chain won't match to these guesses. ?
?
If U5 output is not +0.3V, how does Q4B collector look on the oscilloscope with +4.5V applied to YTO tune?
Ozan
?
|
HP8510C VNA, read LIF DD floppy, initialize HD floppy? Using FlashFloppy or other emulator
Hello,
?
I'm trying to read the floppy 08510-10034 "8510 Calibration Data". The floppy is formatted as a double density (not high density) and I have dumped its contents onto a USB stick and try to have my 8510C read it using the FlashFloppy emulator.
The VNA complains that the format is wrong and doesn't read.?
Letting the VNA read the floppy with a physical drive works well.
?
Reading and writing high density floppies (images on a USB stick) seems to work, but initializing a floppy in the emulator is a different story.
?
Anyone has any experience with these issues using FlashFloppy or any other emulator??
?
Regards,
?Staffan
|
Re: HP8566B - Making sense of the figures
On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 10:23 AM, Ozan wrote:
On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 08:39 AM, Jinxie wrote:
Ozan, I've given some thought to your first observation about the emitter and collector being switched. I think I might have forgotten to allow for the fact that I switched leads over in Q4B. It's so easy to make mistakes with the chaos that's currently surrounding my work bench. So just ignore those earlier figures; I've now re-measured to correct for this (see below).
?
Other points arising:
The minus 5V supply is fine (5.13V; very little ripple)
Right side of R16 is 5mV.
I've not yet adjusted the regulated voltages to the precise values due to the caveat in the first paragraph above.
I've now re-measured the voltages of Q4 A&B with the Tune voltage positive and negatively biased.
?
Here are the voltages with +4.5V applied to Tune:
?
Q4A:
E:??? -1.92
B:??? -1.46
C:??? +19.66
?
Q4B:
E:???? -1.5
B:??? -0.857
C:??? +7.42
?
Here are the voltages with -4.5V applied to Tune:
?
Q4A:
E:??? -1.52
B:??? -0.85
C:??? +19.66
?
Q4B:
E:??? -1.92
B:??? -1.38
C:??? +12.96
?
Hopefully I've covered everything and that makes more sense now.
?
====
Right side of R15 at 5mV says opamp U5 is doing its job.?
?
Q4B collector moves in the right direction but swing looks too high to me, it could be my calculation mistake. I will think more about it. When +4.5V is applied collector is at 7.42V, this means R16 pulls virtual ground of U5 to 7.42V and R22 pulls it to -10V. This should overall pull virtual ground of U5 below ground, and push its output to +0.3V (pin 6, left side of R24). Do you see +0.3V ?at U5 output when +4.5V is applied to YTO tune input?
?
With U5 output above ground, even few hundred millivolts, U9 output should rail to -6V. However, you are still seeing +6V so something in that chain won't match to these guesses. ?
?
If U5 output is not +0.3V, how does Q4B collector look on the oscilloscope with +4.5V applied to YTO tune?
Ozan
?
====
Update: Voltages look good, I didn't take into account loop gain switch (block "I" in the schematic). Next steps are opamp outputs.?
Ozan
?
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Re: HP8566B - Making sense of the figures
I agree with you Gren; Can't wait for season 2!
Renaud
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Re: HP8566B - Making sense of the figures
On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 08:39 AM, Jinxie wrote:
Ozan, I've given some thought to your first observation about the emitter and collector being switched. I think I might have forgotten to allow for the fact that I switched leads over in Q4B. It's so easy to make mistakes with the chaos that's currently surrounding my work bench. So just ignore those earlier figures; I've now re-measured to correct for this (see below).
?
Other points arising:
The minus 5V supply is fine (5.13V; very little ripple)
Right side of R16 is 5mV.
I've not yet adjusted the regulated voltages to the precise values due to the caveat in the first paragraph above.
I've now re-measured the voltages of Q4 A&B with the Tune voltage positive and negatively biased.
?
Here are the voltages with +4.5V applied to Tune:
?
Q4A:
E:??? -1.92
B:??? -1.46
C:??? +19.66
?
Q4B:
E:???? -1.5
B:??? -0.857
C:??? +7.42
?
Here are the voltages with -4.5V applied to Tune:
?
Q4A:
E:??? -1.52
B:??? -0.85
C:??? +19.66
?
Q4B:
E:??? -1.92
B:??? -1.38
C:??? +12.96
?
Hopefully I've covered everything and that makes more sense now.
?
====
Right side of R15 at 5mV says opamp U5 is doing its job.?
?
Q4B collector moves in the right direction but swing looks too high to me, it could be my calculation mistake. I will think more about it. When +4.5V is applied collector is at 7.42V, this means R16 pulls virtual ground of U5 to 7.42V and R22 pulls it to -10V. This should overall pull virtual ground of U5 below ground, and push its output to +0.3V (pin 6, left side of R24). Do you see +0.3V ?at U5 output when +4.5V is applied to YTO tune input?
?
With U5 output above ground, even few hundred millivolts, U9 output should rail to -6V. However, you are still seeing +6V so something in that chain won't match to these guesses. ?
?
If U5 output is not +0.3V, how does Q4B collector look on the oscilloscope with +4.5V applied to YTO tune?
Ozan
?
|
Re: HP8566B - Making sense of the figures
On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 05:13 PM, gren wrote:
?? Watching this adventure unfold from the sidelines, all good !
Keep at it.
?
?
@gren
?
Watching this adventure unfold from the sidelines, all good !
Keep at it.
?
Some day this thread will be cited in technical colleges all over the world as an example of the sheer fortitude and persistence needed to troubleshoot and fix complex electronic systems. :-)
?
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Re: HP8566B - Making sense of the figures
?
OT:
?? Watching this adventure unfold from the sidelines, all good !
Keep at it.
?
Some additional Hp8566? YTO insight:
?
?
Simon also discovered and repaired additional 8566 / 8568 issues :
&
?
rick
?
?
?
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Re: HP8566B - Making sense of the figures
Ozan, I've given some thought to your first observation about the emitter and collector being switched. I think I might have forgotten to allow for the fact that I switched leads over in Q4B. It's so easy to make mistakes with the chaos that's currently surrounding my work bench. So just ignore those earlier figures; I've now re-measured to correct for this (see below).
?
Other points arising:
The minus 5V supply is fine (5.13V; very little ripple)
Right side of R16 is 5mV.
I've not yet adjusted the regulated voltages to the precise values due to the caveat in the first paragraph above.
I've now re-measured the voltages of Q4 A&B with the Tune voltage positive and negatively biased.
?
Here are the voltages with +4.5V applied to Tune:
?
Q4A:
E:??? -1.92
B:??? -1.46
C:??? +19.66
?
Q4B:
E:???? -1.5
B:??? -0.857
C:??? +7.42
?
Here are the voltages with -4.5V applied to Tune:
?
Q4A:
E:??? -1.52
B:??? -0.85
C:??? +19.66
?
Q4B:
E:??? -1.92
B:??? -1.38
C:??? +12.96
?
Hopefully I've covered everything and that makes more sense now.
?
|
Jinxie