I do have a paper manual , Part NO. 08640-90197
Applies directly to serial numbers prefixed 2031A, 2030A and 2025U
With the changes in Section VII also to serial numbers 1625U up to 2023A.
It has two schematics A10A2 Service sheet 11 RF dividers.
Print layout exactly as by the pics.
Jos PA0AMX
|
Re: 11048C feed through termination data?
Its seems to be anathema to some to credit inventors (jealousy, maybe?). Thank you for the spelling.
Dick Knadle, K2RIW, a quite famous ham, who some of you may remember, was steadfast in the attribution of the names of the various connectors, not I. I merely repeat the story he said. As the quote goes "I know not what the truth may be, I tell the tale 'twas told to me". J. Kruth
In a message dated 3/24/2024 11:20:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, robert8rpi@... writes:
?
BTW it's? Paul Neill and Carl Concelman who were desiners at Bell Labs. While credited with various connector designs I'm pretty sure the attribution of the N and BNC to their names is coincidental and happened long after the introduction of the connectors.
Older docunemts refer to N as Naval but it was almost cetainly just a alphabetic sequence. T/BNC is threaded or Bayonet N Compact in older references. This make more sense than acorporation naming a part after the designer(s) particuarly as when desigined there is no indication of how popular the part may become.
I know of at least one case of theis re-naming after the event. This is the standard for rack mounting avionics equipment. It's known as ATR racking. In the first edition of the specification, ARINC 404 ATR was defined a Air Transport Radio racking. At revision A it was re-defined as Austin Trumbull Radio racking in recognition of the main designer. PArt of ARINC 404A appendix 1 is below.
"GENERAL
The material in this appendix is presented in order to preserve important background regarding the viability of the ATR
concept pioneered by Austin F. Trumbull of United Air Lines (now retired). This importance is not so much related to the
personages involved as it is to the painful, deliberative process through which the present 404A rack concept has evolved
to its present day form.
BACKGROUND
Coincident with the hiring of an ARINC Staff Engineer in the year 1939, the ARINC Board of Directors officially
directed ARINC to accept the responsibility, for the airlines, to coordinate Industry design and development work. This
was the official beginning, within ARINC, of a continuing program identified loosely as the “Air Transport Radio”
development program. Thus, with this introduction of radio racking and equipment box size standards in early 1940, it
was natural that these racking standards were loosely referred to as “ATR” Standards. With the eventual publication of
ARINC Specification No. 404 embracing these original 1940 standards some sixteen years later (May 1, 1956) it was
natural that the acronym “ATR” would have been explained as meaning “Air Transport Radio” (see Section heading of
Section 1.0 and line 12 of Section 1.1 of ARINC Specification No. 404, Page 7, dated May 1, 1956).
founding of AEEC that this definition attributed to the acronym “ATR” was completely erroneous, irrelevant, and
incorrect, and can be attributed only to a typographical error (noting that ARINC employed the first full time
stenographer on May 14, 1939 and she had obviously not yet become familiar with these complicated terms!)
Accordingly a supplement to 404 was proposed to correct that typographical error. Excerpts from that supplement
follow:
To complete the historical record of the early developments of the ARINC “ATR Racking System” this
Supplement will, in addition of decreeing a change in the meaning of the acronym, also serve to add an
Appendix 2 - “Chronology of the ARINC Racking System,” to be recorded in Specification 404.
Change to ARINC Specification No. 404 to be Made by this Supplement No. 5 dated April 15, 1967
It is hereby decreed, retroactive to April 15, 1940, by action of the Airlines Electronic Engineering Committee
on April 12, 1967, that Section 1.0 and 1.1 of ARINC Specification No. 404 dated May 1,1956, will have been
modified by striking out the meaning of “ATR” given in the heading of section 1.0 and in the fourth sentence of
Section 1.1, replacing it by the correct term. Specifically, where the term “Air Transport Radio” is used, it shall
have been replaced by the words “Austin Trumbull Radio” heretofore and hereinafter, which by AEEC decision
will have been made to have been “traditional” since April 15, 1940."
Note ARINC 404 was the basis for MIL-C-172 Which does not mention ATR or Austin.
Robert G8RPI.
|
Re: 11048C feed through termination data?
Still works OK, in spite of .010 inch delta, but the point of my statement was the refute the "apparent" inferiority of the BNC. However, we can quibble, as all seem to feel the need. J. Kruth
In a message dated 3/24/2024 10:50:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, robert8rpi@... writes:
?
50R BNC / TNC and 50R N types have the same outer conductor inner diameter and center conductor outer diameter BUT the tapered and reduced pin diameter is larger on N types than BNC / TNC . Thus while you can push a N male into a BNC or TNC female it will stress the female contact and my cause permanent deformation depending on the exact connectors.
BNC / TNC female is designed to mate with a 0.052 to 0/053" diameter pin Ntype is 0.063-0.066" diameter.
See MIL-A-55339A
Robert G8RPI.
|
Re: 11048C feed through termination data?
Correct. My work with JPL on the DSN showed me how much they like TNC's. Everywhere!
However, PROPERLY made BNC last az long time. I have several cubic feet of BNC RG-223 cables gifted me from NSA, and they are VERY good! Connectors do not "twist off" or "distort". You get what you pay for!? J. Kruth
?
In a message dated 3/24/2024 10:01:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Adrian@... writes:
?
That may be true for 50 Ohm but do not try it with the 75 Ohm versions! BNC/TNC have the same inner pin dimensions and 'fix' the impedance by changing the dielectric insert dimensions in the mating area but 'N' type have a different diameter centre contact! We found the other issue with BNC at higher frequencies is that, again possibly due to the method of retention, they seem to fall off much faster over time with use, the inner contact sleeves seemed to get worn/distorted more. Perhaps due to more 'brute force' being used to overcome misalignment during connection but the TNCs seemed to survive much better 'in the field'. This last, in the case of Radio Astronomy, was both a figurative and literal term!
On 24/03/2024 13:36, Jeff Kruth via groups.io wrote:
> To me this is an interesting comment. I do not believe that the
> connector design is limiting in this way. TNC, BNC and type N all
> share a common coaxial design for the inner portion where the RF goes.
> You can plug a type N male into a BNC female and they mate properly,
> there is simply no mechanical retention.
|
Re: 11048C feed through termination data?
BTW it's? Paul Neill and Carl Concelman who were desiners at Bell Labs. While credited with various connector designs I'm pretty sure the attribution of the N and BNC to their names is coincidental and happened long after the introduction of the connectors.
Older docunemts refer to N as Naval but it was almost cetainly just a alphabetic sequence. T/BNC is threaded or Bayonet N Compact in older references. This make more sense than acorporation naming a part after the designer(s) particuarly as when desigined there is no indication of how popular the part may become.
I know of at least one case of theis re-naming after the event. This is the standard for rack mounting avionics equipment. It's known as ATR racking. In the first edition of the specification, ARINC 404 ATR was defined a Air Transport Radio racking. At revision A it was re-defined as Austin Trumbull Radio racking in recognition of the main designer. PArt of ARINC 404A appendix 1 is below.
"GENERAL
The material in this appendix is presented in order to preserve important background regarding the viability of the ATR
concept pioneered by Austin F. Trumbull of United Air Lines (now retired). This importance is not so much related to the
personages involved as it is to the painful, deliberative process through which the present 404A rack concept has evolved
to its present day form.
BACKGROUND
Coincident with the hiring of an ARINC Staff Engineer in the year 1939, the ARINC Board of Directors officially
directed ARINC to accept the responsibility, for the airlines, to coordinate Industry design and development work. This
was the official beginning, within ARINC, of a continuing program identified loosely as the “Air Transport Radio”
development program. Thus, with this introduction of radio racking and equipment box size standards in early 1940, it
was natural that these racking standards were loosely referred to as “ATR” Standards. With the eventual publication of
ARINC Specification No. 404 embracing these original 1940 standards some sixteen years later (May 1, 1956) it was
natural that the acronym “ATR” would have been explained as meaning “Air Transport Radio” (see Section heading of
Section 1.0 and line 12 of Section 1.1 of ARINC Specification No. 404, Page 7, dated May 1, 1956).
founding of AEEC that this definition attributed to the acronym “ATR” was completely erroneous, irrelevant, and
incorrect, and can be attributed only to a typographical error (noting that ARINC employed the first full time
stenographer on May 14, 1939 and she had obviously not yet become familiar with these complicated terms!)
Accordingly a supplement to 404 was proposed to correct that typographical error. Excerpts from that supplement
follow:
To complete the historical record of the early developments of the ARINC “ATR Racking System” this
Supplement will, in addition of decreeing a change in the meaning of the acronym, also serve to add an
Appendix 2 - “Chronology of the ARINC Racking System,” to be recorded in Specification 404.
Change to ARINC Specification No. 404 to be Made by this Supplement No. 5 dated April 15, 1967
It is hereby decreed, retroactive to April 15, 1940, by action of the Airlines Electronic Engineering Committee
on April 12, 1967, that Section 1.0 and 1.1 of ARINC Specification No. 404 dated May 1,1956, will have been
modified by striking out the meaning of “ATR” given in the heading of section 1.0 and in the fourth sentence of
Section 1.1, replacing it by the correct term. Specifically, where the term “Air Transport Radio” is used, it shall
have been replaced by the words “Austin Trumbull Radio” heretofore and hereinafter, which by AEEC decision
will have been made to have been “traditional” since April 15, 1940."
Note ARINC 404 was the basis for MIL-C-172 Which does not mention ATR or Austin.
Robert G8RPI.
|
I’ve had numerous 140s and even a 143 (huge!) but never a 140B. I really don’t need this one, it’s more like the “good cardboard box” we hate to throw away (because it’s a really nice box). This 140B is a newer model (1971 by the serial prefix) and looks fairly clean, which is unusual. So I’ll let the group know what it is when it gets here.?
Thank you - I was beginning to waver.? The high shipping cost to me even in CT and much closer to PA was a big part of the deterrent. ?(That and I already have a 140A in my repair queue.) ?Hope it winds up being a setting when you get it, Jeremy. -Pat
? > ------ Original Message ------
> From: jn6wfo@...
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Friday, March 22nd 2024, 07:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 140B Calibrator
? Well, I am the buyer. Hope I did not get burned, considering the cost of shipping to the west coast from Pennsyltucky (as my father called it). We shall see what turns up on my doorstep in the next couple of weeks.?
? ?
?
The screen photo's in that HP140B add, appear to show a Z axis problem?
(blanking, or not.)
The impression of a square wave I think, is caused by the timebase?
triggering on the incoming power line frequency (50/60Hz) with the sweep?
speed high enough (10uS/div) to see the vertical A/B "chop" signal, with?
the brightness turned up high enough to see the low duty trace, but the?
sweep blanking might not be functioning correctly, and/or the CRT bias?
setting is out of adjustment.
Probably fixable, the rest of it looks clean, save for a dent in the top?
cover.
Shame it's not in the UK, but I do know West Chester PA from trips over?
there for the past day job.
--?
Sent from a MicroSoft free zone:
?
|
Re: 11048C feed through termination data?
50R BNC / TNC and 50R N types have the same outer conductor inner diameter and center conductor outer diameter BUT the tapered and reduced pin diameter is larger on N types than BNC / TNC . Thus while you can push a N male into a BNC or TNC female it will stress the female contact and my cause permanent deformation depending on the exact connectors.
BNC / TNC female is designed to mate with a 0.052 to 0/053" diameter pin Ntype is 0.063-0.066" diameter.
See MIL-A-55339A
Robert G8RPI.
|
Re: 11048C feed through termination data?
That may be true for 50 Ohm but do not try it with the 75 Ohm versions!
BNC/TNC have the same inner pin dimensions and 'fix' the impedance by changing the dielectric insert dimensions in the mating area but 'N' type have a different diameter centre contact!
We found the other issue with BNC at higher frequencies is that, again possibly due to the method of retention, they seem to fall off much faster over time with use, the inner contact sleeves seemed to get worn/distorted more. Perhaps due to more 'brute force' being used to overcome misalignment during connection but the TNCs seemed to survive much better 'in the field'. This last, in the case of Radio Astronomy, was both a figurative and literal term!
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 24/03/2024 13:36, Jeff Kruth via groups.io wrote: To me this is an interesting comment. I do not believe that the connector design is limiting in this way. TNC, BNC and type N all share a common coaxial design for the inner portion where the RF goes. You can plug a type N male into a BNC female and they mate properly, there is simply no mechanical retention.
|
Re: 11048C feed through termination data?
To me this is an interesting comment. I do not believe that the connector design is limiting in this way. TNC, BNC and type N all share a common coaxial design for the inner portion where the RF goes. You can plug a type N male into a BNC female and they mate properly, there is simply no mechanical retention. Bayonet Neil-Councilman (BNC) is exactly the same as a Threaded Neil-Councilman (TNC) (gee, hope I spelled their names right). The threads on the TNC reduce possibility of leakage, BNC's were rated to 4 GHz because they leak a bit above due to the bayonet method of affixing the connector pair. Even the OLD TNC were good to 12 GHz and the modern stainless types to 18 GHz. Type N (Neil, not Navy) in stainless is good to 18 GHz and Brass easily to 10 GHz.
Wear , design (age) and other factors affect all of this, including were it comes from. The PRC does not provide the best quality connectors for serious work. Not sure if they even know what Teflon is.
A modern connector catalog from a reputable supplier will confirm any of this.
J.Kruth
In a message dated 3/24/2024 12:49:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, donbitters@... writes:
?
Typically anything with a BNC connection is only rated to 1 GHz, ie. HP 355 attenuators. ?I have pushed a BNC cable to 1.5 GHz, but that is as far as I would go with it.
DigiKey lists BNC connector spec.
|
Re: AR488 GP-IB boards with bluetooth
Tom,
thanks for the additional info. I guess I have to build a AR488 and try for myself. Or make the project work with the KE5FX toolbox, in particular the 7074 plotter emulator.
Br
Marcus
|
Will do Jon, thanks.
I use to buy Artek's because they are real searchable pdf which is a must.
Renaud
|
Re: total newbie into GP-IB
Thank you Jason, you spreaded some light in the darkness
Also, I saw?and wonder if it is a good option for me, what you think? Are these ethernet-to-gpib boxes in some maner easier to handle and configure than the USB ones??
If it isn't a good option (maybe is out of date or complex config) I'll go for a NI USB adapter. If you know a realiable seller on eBay Europe, please, tell me. Still not very comfy with the idea of buying a counterfeit, but the price tag of the original or new NIs are totally out of my budget :D I only want to learn GPIB and tinker with my rack, no need to spend 500-1500 � in this.
Regards,
Ruben
|
Renaud, Check HP Memory project site as well may have original paper and better PDF manuals for various SN/opt.
The original HP paper manuals are well worth the cost if you can find.
Jon
|
I got Artek 08640-90197 for the 1978 UK.
It covers the US make 1609 to 2408 and UK 1625 to 2025. Mine is U1849.
Other manual there seems for older makes.
Maybe the military version? TO33A1-8-684?
Renaud
|
GH, could you give me the reference of that Artek manual please?
There's six of them I believe.
Renaud
|
Eh bien! Such a bunch of knowledge here! Yes, as usual, but amazing anyway.
Adam: I agree, I will probably fix it by logically look where the signal disappears. My "spatio-temporal coordinates" were to find the right manual for the young board. This will help to follow the signals. Not so easy without the right diagram.
Tom: Thanks, I did my homework and I'm aware of the VE7CA mod, à la N2GX in fact. The MC10EL31DG is available with Mouser here. Then, not sure the problem is there.
Glenn: One difficulty is to place the build of mine as the SN is badly scratched. I will investigate though with your datas. Thanks.
Jon: Thanks, four of them? Quelle honte!
Dave: Now I'll have to compute your datas vs those of Glenn! More work but thanks a lot to both.
GH: Perfect! I'll buy that one from Artek too as I have the right one from them already for the 1978 UK made.
Thanks again to you all!
Renaud
|
Re: 11048C feed through termination data?
Typically anything with a BNC connection is only rated to 1 GHz, ie. HP 355 attenuators. ?I have pushed a BNC cable to 1.5 GHz, but that is as far as I would go with it. DigiKey lists BNC connector spec.
Specifications for BNC Connectors BNC style connectors are miniature, light-weight, weatherproof interconnecting devices characterized by their two-stud, quick disconnect bayonet lock coupling arrangement. Their design functions satisfactorily from DC to 11 GHz in static applications, or from DC to 4GHz in applications involving vibration. The connectors typically yield a low VSWR (reflected signal) to 4GHz. Primary applications include radio telecommunications, broadcast equipment, medical equipment, computer, Precision Video, High definition studio broadcast, video switching and test instrumentation where frequent coupling and de-coupling are necessary.? Bomar’s BNCs are available in an extensive variety of configurations and cable sizes and are impedance matched to either 50 ohm or 75 ohm. ?? Connector Body and Parts Frequency Range ??ELECTRICAL ?? ??Performance Test ? Specification ?? ??Impedance 50 ohm???0-4GHz 75 ohm.???0-1 GHz ? ??VSWR 1.30 Max.??MIL-C-39012 ? ??RF Insertion Loss 0.2 db Min. at 3 GHz.??MIL-C-39012 ? ??RF Leakage ??Working Voltage ( At Sea Level ).??-55 db Min. at 3 GHz.??MIL-C-39012 ???Test Voltage ( At Sea Level) 1500V rms.??MIL-STD-202 ???500V rms.??MIL-STD-202 ? ??Insulation Resistance 5000 Meg ohms Min.???MIL-STD-202 ?? ??Contact Resistance 3 Milli ohms Max. ? ?Don Bitters
|
Thank you - I was beginning to waver. ?The high shipping cost to me even in CT and much closer to PA was a big part of the deterrent. ?(That and I already have a 140A in my repair queue.) ?Hope it winds up being a setting when you get it, Jeremy. -Pat
?
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: jn6wfo@...
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Friday, March 22nd 2024, 07:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 140B Calibrator
? Well, I am the buyer. Hope I did not get burned, considering the cost of shipping to the west coast from Pennsyltucky (as my father called it). We shall see what turns up on my doorstep in the next couple of weeks.?
? ?
?
The screen photo's in that HP140B add, appear to show a Z axis problem?
(blanking, or not.)
The impression of a square wave I think, is caused by the timebase?
triggering on the incoming power line frequency (50/60Hz) with the sweep?
speed high enough (10uS/div) to see the vertical A/B "chop" signal, with?
the brightness turned up high enough to see the low duty trace, but the?
sweep blanking might not be functioning correctly, and/or the CRT bias?
setting is out of adjustment.
Probably fixable, the rest of it looks clean, save for a dent in the top?
cover.
Shame it's not in the UK, but I do know West Chester PA from trips over?
there for the past day job.
--?
Sent from a MicroSoft free zone:
?
|
Hi,
The service manual on this RF signal generator from Artek Media on page 306 of 415 pages, has a photo of this board, (the one on the right in your original e-mail). And I 'm sure the schematic representation is there also.
Hope this helps.
I have one of these RF generators and it works well. I replaced the major capacitors, the gears with brass ones, (they are on Ebay, come from India). And used epoxy to secure all the tiny metal fingers on all the rotary switches.
|
I disagree, Glenn.? HP's archived manuals are*** a mess.? Keysight's cover sheet for
08640-90215?claims
it's Volume 1 and 2 - and there's a picture of the Volume 1 spine - but it's actually Volume 2 only: Sections 6, 7 (empty), and 8. 08640-90215 covers Serial Prefix 2520A through 2923A.
If you want Volume 1, i.e. Sections I through V*, go to 08640-90208 (8640B Manual 08640-90208 Sep 1985.pdf**)?archived at groups.io
in HPAK's Files area.
Volume 2 (90215) is at BAMA and elsewhere.
* Yes, 90208 is roman numerals and 90215 is arabic numerals.
** That's what I named it locally, I can't remember what it's called at groups.io .
?*** Were.? Looks like KS deleted this manual off their site.? It doesn't show up in my search today.
Meanwhile, 08640-90017, "8640B Signal Generator Operating and Service Manual" at Keysight, covers
S/P 1324A with backdating to 1229A. ?
If you want the schematics, get TM 9-4935-601-14-7&P which is archived at BAMA and?other?sites.? The TM also contains updates from 1327A
through 1552A.
I have a paper manual, 08640-90186, which covers S/P 1802A with backdating to 1609A.? It came with a Manual Change sheet with updates
from 1810A through 2031A.
Nobody seems to have a manual covering the gap between 1552A and 1609A, or the gap between 2031A and 2520A.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Manual 08640-90017 covers 08640-60383 ser 2520A-2828A and 08640-60483 ser 2835A and above.
So you are looking for a manual prior to 08640-90017.
It appears that there were at least fore different revisions to this board.
All of the military manuals that I have cover 08640-60023.
Maybe this will narrow down your search.
73
Glenn
WB4UIV
On 3/23/2024 2:58 PM, Renaud F5ZR via groups.io wrote:
I am working on a US made HP8640B from around 1987. The SN is scratched which doesn't help but some ICs are dated 1987.
It is working fine and apart from the usual cracked gear, lightly and only one, no mechanical issue. All the brushes in place.
The two upper bands, 250-500 and 500-1GHz deliver perfectly. All mechanisms smooth. But no output under 250 MHz so I inquired about the divider board A10A2.
I swapped the A10A2 board with the one of my other 8640 (UK made 1978). This cured the problem so I now have to repair the faulty one.
On the left is the old working one whose service manual "HP_8640B_Maintenance_Manual 1986" I have. I don't have one for the more recent clearly different.
Anybody know about that "new" design? Thanks.
Renaud
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Little ARRL Technical Specialist QCWA LM 28417
Amateur Callsign: WB4UIV wb4uiv@... AMSAT LM 2178
QTH: Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx) USSVI, FRA, NRA-LM ARRL TAPR
"It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
of the Amateur that holds the license"
|
Jos Raven PA0AMX
Jeremy Nichols
RubenRubio
Froggie the Gremlin
Cubdriver