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Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

Tom -
I agree (and feel dumb). BUT I would expect that he should have made that point during the discussion. So it turns out to be an oversite as opposed to amistake.


Cgeers!

Bruce

Quoting n8zmTWH@...:

Frankly, I don't see that S11 statement as an error. While technically, S11 is the measured reflection coefficient, it is that value which is used, along with the system characteristic impedance, to calculate the device impedance. So when Dunsmore makes that statement, he is simply jumping over the intermediate calculation step to point out that S11 gives you Z. In the context of the discussion, this does not seem to be an error, but rather a bit of enlightening illumination in case the reader has not yet made that small leap.

Tom, N8ZM

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 1:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

Thanks David - I will probably buy the HP book first and then see if I
still have interest in the R&S book.

I am concerned about the error concerning the definition of S11 - does
your copy have that error (which edition is it) ?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd"
<drkirkby@...>:

On Sat, 3 Sept 2022 at 04:27, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:

I intend to purchase either of both of the following books. I do have an
extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good
bedtime reading. The candidate books are:
1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA
Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)
I *had *both, but sold Heibel. I rarely sell textbooks (only one of two I
can think of in 2 decades). Heibel seems to sell from virtually nothing
(what I paid for mine), to over $1000. (I made 10 dB or so proffit on the
book??).

Dunsmore is quite advanced, and discusses a lot of things you can't do with
affordable VNAs. I did notice a few typos. You might find an errata page.
There's a lot of emphasis on the time domain, which Joel done his PhD on.
You need pretty decent maths skills to follow it. I know the reviewer of
the book, and he loves lots of detailed maths.

Heibel is very superficial. It has colour photographs, but doesn't really
have much content. I'm a bit surprised that reviewer was keen on Heibel, as
my maths is pretty crap, but I found the book lacking in much substance.

Dave
Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

Matt -
Thanks for that - I'd like to hear what he has to say about the comment.

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting Matt Huszagh <huszaghmatt@...>:

Here's an image of the relevant page from edition 1. The offending line
seems to be "And it is common to refer to S11 informally as the input
impedance of the network". For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of that line
either, but I'd be curious to hear what Joel says about this statement.

The exact same statement is made in edition 2.

Matt

On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 3:50 PM <n8zmTWH@...> wrote:

Frankly, I don't see that S11 statement as an error. While technically,
S11 is the measured reflection coefficient, it is that value which is used,
along with the system characteristic impedance, to calculate the device
impedance. So when Dunsmore makes that statement, he is simply jumping over
the intermediate calculation step to point out that S11 gives you Z. In the
context of the discussion, this does not seem to be an error, but rather a
bit of enlightening illumination in case the reader has not yet made that
small leap.

Tom, N8ZM

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <
[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 1:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Which Vector network analysis
book to buy - help

Thanks David - I will probably buy the HP book first and then see if I
still have interest in the R&S book.

I am concerned about the error concerning the definition of S11 - does
your copy have that error (which edition is it) ?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd"
<drkirkby@...>:

On Sat, 3 Sept 2022 at 04:27, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:

I intend to purchase either of both of the following books. I do have
an
extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good
bedtime reading. The candidate books are:
1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA
Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)
I *had *both, but sold Heibel. I rarely sell textbooks (only one of two I
can think of in 2 decades). Heibel seems to sell from virtually nothing
(what I paid for mine), to over $1000. (I made 10 dB or so proffit on the
book??).

Dunsmore is quite advanced, and discusses a lot of things you can't do
with
affordable VNAs. I did notice a few typos. You might find an errata page.
There's a lot of emphasis on the time domain, which Joel done his PhD on.
You need pretty decent maths skills to follow it. I know the reviewer of
the book, and he loves lots of detailed maths.

Heibel is very superficial. It has colour photographs, but doesn't really
have much content. I'm a bit surprised that reviewer was keen on Heibel,
as
my maths is pretty crap, but I found the book lacking in much substance.

Dave
Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

Here's an image of the relevant page from edition 1. The offending line seems to be "And it is common to refer to S11 informally as the input impedance of the network". For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of that line either, but I'd be curious to hear what Joel says about this statement.

The exact same statement is made in edition 2.

Matt


On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 3:50 PM <n8zmTWH@...> wrote:
Frankly, I don't see that S11 statement as an error. While technically, S11 is the measured reflection coefficient, it is that value which is used, along with the system characteristic impedance, to calculate the device impedance. So when Dunsmore makes that statement, he is simply jumping over the intermediate calculation step to point out that S11 gives you Z. In the context of the discussion, this does not seem to be an error, but rather a bit of enlightening illumination in case the reader has not yet made that small leap.

Tom, N8ZM

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 1:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

Thanks David - I will probably buy the HP book first and then see if I?
still have interest in the R&S book.

I am concerned about the error concerning the definition of S11 - does?
your copy have that error (which edition is it) ?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd"?
<drkirkby@...>:

> On Sat, 3 Sept 2022 at 04:27, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:
>
>> I intend to purchase either of both of the following books.? I do have an
>> extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good
>> bedtime reading.? The candidate books are:
>> 1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA
>> Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
>> 2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)
>>
>
> I *had *both, but sold Heibel. I rarely sell textbooks (only one of two I
> can think of in 2 decades).? Heibel seems to sell from virtually nothing
> (what I paid for mine), to over $1000. (I made 10 dB or so proffit on the
> book??).
>
> Dunsmore is quite advanced, and discusses a lot of things you can't do with
> affordable VNAs. I did notice a few typos. You might find an errata page.
> There's a lot of emphasis on the time domain, which Joel done his PhD on.
> You need pretty decent maths skills to follow it. I know the reviewer of
> the book, and he loves lots of detailed maths.
>
> Heibel is very superficial. It has colour photographs, but doesn't really
> have much content. I'm a bit surprised that reviewer was keen on Heibel, as
> my maths is pretty crap, but I found the book lacking in much substance.
>
> Dave
>
>
>














dunsmore.png

Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

Frankly, I don't see that S11 statement as an error. While technically, S11 is the measured reflection coefficient, it is that value which is used, along with the system characteristic impedance, to calculate the device impedance. So when Dunsmore makes that statement, he is simply jumping over the intermediate calculation step to point out that S11 gives you Z. In the context of the discussion, this does not seem to be an error, but rather a bit of enlightening illumination in case the reader has not yet made that small leap.

Tom, N8ZM

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 1:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

Thanks David - I will probably buy the HP book first and then see if I
still have interest in the R&S book.

I am concerned about the error concerning the definition of S11 - does
your copy have that error (which edition is it) ?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd"
<drkirkby@...>:

On Sat, 3 Sept 2022 at 04:27, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:

I intend to purchase either of both of the following books. I do have an
extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good
bedtime reading. The candidate books are:
1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA
Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)
I *had *both, but sold Heibel. I rarely sell textbooks (only one of two I
can think of in 2 decades). Heibel seems to sell from virtually nothing
(what I paid for mine), to over $1000. (I made 10 dB or so proffit on the
book??).

Dunsmore is quite advanced, and discusses a lot of things you can't do with
affordable VNAs. I did notice a few typos. You might find an errata page.
There's a lot of emphasis on the time domain, which Joel done his PhD on.
You need pretty decent maths skills to follow it. I know the reviewer of
the book, and he loves lots of detailed maths.

Heibel is very superficial. It has colour photographs, but doesn't really
have much content. I'm a bit surprised that reviewer was keen on Heibel, as
my maths is pretty crap, but I found the book lacking in much substance.

Dave
Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Yes, proofreading one's own writing is a low-yield process. Your brain knows what you meant, and so you tend to see that, rather than what's actually printed. You need to have other humans look at it, preferably ones that are generally familiar with the subject, but not so familiar that they, too, would know what was meant, rather than what's on the page.

And even then, errors leak through the sieve. Filters have finite stopband attenuation.

--Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 9/3/2022 14:41, Caesar Valenti wrote:

I just got a short email from him. He has seen or comments about typos on Amazon. I can ask next time I see him.
What page was it on...so I can find it quickly?? My book is at work so I can't check now.

Having written lots of documentation myself, I am always amazed at how I can read something multiple times and still not see some glaring error.? I can't imagine how much proofreading went into that very complex book...and they still missed a lot.? I guess that is what 2nd editions are for!

Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

Do you have first or second edition ?

Probably best to just show him the comment and he will probably know where it is. I don't yet have a copy of the book.

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting Caesar Valenti <caesarv@...>:

I just got a short email from him. He has seen or comments about typos on Amazon. I can ask next time I see him.
What page was it on...so I can find it quickly?? My book is at work so I can't check now.

Having written lots of documentation myself, I am always amazed at how I can read something multiple times and still not see some glaring error.? I can't imagine how much proofreading went into that very complex book...and they still missed a lot.? I guess that is what 2nd editions are for!
Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

I just got a short email from him. He has seen or comments about typos on Amazon. I can ask next time I see him.
What page was it on...so I can find it quickly?? My book is at work so I can't check now.

Having written lots of documentation myself, I am always amazed at how I can read something multiple times and still not see some glaring error.? I can't imagine how much proofreading went into that very complex book...and they still missed a lot.? I guess that is what 2nd editions are for!
Re: HP instrument measuring ¡°RMS Power¡±

 

I saw another 3400A with Option C61, nothing obvious on the dial face. Anyone now what that is?
?????????????????????? Mikek
Re: HP instrument measuring ¡°RMS Power¡±

 

That could be. When I was buying this meter, years ago, I didn¡¯t notice the difference in the meter face¡ªdidn¡¯t even occur to me to wonder why it was the way it was.?



On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 2:17 PM tgerbic <tgerbic@...> wrote:
Jeremy, thanks for the photos. I guess it was an add on scale just setup to indicate the dbW figure correlated to the dbM graduations.?
--
T. Gerbic
Central California

--
Jeremy Nichols
6.
Re: HP instrument measuring ¡°RMS Power¡±

 

Jeremy, thanks for the photos. I guess it was an add on scale just setup to indicate the dbW figure correlated to the dbM graduations.?
--
T. Gerbic
Central California
Re: Replacement OCXO board for 5315B

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Email sent


-------- Original message --------
From: Joel Setton <setton@...>
Date: 9/3/22 3:47 AM (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Replacement OCXO board for 5315B

Hello everyone,

Just as a follow-up for the other topic (1820-2131 for the 5315B counter).

My 5315B came with Option 004, which is the high-stability OCXO. Unfortunately, the Ovenaire 85-50 oscillator had a problem with the heater which stayed cold, so it "worked" and generated a sinewave, but was 30 Hz away from its nominal 10.0000 MHz.

I decided to use another OCXO and got a Bliley NVG47A, for which I designed a PC board which mounts on the original bracket intended for the Ovenaire oscillator (re: attached pictures). No electrical or mechanical changes to the counter are needed.

I have a few bare PC boards which I'd be glad to sell for $1 each plus the price of mailing from France. If anybody is interested, please let me know !

Cheers,

Joel

Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

Thanks David - I will probably buy the HP book first and then see if I still have interest in the R&S book.

I am concerned about the error concerning the definition of S11 - does your copy have that error (which edition is it) ?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd" <drkirkby@...>:

On Sat, 3 Sept 2022 at 04:27, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:

I intend to purchase either of both of the following books. I do have an
extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good
bedtime reading. The candidate books are:
1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA
Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)
I *had *both, but sold Heibel. I rarely sell textbooks (only one of two I
can think of in 2 decades). Heibel seems to sell from virtually nothing
(what I paid for mine), to over $1000. (I made 10 dB or so proffit on the
book??).

Dunsmore is quite advanced, and discusses a lot of things you can't do with
affordable VNAs. I did notice a few typos. You might find an errata page.
There's a lot of emphasis on the time domain, which Joel done his PhD on.
You need pretty decent maths skills to follow it. I know the reviewer of
the book, and he loves lots of detailed maths.

Heibel is very superficial. It has colour photographs, but doesn't really
have much content. I'm a bit surprised that reviewer was keen on Heibel, as
my maths is pretty crap, but I found the book lacking in much substance.

Dave
Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

Thanks Caesar -

What does h say about the negative comment on reflection coefficient. That would be a bit hard to classify as a typo?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting Caesar Valenti <caesarv@...>:

According to Joel this morning, he knows there were a fair number of typos in the first edition.? Most of these were fixed in the second edition...in addition to new material.
CV
Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

According to Joel this morning, he knows there were a fair number of typos in the first edition.? Most of these were fixed in the second edition...in addition to new material.
CV
Photo Notifications #photo-notice

Group Notification
 

Jeremy Nichols <jn6wfo@...> added the album HP-3400A Option C87 With Meter Movement in RMS Watts : Option C87 provides the HP-3400A with a meter movement calibrated in dBw, Volts, and RMS Watts.

The following photos have been uploaded to the HP-3400A Option C87 (RMS Watts) album of the [email protected] group.

By: Jeremy Nichols <jn6wfo@...>
Re: HP instrument measuring ¡°RMS Power¡±

 

Photos of the front and back of my 3400A have been uploaded to an album entitled ¡°HP-3400A Option C87 (RMS Watts).¡± The url of the album is:?





On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 9:47 PM tgerbic <tgerbic@...> wrote:
Jeremy,
I don't think I have seen a 3400A with a scale in watts (option C87) can you send a clear photo of the front and the scale.

I also have a 3400A and it is a great meter with a crest factor like my 3456A.

--
T. Gerbic
Central California

--
Jeremy Nichols
6.
Re: Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

 

On Sat, 3 Sept 2022 at 04:27, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:
I intend to purchase either of both of the following books.? I do have an extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good bedtime reading.? The candidate books are:
1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)
?
I had both, but sold Heibel. I rarely sell textbooks (only one of two I can think of in 2 decades).? Heibel seems to sell from virtually nothing (what I paid for mine), to over $1000. (I made 10 dB or so proffit on the book??).?

Dunsmore is quite advanced, and discusses a lot of things you can't do with affordable VNAs. I did notice a few typos. You might find an errata page. There's a lot of emphasis on the time domain, which Joel done his PhD on. You need pretty decent maths skills to follow it. I know the reviewer of the book, and he loves lots of detailed maths.

Heibel is very superficial. It has colour photographs, but doesn't really have much content. I'm a bit surprised that reviewer was keen on Heibel, as my maths is pretty crap, but I found the book lacking in much substance.?

Dave

Re: HP instrument measuring ¡°RMS Power¡±

 

On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 at 07:48, tgerbic <tgerbic@...> wrote:

The 434A is a calorimetric meter. It is calibrated using by measuring a DC power supply and the calibration port on the front provides a DC signal. I suspect it would effectively be RMS since it is the same wattage measurement for AC as DC.
--
T. Gerbic
Central California

The mean AC power provides the same heating as DC. So RMS watts have no practical use, but that doesn¡¯t stop them being used in the wrong places.?

For a sine wave feeding a resistor, the mean power dissipated in the resistor is not the same as the RMS power. I did once work out the maths of it, but can¡¯t recall the difference - if you Google RMS power, I am sure you will find articles showing ?RMS power is a pointless measurement.?

But as I note from both Analog Devices and Minicircuits, even big companies make the error occasionally.? Keysight seem immune - I can¡¯t see any Keysight products that claim to measure RMS power.?? But I have seen the term on some bit of test equipment. I thought it was old HP, but it might have been Marconi.?
--
Dr. David Kirkby,
Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
drkirkby@...

Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100

Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
Registered office:
Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom
Replacement OCXO board for 5315B

 

Hello everyone,

Just as a follow-up for the other topic (1820-2131 for the 5315B counter).

My 5315B came with Option 004, which is the high-stability OCXO. Unfortunately, the Ovenaire 85-50 oscillator had a problem with the heater which stayed cold, so it "worked" and generated a sinewave, but was 30 Hz away from its nominal 10.0000 MHz.

I decided to use another OCXO and got a Bliley NVG47A, for which I designed a PC board which mounts on the original bracket intended for the Ovenaire oscillator (re: attached pictures). No electrical or mechanical changes to the counter are needed.

I have a few bare PC boards which I'd be glad to sell for $1 each plus the price of mailing from France. If anybody is interested, please let me know !

Cheers,

Joel

DSCF7884-2048.jpg
DSCF7885-2048.jpg

Re: Chips for 5315A/B counter: 1820-2131 and 1820-2312

 

Hi Kevin,

Of course I'm still reading this thread ! Here's my 1820-2131 story.

The 1820-2131 is a Mostek MK3870 microcontroller which includes mask-programmed ROM. This chip was first produced by Mostek, then second-sourced by Motorola (I guess the 3870 series was never a part of Motorola's product line). Of course, this chip is now pure unobtainum.

I got a 5315B counter which needed a new 1820-2131. Fortunately, the mask-programmed 3870 can be replaced with a 38P70 (the "P" stands for "Piggyback") fitted with an external 2716 EPROM. Although not cheap, the 38P70 is still available on Epay. The next missing part is the microcode which I think was never published by HP.

Fortunately, Maurice Smulders had a disassembled version of the code, apparently read from a 1820-2131 chip by Sean Riddle. He was kind enough to send it to this group (re. his message on 08/18/19), so I burned it into a 2716, plugged it in my 5315A and crossed my fingers. With a little additional debugging, I got it to work :

- The 38P70 seems to require higher logic-high levels on inputs pins 38 (Ext/int) and 39 (/Reset). This is easily fixed by soldering two 100K pull-up resistors on the underside of the board.

- The 5315B worked, but upon power-up it displayed error E1. This code means the checksum mechanism in the microcode has detected a problem, which I was finally able to identify. The root cause is that the disassembly process generated incorrect data at address 0x7E8, which was an unused address in the original code. This byte must be changed to 0x2B:
?? ?7e6: b5??????? OUTS $05
?? ?7e7: 1c??????? POP
?? ?7e8: 2b??????? NOP????????? ; This byte corrected by JS on Oct 6, 2019
?? ?7e9: 2b??????? NOP
?? ?7ea: 2b??????? NOP

With the corrected file (and pull-up resistors), the "piggyback version" of the 1820-2131 works perfectly on a 5315B. I also tested it in a 5316A and it works just as great. A copy of the binary file is attached.

Comments welcome !

Cheers,

Joel

1820-2131corrected.asm
1820-2131corrected.asm

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