?? I've always done the same thing with most technical subjects.
Algorithms is a favorite example.? I have at least a dozen books on
algorithms by different authors.? There's a significant amount of
overlap in the specific algorithms they cover, but different authors
explain things very differently, and I find that I gain a more thorough
understanding when I read similar material written in different ways or
from different points of view.

? ?Of course the downside is a library of 1300+ books, but really, I
don't have any problem with that. :)

? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 at 07:48, tgerbic <tgerbic@...> wrote:

The 434A is a calorimetric meter. It is calibrated using by measuring a DC power supply and the calibration port on the front provides a DC signal. I suspect it would effectively be RMS since it is the same wattage measurement for AC as DC.
--
T. Gerbic
Central California

The mean AC power provides the same heating as DC. So RMS watts have no practical use, but that doesn’t stop them being used in the wrong places.?

For a sine wave feeding a resistor, the mean power dissipated in the resistor is not the same as the RMS power. I did once work out the maths of it, but can’t recall the difference - if you Google RMS power, I am sure you will find articles showing ?RMS power is a pointless measurement.?

But as I note from both Analog Devices and Minicircuits, even big companies make the error occasionally.? Keysight seem immune - I can’t see any Keysight products that claim to measure RMS power.?? But I have seen the term on some bit of test equipment. I thought it was old HP, but it might have been Marconi.?

--

Dr. David Kirkby,
Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
drkirkby@...

Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100

Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
Registered office:
Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom

There is a fairly good bio on Wikipedia, search for John Renshaw Carson. Carson wrote extensively on modulation theory and designed bell systems carrier telephone system.

He wrote an analysis of FM in which he concluded that narrow band FM was not advantageous.? Armstrong refuted this.? I don't think Carson said FM wouldn't work.? Armstrong was clobbered by David Sarnoff for reasons thT were largely personal.? After Armstrong suicide his wife continued the litigation against RCA and eventually prevailed. Btw, she had been Sarnoff secretary.

Thanks - and I probably will.? You might be interested in reading up on the advent of FM radio - "They" said it wouldn't work.

Cheer!

Bruce

Quoting Richard Knoppow <dickburk@...>:

Just because this is relevant to something I am studying, I? find it helpful to have more than one book on anything I am trying to learn. Simply because one author is apt to leave something out or be confusing.? ?I have? been studying the history of wireless/radio.? Actually a long standing interest.? In the last few weeks I have read three books and will re read a couple of others.? One of the books I just finished glosses over some stuff but I knew it from other sources.? However he so added some details that were new to me so there is something to be gained from multiple sources.? ?I am long retired from -hp- and also have a healthy respect for R&S. Get both books unless they are a fortune.Sent from my Galaxy

Just because this is relevant to something I am studying, I? find it helpful to have more than one book on anything I am trying to learn. Simply because one author is apt to leave something out or be confusing.? ?I have? been studying the history of wireless/radio.? Actually a long standing interest.? In the last few weeks I have read three books and will re read a couple of others.? One of the books I just finished glosses over some stuff but I knew it from other sources.? However he so added some details that were new to me so there is something to be gained from multiple sources.? ?I am long retired from -hp- and also have a healthy respect for R&S. Get both books unless they are a fortune.Sent from my Galaxy

Bruce...

The sentence that Matt quoted from the book seems to support my contention. Dunsmore says it is used informally. I don't see why the reviewer was criticizing except for the purpose of being pompous.

Tom, N8ZM

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 9:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

Tom -
I agree (and feel dumb). BUT I would expect that he should have made
that point during the discussion. So it turns out to be an oversite
as opposed to amistake.


Cgeers!

Bruce

Quoting n8zmTWH@...:

Frankly, I don't see that S11 statement as an error. While
technically, S11 is the measured reflection coefficient, it is that
value which is used, along with the system characteristic impedance,
to calculate the device impedance. So when Dunsmore makes that
statement, he is simply jumping over the intermediate calculation
step to point out that S11 gives you Z. In the context of the
discussion, this does not seem to be an error, but rather a bit of
enlightening illumination in case the reader has not yet made that
small leap.

Tom, N8ZM

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 1:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Which Vector network
analysis book to buy - help

Thanks David - I will probably buy the HP book first and then see if I
still have interest in the R&S book.

I am concerned about the error concerning the definition of S11 - does
your copy have that error (which edition is it) ?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd"
<drkirkby@...>:

On Sat, 3 Sept 2022 at 04:27, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:

I intend to purchase either of both of the following books. I do have an
extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good
bedtime reading. The candidate books are:
1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA
Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)

I *had *both, but sold Heibel. I rarely sell textbooks (only one of two I
can think of in 2 decades). Heibel seems to sell from virtually nothing
(what I paid for mine), to over $1000. (I made 10 dB or so proffit on the
book??).

Dunsmore is quite advanced, and discusses a lot of things you can't do with
affordable VNAs. I did notice a few typos. You might find an errata page.
There's a lot of emphasis on the time domain, which Joel done his PhD on.
You need pretty decent maths skills to follow it. I know the reviewer of
the book, and he loves lots of detailed maths.

Heibel is very superficial. It has colour photographs, but doesn't really
have much content. I'm a bit surprised that reviewer was keen on Heibel, as
my maths is pretty crap, but I found the book lacking in much substance.

Dave

Frankly, I don't see that S11 statement as an error. While
technically, S11 is the measured reflection coefficient, it is that
value which is used, along with the system characteristic impedance,
to calculate the device impedance. So when Dunsmore makes that
statement, he is simply jumping over the intermediate calculation
step to point out that S11 gives you Z. In the context of the
discussion, this does not seem to be an error, but rather a bit of
enlightening illumination in case the reader has not yet made that
small leap.

Tom, N8ZM

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 1:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Which Vector network
analysis book to buy - help

Thanks David - I will probably buy the HP book first and then see if I
still have interest in the R&S book.

I am concerned about the error concerning the definition of S11 - does
your copy have that error (which edition is it) ?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd"
<drkirkby@...>:

On Sat, 3 Sept 2022 at 04:27, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:

I intend to purchase either of both of the following books. I do have an
extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good
bedtime reading. The candidate books are:
1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA
Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)

I *had *both, but sold Heibel. I rarely sell textbooks (only one of two I
can think of in 2 decades). Heibel seems to sell from virtually nothing
(what I paid for mine), to over $1000. (I made 10 dB or so proffit on the
book??).

Dunsmore is quite advanced, and discusses a lot of things you can't do with
affordable VNAs. I did notice a few typos. You might find an errata page.
There's a lot of emphasis on the time domain, which Joel done his PhD on.
You need pretty decent maths skills to follow it. I know the reviewer of
the book, and he loves lots of detailed maths.

Heibel is very superficial. It has colour photographs, but doesn't really
have much content. I'm a bit surprised that reviewer was keen on Heibel, as
my maths is pretty crap, but I found the book lacking in much substance.

Dave

Frankly, I don't see that S11 statement as an error. While technically, S11 is the measured reflection coefficient, it is that value which is used, along with the system characteristic impedance, to calculate the device impedance. So when Dunsmore makes that statement, he is simply jumping over the intermediate calculation step to point out that S11 gives you Z. In the context of the discussion, this does not seem to be an error, but rather a bit of enlightening illumination in case the reader has not yet made that small leap.

Tom, N8ZM

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 1:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Which Vector network analysis book to buy - help

Thanks David - I will probably buy the HP book first and then see if I
still have interest in the R&S book.

I am concerned about the error concerning the definition of S11 - does
your copy have that error (which edition is it) ?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd"
<drkirkby@...>:

On Sat, 3 Sept 2022 at 04:27, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:

I intend to purchase either of both of the following books. I do have an
extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good
bedtime reading. The candidate books are:
1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA
Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)

I *had *both, but sold Heibel. I rarely sell textbooks (only one of two I
can think of in 2 decades). Heibel seems to sell from virtually nothing
(what I paid for mine), to over $1000. (I made 10 dB or so proffit on the
book??).

Dunsmore is quite advanced, and discusses a lot of things you can't do with
affordable VNAs. I did notice a few typos. You might find an errata page.
There's a lot of emphasis on the time domain, which Joel done his PhD on.
You need pretty decent maths skills to follow it. I know the reviewer of
the book, and he loves lots of detailed maths.

Heibel is very superficial. It has colour photographs, but doesn't really
have much content. I'm a bit surprised that reviewer was keen on Heibel, as
my maths is pretty crap, but I found the book lacking in much substance.

Dave

Here's an image of the relevant page from edition 1. The offending line
seems to be "And it is common to refer to S11 informally as the input
impedance of the network". For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of that line
either, but I'd be curious to hear what Joel says about this statement.

The exact same statement is made in edition 2.

Matt

On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 3:50 PM <n8zmTWH@...> wrote:

Frankly, I don't see that S11 statement as an error. While technically,
S11 is the measured reflection coefficient, it is that value which is used,
along with the system characteristic impedance, to calculate the device
impedance. So when Dunsmore makes that statement, he is simply jumping over
the intermediate calculation step to point out that S11 gives you Z. In the
context of the discussion, this does not seem to be an error, but rather a
bit of enlightening illumination in case the reader has not yet made that
small leap.

Tom, N8ZM

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <
[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2022 1:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Which Vector network analysis
book to buy - help

Thanks David - I will probably buy the HP book first and then see if I
still have interest in the R&S book.

I am concerned about the error concerning the definition of S11 - does
your copy have that error (which edition is it) ?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd"
<drkirkby@...>:

On Sat, 3 Sept 2022 at 04:27, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:

I intend to purchase either of both of the following books. I do have

an

extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good
bedtime reading. The candidate books are:
1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA
Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)

I *had *both, but sold Heibel. I rarely sell textbooks (only one of two I
can think of in 2 decades). Heibel seems to sell from virtually nothing
(what I paid for mine), to over $1000. (I made 10 dB or so proffit on the
book??).

Dunsmore is quite advanced, and discusses a lot of things you can't do

with

affordable VNAs. I did notice a few typos. You might find an errata page.
There's a lot of emphasis on the time domain, which Joel done his PhD on.
You need pretty decent maths skills to follow it. I know the reviewer of
the book, and he loves lots of detailed maths.

Heibel is very superficial. It has colour photographs, but doesn't really
have much content. I'm a bit surprised that reviewer was keen on Heibel,

as

my maths is pretty crap, but I found the book lacking in much substance.

Dave

On Sat, 3 Sept 2022 at 04:27, Bruce <bruce@...> wrote:

I intend to purchase either of both of the following books. I do have an
extensive collection of notes and articles but figure I need some good
bedtime reading. The candidate books are:
1) Handbook of Microwave Component measurement with Advanced VNA
Techniques - (J.P. Dunsmore)
2) Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis - (M.Heibel)

I *had *both, but sold Heibel. I rarely sell textbooks (only one of two I
can think of in 2 decades). Heibel seems to sell from virtually nothing
(what I paid for mine), to over $1000. (I made 10 dB or so proffit on the
book??).

Dunsmore is quite advanced, and discusses a lot of things you can't do with
affordable VNAs. I did notice a few typos. You might find an errata page.
There's a lot of emphasis on the time domain, which Joel done his PhD on.
You need pretty decent maths skills to follow it. I know the reviewer of
the book, and he loves lots of detailed maths.

Heibel is very superficial. It has colour photographs, but doesn't really
have much content. I'm a bit surprised that reviewer was keen on Heibel, as
my maths is pretty crap, but I found the book lacking in much substance.

Dave

I just got a short email from him. He has seen or comments about typos on Amazon. I can ask next time I see him.
What page was it on...so I can find it quickly?? My book is at work so I can't check now.

Having written lots of documentation myself, I am always amazed at how I can read something multiple times and still not see some glaring error.? I can't imagine how much proofreading went into that very complex book...and they still missed a lot.? I guess that is what 2nd editions are for!

I just got a short email from him. He has seen or comments about typos on Amazon. I can ask next time I see him.
What page was it on...so I can find it quickly?? My book is at work so I can't check now.

Having written lots of documentation myself, I am always amazed at how I can read something multiple times and still not see some glaring error.? I can't imagine how much proofreading went into that very complex book...and they still missed a lot.? I guess that is what 2nd editions are for!