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Re: OT: Via plugging

Lothar baier
 

There are different types of thermal vias , for this kind the vias are actually filled with copper and then planarized on top , I have a bare EVB that uses this kind of vias and there are no holes only small bumbs on top and bottom , the PCB manufacturer I am using offers this type of via but the extra charge is quite high , if I order 100 boards it only raises the price per board by $1.25 but for proto board it nearly triples the price

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Sergey Kubushyn via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 3:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] OT: Via plugging

On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, Lothar baier wrote:

Usually those thermal vias are made something like 12mil diameter and NOT tented on the other side. That makes solder flow all the way into them but not flow out on the other side because of the surface tension. Nothing else is required and it won't do any noticeable difference if done.

It is CRITITCAL to have those thermal vias NOT tented on the other side and 10..12mil diameter is also critical to have them wick solder but not let it flow through on the other side. You might get some small bumps on the other side but no solder flow-through.

i am working on a circuit board design for a X-Band PA , the part is in a QFN package with a ground slug , i put vias in the ground slug as common for ground and thermal reasons and taped off the vias on the bottom side with capton tape to minimize? solder wicking ,? the problem however i run into is that the vias are not providing enough thermal conductivity to ensure the die not exceeding the max temperature ratings.
the apps engineer states that they recommend copper filled vias or using a coin and on the next round i can surely have the vias plugged but i am looking for a solution to salvage the prototype boards and evaluate the impact of plugged vias .
copper paste of course is available and used as a anti seize agent for car repair shops but the question is whether this kind of paste offers sufficient thermal properties and whether there are any concerns using this for a circuit board ?





---
*
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
*
Re: OT: Via plugging

Lothar baier
 

The problem with solder is that the thermal conductivity of solder sucks

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 3:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] OT: Via plugging

Could you fill them with solder without causing problems ???

Perhaps a low melting point solder ?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting Lothar baier <Lothar@...>:

i am working on a circuit board design for a X-Band PA , the part is
in a QFN package with a ground slug , i put vias in the ground slug as
common for ground and thermal reasons and taped off the vias on the
bottom side with capton tape to minimize? solder wicking ,? the
problem however i run into is that the vias are not providing enough
thermal conductivity to ensure the die not exceeding the max
temperature ratings.
the apps engineer states that they recommend copper filled vias or
using a coin and on the next round i can surely have the vias plugged
but i am looking for a solution to salvage the prototype boards and
evaluate the impact of plugged vias .
copper paste of course is available and used as a anti seize agent for
car repair shops but the question is whether this kind of paste offers
sufficient thermal properties and whether there are any concerns using
this for a circuit board ?
Re: OT: Via plugging

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Well, you don't have too many options at this point, so give it a try. You aren't going to be shipping these, I assume.

The obvious problem to watch out for is the electrical conductivity of the paste. The thermal properties are likely to be roughly similar to those of the standard thermal pastes that are sold specifically for heatsinks. The results may be considered a worse-than-worst-case test, so if the paste works, you can feel confident that copper-filled vias will work (and better).

In any case, good luck, Lothar!

--Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 6/1/2022 12:59, Lothar baier wrote:

i am working on a circuit board design for a X-Band PA , the part is in a QFN package with a ground slug , i put vias in the ground slug as common for ground and thermal reasons and taped off the vias on the bottom side with capton tape to minimize? solder wicking ,? the problem however i run into is that the vias are not providing enough thermal conductivity to ensure the die not exceeding the max temperature ratings.?
the apps engineer states that they recommend copper filled vias or using a coin and on the next round i can surely have the vias plugged but i am looking for a solution to salvage the prototype boards and evaluate the impact of plugged vias .
copper paste of course is available and used as a anti seize agent for car repair shops but the question is whether this kind of paste offers sufficient thermal properties and whether there are any concerns using this for a circuit board ?

Re: HP 8510B Service manual CLIP

 

I do have the 8510A schematics and I have tried to work with these. Power seems to be unchanged from 85101A to 85101B, but there seem to be a lot of changes in the digital cage.
Obviously, as already mentioned the bubble memory got replaced by EEPROM.
But as far as I could see, also the processor got an update.
And the IO card definitely uses different chips. So, no chance with the A schematics.

Best regards,
Tom DG8SAQ
Re: OT: Via plugging

 

On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, Lothar baier wrote:

Usually those thermal vias are made something like 12mil diameter and NOT
tented on the other side. That makes solder flow all the way into them but
not flow out on the other side because of the surface tension. Nothing else
is required and it won't do any noticeable difference if done.

It is CRITITCAL to have those thermal vias NOT tented on the other side and
10..12mil diameter is also critical to have them wick solder but not let it
flow through on the other side. You might get some small bumps on the other
side but no solder flow-through.

i am working on a circuit board design for a X-Band PA , the part is in a QFN package with a ground slug , i put vias in the ground slug as common for ground and thermal reasons and taped off the vias on the bottom side with capton tape to minimize? solder wicking ,? the problem however i run into is that the vias are not providing enough thermal conductivity to ensure the die not exceeding the max temperature ratings.
the apps engineer states that they recommend copper filled vias or using a coin and on the next round i can surely have the vias plugged but i am looking for a solution to salvage the prototype boards and evaluate the impact of plugged vias .
copper paste of course is available and used as a anti seize agent for car repair shops but the question is whether this kind of paste offers sufficient thermal properties and whether there are any concerns using this for a circuit board ?




---
*
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
*
Re: OT: Via plugging

 

Could you fill them with solder without causing problems ???

Perhaps a low melting point solder ?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting Lothar baier <Lothar@...>:

i am working on a circuit board design for a X-Band PA , the part is in a QFN package with a ground slug , i put vias in the ground slug as common for ground and thermal reasons and taped off the vias on the bottom side with capton tape to minimize? solder wicking ,? the problem however i run into is that the vias are not providing enough thermal conductivity to ensure the die not exceeding the max temperature ratings.
the apps engineer states that they recommend copper filled vias or using a coin and on the next round i can surely have the vias plugged but i am looking for a solution to salvage the prototype boards and evaluate the impact of plugged vias .
copper paste of course is available and used as a anti seize agent for car repair shops but the question is whether this kind of paste offers sufficient thermal properties and whether there are any concerns using this for a circuit board ?
OT: Via plugging

Lothar baier
 

i am working on a circuit board design for a X-Band PA , the part is in a QFN package with a ground slug , i put vias in the ground slug as common for ground and thermal reasons and taped off the vias on the bottom side with capton tape to minimize? solder wicking ,? the problem however i run into is that the vias are not providing enough thermal conductivity to ensure the die not exceeding the max temperature ratings.?
the apps engineer states that they recommend copper filled vias or using a coin and on the next round i can surely have the vias plugged but i am looking for a solution to salvage the prototype boards and evaluate the impact of plugged vias .
copper paste of course is available and used as a anti seize agent for car repair shops but the question is whether this kind of paste offers sufficient thermal properties and whether there are any concerns using this for a circuit board ?
Re: LackRack

 

They Lack ground conductivity and seismic protection.
Re: HP 8510B Service manual CLIP

 

I have a paper manual set for the 8510A - it covers both the 85101A and the 85102A - the 85102B as at most 3 differences depending on the particular model (either 1 or 3 cards are needed to convert an 85102A to a B version).

I have never looked for schematics particular to the replaced cards, but would be interested to know if anyone has them.

Major difference between the 85101A and B versions (as far as I know) is the exchange of bubble memory for e-prom memory (for the OS).

If anyone has any component level information about these cards, it would be a good idea to get it archived.

ANYONE HAVE ANYTHING - Updates to the 8510A CLIPs ????


Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting Lothar baier <Lothar@...>:

Are you sure ? all of the schematics that were available for the A I ever seen covered the 85102A part only and not the 85101 display only

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 12:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 8510B Service manual CLIP

There is much similarity between the A and B versions. The schematics for the A are available. Can you work from that?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "tom_iphi via groups.io" <iphi@...>:

Hi folks,

I have a broken 8510B display section that I'm trying to fix and I
have been chasing a schematic for a long time.
Has anyone spotted the mentioned B-supplement?
I know those display sections are said to be dirt cheap, but not so on
this side of the gread pond (Germany).

Wayne,

would you please share your reverse engineering results with me? I'd
highly appreciate it.
This could help a lot with my repair efforts.

Thanks and best regards,
Tom
Re: HP 8510B Service manual CLIP

 

Quoting Lothar baier <Lothar@...>:

Are you sure ? all of the schematics that were available for the A I ever seen covered the 85102A part only and not the 85101 display only

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 12:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 8510B Service manual CLIP

There is much similarity between the A and B versions. The schematics for the A are available. Can you work from that?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "tom_iphi via groups.io" <iphi@...>:

Hi folks,

I have a broken 8510B display section that I'm trying to fix and I
have been chasing a schematic for a long time.
Has anyone spotted the mentioned B-supplement?
I know those display sections are said to be dirt cheap, but not so on
this side of the gread pond (Germany).

Wayne,

would you please share your reverse engineering results with me? I'd
highly appreciate it.
This could help a lot with my repair efforts.

Thanks and best regards,
Tom
Re: LackRack

 

And if you find you need more U unit space, stack your lack.
Re: HP 8510B Service manual CLIP

Lothar baier
 

Are you sure ? all of the schematics that were available for the A I ever seen covered the 85102A part only and not the 85101 display only

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 12:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 8510B Service manual CLIP

There is much similarity between the A and B versions. The schematics for the A are available. Can you work from that?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "tom_iphi via groups.io" <iphi@...>:

Hi folks,

I have a broken 8510B display section that I'm trying to fix and I
have been chasing a schematic for a long time.
Has anyone spotted the mentioned B-supplement?
I know those display sections are said to be dirt cheap, but not so on
this side of the gread pond (Germany).

Wayne,

would you please share your reverse engineering results with me? I'd
highly appreciate it.
This could help a lot with my repair efforts.

Thanks and best regards,
Tom
Re: E4407B strange peak shapes at low RBW

 

Hi Sandra,
What is a NSCOM reset?
Do you mean factory reset / preset on the machine itself or some command?
Re: HP 8510B Service manual CLIP

 

There is much similarity between the A and B versions. The schematics for the A are available. Can you work from that?

Cheers!

Bruce

Quoting "tom_iphi via groups.io" <iphi@...>:

Hi folks,

I have a broken 8510B display section that I'm trying to fix and I have been chasing a schematic for a long time.
Has anyone spotted the mentioned B-supplement?
I know those display sections are said to be dirt cheap, but not so on this side of the gread pond (Germany).

Wayne,

would you please share your reverse engineering results with me? I'd highly appreciate it.
This could help a lot with my repair efforts.

Thanks and best regards,
Tom
Re: E4407B strange peak shapes at low RBW

Lothar baier
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

The problem isn¡¯t exactly new ,? back when the ESG generators came out we had to buy a bunch of equipment including a 89440A and E4419B because the service software only supported those and actually did a IDN to ensure that the right equipment was there ,? if I remember correctly you also had to have all the equipment connected and turned on even if you did a sub test that didn¡¯t require all the equipment !

Effectively this gives agilent full control over the service life of their equipment and who is servicing them , by limiting the access to only a few big labs the small independent labs are shut out as much as individual users so the big guys can charge exorbitant $?

Case in point is that eventually indididuals wont be able to mess with later model equipment because even if you manage to find and repair the problem you wont be able to do the adjustments

?

?

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Richard Parrish via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 11:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] E4407B strange peak shapes at low RBW

?

Keysight will no longer sell the licenses for the N7800A unless you are a large company and want to do your own calibrations but the catch is that you HAVE to use the equipment that's written into the software.? It is a required list of equipment, not a suggested list which leaves all but a very rare few who are able to do that. ? The cost of the required equipment, just the minimum runs about $100K "used" and that will allow you to do only a limited calibration on most pieces of equipment. ? Everything these days is in software and very little can be done manually anymore due to the use of A/D's and D/A's and signal processing.? Those allow for great specs but at the expense of allowing for manual calibrations.

You pretty?much have to make the decision of whether or not you need what the later generation equipment can give you or do you want the ability to be able to do your own calibrations.? Of course cost is a huge consideration also.

?

I pretty much designed my lab around the ability to do the repairs and adjustments myself and have been happy with that decision.? There's a LOT of good equipment out there.

Richard Parrish

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Lothar baier via groups.io <Lothar@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 9:02 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] E4407B strange peak shapes at low RBW

?

HP used discrete filters for the IF filters , those filters are constructed using multiple poles that are coupled and each pole is adjusted individually to form a specific filter shape and bandwidth as a result if one pole is off than you get a funny shape like the one you are seeing !

On the older analyzers (855x, 8566/68, 70K, 8590¡­..? the adjustments were done manually , you needed to build of some shorting clips or cables and follow the instructions on the manual and usually this worked quite well .

However on the later model analyzers HP switched from manual adjustments and performance tests and providing HP basic test/alignment software free of charge to using a integrated test environment (N7800A )? with individual test modules for each analyzer family (N7811A for the ESA Series )? , this software requires a paid license however !? I am not aware of any alternate ways to do the adjustments however richard is the authority on this and he might know

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of hardyhansendk via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 6:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] E4407B strange peak shapes at low RBW

?

Hi

Are you using an external test signal?-it seems so.

First i would make a self alignment with the inbuildt? 50 Mhz cal signal.

Hardy

?

Fra: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] P? vegne af Richard Parrish
Sendt: 31. maj 2022 18:57
Til: [email protected]
Emne: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] E4407B strange peak shapes at low RBW

?

You will need to go in and adjust your Xtal and LC filters.? Not hard, just a pain.

Richard

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Kalle Kempe via groups.io <kalle.kempe@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 11:30 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] E4407B strange peak shapes at low RBW

?

Hello Everyone,

I am working on my E4407B and found that it has funny peak shape when I use low Resolution Bandwidths.
The shape is not collected into one peak, instead its smeared as in the pictures.
The bad shapes occur at RBW 300kHz, 100kHz. I don't think its there at 30kHz, but I could be wrong..
Anybody have any clue?



Best regards

?

Virusfri.

Re: HP8640B no rf out

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Another plastic-disk finger contact symptom and cause.? This is the disk on the back of the step attenuator.

?

SYMPTOM: Intermittent: LEVEL mode meter reads zero, RF still output.

CAUSE: A1A1S1 Meter Atten Sw (pins 5/6/16) contact broke loose.? See SS13.

ACTION: Reattach with JB Weld.? Also blob up the other two contacts that haven¡¯t broken yet.

NOTE: Do not need to remove A1A1.? Unmount pot using mini-ratchet and #1 Phillips bit.

NOTE: Inner contact kills RF and meter.? Outer contact goofs up meter range annunciators when meter is in LEVEL mode, probably lights 0-3 regardless of attenuator.

?

JFYI

Dave Wise

?

PS: Here are titles and URLs of some threads discussing this.

?

HP8640B Gear Repair - /g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/topic/24788359

8565A in process - /g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/topic/24800901

HP 8558 Missing contact fingers ?- /g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/topic/24811643

Need Advice on Repairing 8640B Switch Contacts - /g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/topic/24814127

HP 8640B range switch fingers and late manual - /g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/topic/24815391

Wanting to buy rotor switch contact fingers that fall off in vintage HP Spectrum Analyzers ?- /g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/topic/24815512

spectrum HP 8558b good but missing part ?- /g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/topic/33132015

HP 8558B spectrum analyzer plug-in rotary switch - /g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/topic/29340855

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of nigel adams via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2022 2:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP8640B no rf out

?

A very similar style of these ¡®finger¡¯ contact is found in the 8011/12/13 pulse generators which can be found quite cheaply¡­. How do i know¡­ just repaired one¡­ works lovely.



On 28 May 2022, at 22:01, n4buq <n4buq@...> wrote:

?

Other HP switches use those wipers.? I think some of the slide switches on the 8640B use them but I think there are others too.

?

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ

?

From: "Donald Prins" <dyhprins@...>
To: "HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2022 10:06:01 AM
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP8640B no rf out

Hi Ellud,

Can you tell me where one can obtain those wipers? I have a HP8640B that is missing 3 in total on the FM/RANGE switches. Your help will be much appreciated.

Donald?
PE1AHJ

Re: E4407B strange peak shapes at low RBW

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Keysight will no longer sell the licenses for the N7800A unless you are a large company and want to do your own calibrations but the catch is that you HAVE to use the equipment that's written into the software.? It is a required list of equipment, not a suggested list which leaves all but a very rare few who are able to do that. ? The cost of the required equipment, just the minimum runs about $100K "used" and that will allow you to do only a limited calibration on most pieces of equipment. ? Everything these days is in software and very little can be done manually anymore due to the use of A/D's and D/A's and signal processing.? Those allow for great specs but at the expense of allowing for manual calibrations.
You pretty?much have to make the decision of whether or not you need what the later generation equipment can give you or do you want the ability to be able to do your own calibrations.? Of course cost is a huge consideration also.

I pretty much designed my lab around the ability to do the repairs and adjustments myself and have been happy with that decision.? There's a LOT of good equipment out there.
Richard Parrish

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Lothar baier via groups.io <Lothar@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 9:02 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] E4407B strange peak shapes at low RBW
?

HP used discrete filters for the IF filters , those filters are constructed using multiple poles that are coupled and each pole is adjusted individually to form a specific filter shape and bandwidth as a result if one pole is off than you get a funny shape like the one you are seeing !

On the older analyzers (855x, 8566/68, 70K, 8590¡­..? the adjustments were done manually , you needed to build of some shorting clips or cables and follow the instructions on the manual and usually this worked quite well .

However on the later model analyzers HP switched from manual adjustments and performance tests and providing HP basic test/alignment software free of charge to using a integrated test environment (N7800A )? with individual test modules for each analyzer family (N7811A for the ESA Series )? , this software requires a paid license however !? I am not aware of any alternate ways to do the adjustments however richard is the authority on this and he might know

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of hardyhansendk via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 6:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] E4407B strange peak shapes at low RBW

?

Hi

Are you using an external test signal?-it seems so.

First i would make a self alignment with the inbuildt? 50 Mhz cal signal.

Hardy

?

Fra: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] P? vegne af Richard Parrish
Sendt: 31. maj 2022 18:57
Til: [email protected]
Emne: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] E4407B strange peak shapes at low RBW

?

You will need to go in and adjust your Xtal and LC filters.? Not hard, just a pain.

Richard

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Kalle Kempe via groups.io <kalle.kempe@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 11:30 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] E4407B strange peak shapes at low RBW

?

Hello Everyone,

I am working on my E4407B and found that it has funny peak shape when I use low Resolution Bandwidths.
The shape is not collected into one peak, instead its smeared as in the pictures.
The bad shapes occur at RBW 300kHz, 100kHz. I don't think its there at 30kHz, but I could be wrong..
Anybody have any clue?



Best regards

?

Virusfri.

Re: 4395A and other project units FS

 

Hi Lothar,

Is the 4395A?still available?

If Yes. Can you send it to Switzerland?

Best regards
Rico
Re: Keithley 236 firmware version A10

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hi, I finally found a link on EEVblog and was able to find and install the new firmware successfully. Thanks!

?

?

De?: [email protected] <[email protected]> De la part de Rico Sonderegger
·¡²Ô±¹´Ç²â¨¦?: 1 juin 2022 05:07
??: [email protected]
Objet?: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Keithley 236 firmware version A10

?

Hi Yves,

I own a 237 (high voltage version). These devices share the same firmware. Only a resistor on the mainboard decides whether the 236 or the 237 version.

?

I have the A10 version and can send it to you if you want.


On the mainboard there is a second device which is also marked with a firmware version (236 801 A10).
But I don't know if you also need it. Is an EEPROM ev. are there only the calibration data stored.

In an emergency, I also have this data and can send it to you.



Many greetings Rico
hp 8407A Service Cable

 

All,

Would anyone have a service cable for the 8407A Network Analyzer for the 8412A, 8413A ,and 8414A/B plugins?

By looking at the number of pins in the Amphenol connector, it appears to be the same as the 11592-60018 for the 141T Spectrum Analyzer, but shorter.

Cheers,

Christopher

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