-----Message d'origine-----
De : [email protected] <[email protected]> De la part de Lothar baier
Envoyé : 21 mars 2022 19:15
? : [email protected]
Objet : Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM firmware required

If I remember correctly than the main difference between the B and C was that it had a YIG filter added to produce a cleaner output signal

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Yves Tardif via groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 6:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM firmware required

You are probably right, I did not find a version B for this plugin, but there is a version C that seems to be slightly different (higher RF level), we can assume that the V9 firmware is maybe for this version of the plugin.
The 4.0 version works fine, just that I like to update the firmware when possible.
Thanks for your comments.

-Yves

-----Message d'origine-----
De : [email protected] <[email protected]> De la part de Lothar baier Envoyé : 21 mars 2022 17:37 ? : [email protected]
Objet : Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM firmware required

Check the manual backdating changes to see if there was any change in the CPU or other boards , sometimes HP upgraded processor boards due to obsolence of certain parts used and as a result newer firmware sometimes was not compatible to older CPU boards

-----Message d'origine-----
De : [email protected] <[email protected]> De la part de Lothar baier
Envoyé : 21 mars 2022 17:37
? : [email protected]
Objet : Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM firmware required

Check the manual backdating changes to see if there was any change in the CPU or other boards , sometimes HP upgraded processor boards due to obsolence of certain parts used and as a result newer firmware sometimes was not compatible to older CPU boards

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of DB via groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 5:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Question about MMIC amp design for HP 8601a output replacement

?

Hi David,

Thanks, I had seen that design on the ARF forum and was originally considering going that route but then had trouble finding the BFG35 transistors.? I was thinking that since the newer higher output MMIC's were readily available it might be a better/simpler design to go with the MMIC and reduce the parts count quite a bit.? Hopefully the RF choke and biasing wont complicate this too much for the lower frequencies.

Thanks
DB


"This design may help with avoiding re-inventing the wheel:

Hi,

I've read that it may be possible to use a MMIC amp to replace the failed hybrid output amps in the HP 8601a sweep generator.? I have some MiniCircuits GALI MMIC amps and wanted to try one of these.?

I am using AppCAD for the design calcs for blocking caps but have a question about the RF choke that is in series with the 200 ohm resistor on the bias power lead.
The MiniCircuits data says the impedance of the choke should be ~500ohms at the minimum operating freq (which is 100khz for the HP 8601a).? This is giving me a value of 795uH for 500ohm impedance.

The other limitation for the choke is the SRF self resonant freq.? The chokes that I'm finding in the 795uH range all seem to have SRF much lower than the max 110Mhz freq of the 8601a.? (most of the 800uH chokes I've found have SRF around 20-50Mhz).

I would appreciate any assistance on selecting the proper choke value that will be adequate for 100khz to 110Mhz.

Thanks
DB

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dave Brown
Sent: 21 March 2022 22:22
To: [email protected]
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP 180 series scope CRTs

I have a 182T that needs a new CRT.
Wondering how similar the electrical specs of the CRTs are in the 180 series
as I have a good CRT from an old 180A that (aside from the obvious
mechanical aspects) might be able to be pressed into service. The 182T
uses a 5083-3970 and the 180A has a 5083-0952. The 182A uses a 5083-2852 and
the 182C uses a 5083- 3952. So the question is - apart from screen sizes
and phosphor differences, how similar-or otherwise- are all these jugs?
Is there a source of electrical specs for these CRTs anywhere that could be
used for comparison purposes?
DaveB, NZ

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 05:50 PM, Lothar baier wrote:

The GALI-74 doesn’t produce enough power , the spec is 20dBm but since this is P1Db you need to be at least at 21dBm , the GALI-84 would work , I looked earlier and found the CMA-84 , not sure why the GALI-84 didn’t show in my search ,? the MAR-8 seems to make a good driver .

It will take me a day to download the models for the GALI and MAR and run a few simuations .

What you have to watch out for on gain blocks is that they usually have a lot of excess gain at low frequencies which can get you in trouble with stability , stability can also be impacted improperly designed bias networks as well and improper grounding ( need a lot of vias under the part to keep your ground inductance low ) most of the time companies like mini circuits don’t provide S-Parameters below 10MHz which makes assessing the gain at low frequencies without a simulator even harder !

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of DB via groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Question about MMIC amp design for HP 8601a output replacement

?

Lothar, Jim,

Thanks for the thoughts about the inductors in series, I wasn't sure if this would create any undesirable effects or oscillations.

Lothar-Thank you for offering to run some simulations, here is what I have so far:

• The HP 8601a original output module contained two amps cascaded with 50 ohm output impedance..
• The first amp had 30db gain and the final amp had 22db gain.?
• The input signal to this module has adjustable amplitude of -40dbm to -30dbm signal with a freq range of 100khz to 110Mhz.
• The final amp output should be +10dbm to +20dbm (based on the -40 to -30dbm input).
• The supply voltage to the module is +20 volts.? The 20V power connection to this module has a 2.2uH choke in the power connection to the original HP amp.

I have on-hand a few GALI-74+, GALI-84+, RAM-8A+, and MAR-8A+, and I have a few MMIC strip line pcbs to construct this.?

From the Mini-Circuits specs, it seemed like the GALI-74+ might be a good fit for the output amp since it had 19.2dbm output level and a gain of 25db.?

• The GALI-74+ requires bias current of 80ma at 4.8 Volts. For the 20volt supply, this showed a bias resistor of 200ohms,

For the first amp, was considering the GALI-84+. It also has a gain of ~25db.?

• The GALI-84+ requires bias current of 100ma at 5.8 Volts.? For the 20volt supply, this showed a bias resistor of 150 ohms,

I appreciate your help with this design, please let me know if there are other parameters that I need to send you.

Thanks
DB

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Yves Tardif via groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM firmware required

Hi,

I downloaded version 9 for the 83595A plugin on the KO4BB site as suggested, but there is a problem, this firmware is not recognized by the plugin.
I had the version 3 of the firmware, corresponding to the following numbers: 83595-80001 for U1 and 83595-80002 for U2.
The version 9 would correspond to the numbers: 83595-0019 and 83595-80020.

I found on the same site but in a different directory, the version 4 of the firmware which works very well: 83595-80003 and 83595-80004.

If I do a search on the Keysight site, it is possible to find by the part numbers, the version 3 and 4 of the firmware, but nothing more.

Has anyone already installed a version more recent than version 4 on this plugin?

-Yves

-----Message d'origine-----
De : [email protected] <[email protected]> De la part de Dave McGuire Envoyé : 18 mars 2022 22:09 ? : [email protected]
Objet : Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM firmware required


If you don't need version 7 specifically, version 9 for 83595 is available from the KO4BB archive:




-Dave

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 3:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Protecting Equipment

?

Years ago I had this discussion with a PhD student ,? his argument was that the limiter doesn’t matter unless it is triggered so I set up a experiment doing a power sweep of the limiter and capturing the output spectrum for each point ,? he was quite surprised

?

?

Lothar,

?

Correct. The same thing happens with Zeners below 6.2V and TVS Diodes (way too much Capacitance for RF Applications).

?

Look at the Breakover point of the RF Limiter (or TVS), it is a curve. Its Impedance changes below the breakover voltage as current flows through it and approaches the knee. If it is not specified, it can be obtained via a Curve Tracer or manually generated I-V Curves that you can produce with a simple Power Supply UUT and Resistance Standard or Resistance Decade.

?

Many Signal Integrity issues develop when they are not used properly and the curve is well understood.

?

Ross

?

?

What many people seem to forget is the fact that the non linear behavior of a limiter kicks in way before the limiter is actually “triggered” ?although the distortions are not as bad

?

?

Tom,

?

That is also why MIL-STD-461 CE102 requires a 20dB Pad on the signal path from the LISN to the Receiver. They do not recommend a Limiter due to non-linearities that Lothar points out.

?

Limiters can really hurt the Noise Figure of a receiver input at well.

?

Ross

?

?

Limiters are very commonly recommended for Conducted Immunity testing in EMC labs where the Spec An input comes from the Line Impedance Stabilization Network (LISN) because the turn on/off transients can be quite high. The levels expected to be measured typically should be much less than the distortion level of the limiter. The recommended limiter in this case actually has an intentional 10 dB insertion loss.

?

?

?

A few words about limiters ,

Generally limiters are used in systems to protect receivers usually in RADAR or EW applications ,? in test systems the use of limiters s usually frowned upon ( with very few exceptions)? and for good reason !

First of there is a cost penalty that is not insignificant , the cost for a connectorized limiter usually starts at about $600 and can go up into the $2K range .

Limiters also degrade VSWR and add additional system loss .

But the by far biggest problem is that limiters are non linear devices and as such excellent harmonics generators , harmonics will start to occur before the limiter hits the hard threshold and worsens as the power increases so if you put one in front a spectrum analyzer you have to be cautious not to end up with tst results that are worse than they actually are

?

?

-----Message d'origine-----
De : [email protected] <[email protected]> De la part de Dave McGuire
Envoyé : 18 mars 2022 22:09
? : [email protected]
Objet : Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP83595A/B (HP 8350) ROM firmware required


If you don't need version 7 specifically, version 9 for 83595 is available from the KO4BB archive:




-Dave

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of si_emi_01 via groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Protecting Equipment

?

Lothar,

?

Correct. The same thing happens with Zeners below 6.2V and TVS Diodes (way too much Capacitance for RF Applications).

?

Look at the Breakover point of the RF Limiter (or TVS), it is a curve. Its Impedance changes below the breakover voltage as current flows through it and approaches the knee. If it is not specified, it can be obtained via a Curve Tracer or manually generated I-V Curves that you can produce with a simple Power Supply UUT and Resistance Standard or Resistance Decade.

?

Many Signal Integrity issues develop when they are not used properly and the curve is well understood.

?

Ross

?

?

What many people seem to forget is the fact that the non linear behavior of a limiter kicks in way before the limiter is actually “triggered” ?although the distortions are not as bad

?

?

Tom,

?

That is also why MIL-STD-461 CE102 requires a 20dB Pad on the signal path from the LISN to the Receiver. They do not recommend a Limiter due to non-linearities that Lothar points out.

?

Limiters can really hurt the Noise Figure of a receiver input at well.

?

Ross

?

?

Limiters are very commonly recommended for Conducted Immunity testing in EMC labs where the Spec An input comes from the Line Impedance Stabilization Network (LISN) because the turn on/off transients can be quite high. The levels expected to be measured typically should be much less than the distortion level of the limiter. The recommended limiter in this case actually has an intentional 10 dB insertion loss.

?

?

?

A few words about limiters ,

Generally limiters are used in systems to protect receivers usually in RADAR or EW applications ,? in test systems the use of limiters s usually frowned upon ( with very few exceptions)? and for good reason !

First of there is a cost penalty that is not insignificant , the cost for a connectorized limiter usually starts at about $600 and can go up into the $2K range .

Limiters also degrade VSWR and add additional system loss .

But the by far biggest problem is that limiters are non linear devices and as such excellent harmonics generators , harmonics will start to occur before the limiter hits the hard threshold and worsens as the power increases so if you put one in front a spectrum analyzer you have to be cautious not to end up with tst results that are worse than they actually are

?

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of DB via groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 2:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Question about MMIC amp design for HP 8601a output replacement

?

Hi,

I've read that it may be possible to use a MMIC amp to replace the failed hybrid output amps in the HP 8601a sweep generator.? I have some MiniCircuits GALI MMIC amps and wanted to try one of these.?

I am using AppCAD for the design calcs for blocking caps but have a question about the RF choke that is in series with the 200 ohm resistor on the bias power lead.
The MiniCircuits data says the impedance of the choke should be ~500ohms at the minimum operating freq (which is 100khz for the HP 8601a).? This is giving me a value of 795uH for 500ohm impedance.

The other limitation for the choke is the SRF self resonant freq.? The chokes that I'm finding in the 795uH range all seem to have SRF much lower than the max 110Mhz freq of the 8601a.? (most of the 800uH chokes I've found have SRF around 20-50Mhz).

I would appreciate any assistance on selecting the proper choke value that will be adequate for 100khz to 110Mhz.

Thanks
DB

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Lothar baier
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 2:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Protecting Equipment

?

What many people seem to forget is the fact that the non linear behavior of a limiter kicks in way before the limiter is actually “triggered” ?although the distortions are not as bad

?

?

Tom,

?

That is also why MIL-STD-461 CE102 requires a 20dB Pad on the signal path from the LISN to the Receiver. They do not recommend a Limiter due to non-linearities that Lothar points out.

?

Limiters can really hurt the Noise Figure of a receiver input at well.

?

Ross

?

?

Limiters are very commonly recommended for Conducted Immunity testing in EMC labs where the Spec An input comes from the Line Impedance Stabilization Network (LISN) because the turn on/off transients can be quite high. The levels expected to be measured typically should be much less than the distortion level of the limiter. The recommended limiter in this case actually has an intentional 10 dB insertion loss.

?

?

?

A few words about limiters ,

Generally limiters are used in systems to protect receivers usually in RADAR or EW applications ,? in test systems the use of limiters s usually frowned upon ( with very few exceptions)? and for good reason !

First of there is a cost penalty that is not insignificant , the cost for a connectorized limiter usually starts at about $600 and can go up into the $2K range .

Limiters also degrade VSWR and add additional system loss .

But the by far biggest problem is that limiters are non linear devices and as such excellent harmonics generators , harmonics will start to occur before the limiter hits the hard threshold and worsens as the power increases so if you put one in front a spectrum analyzer you have to be cautious not to end up with tst results that are worse than they actually are

?

?