开云体育

Date

Re: Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

 

开云体育

Actually, the clock risetime should be a small as possible to minimize the creation of jitter and wander by the digital slicer. ?That is the mechanism that converts amplitude distortion in to phase noise in digital circuits.?

I am pretty sure that HP took care of such basic thing. Probably, you are seeing a distortion introduced by your measurement.

Best, Francesco K5URG

??


On Mar 5, 2022, at 16:52, Tom Lee <tomlee@...> wrote:

? Probably the easiest way to explain it is that harmonic distortion makes every cycle look the same. Distorted, but the same. So the time between zero-crossings doesn't move around in that case.

-- Cheers,
Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 3/5/2022 14:43, Jim Ford wrote:
Yeah, it didn't sit quite right with me, either, distortion creating phase noise.? But I don't have the academic chops to explain it like you, Tom.? Thanks for weighing in.?

Jim Ford



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device


-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Lee <tomlee@...>
Date: 3/5/22 2:21 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

Actually, not quite. Harmonic distortion does not generate phase noise (the integer relation of harmonics means that the zero-crossings do not undergo modulations). You need extra (and somewhat special) ingredients for distortions to produce phase noise.

Cheers,
Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 3/5/2022 13:14, Jinxie wrote:
Thanks, Matt. I wouldn't have thought it would make enough difference either - BUT I guess any distortion of a pure sine wave generates phase noise which isn't exactly going to help, so who knows?



Re: Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

 

开云体育

It often takes genius to know what to throw away, what to include, and what to keep throwing away.

Harvey


On 3/5/2022 6:14 PM, Jim Ford wrote:

Didn't Albert Einstein say something like Everything should be made as simple as possible? but no simpler.? I always figured he was making a joke.

Jim



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device


-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Lee <tomlee@...>
Date: 3/5/22 2:52 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

Probably the easiest way to explain it is that harmonic distortion makes every cycle look the same. Distorted, but the same. So the time between zero-crossings doesn't move around in that case.

-- Cheers,
Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 3/5/2022 14:43, Jim Ford wrote:
Yeah, it didn't sit quite right with me, either, distortion creating phase noise.? But I don't have the academic chops to explain it like you, Tom.? Thanks for weighing in.?

Jim Ford



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device


-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Lee <tomlee@...>
Date: 3/5/22 2:21 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

Actually, not quite. Harmonic distortion does not generate phase noise (the integer relation of harmonics means that the zero-crossings do not undergo modulations). You need extra (and somewhat special) ingredients for distortions to produce phase noise.

Cheers,
Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 3/5/2022 13:14, Jinxie wrote:
Thanks, Matt. I wouldn't have thought it would make enough difference either - BUT I guess any distortion of a pure sine wave generates phase noise which isn't exactly going to help, so who knows?



Re: Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

 

开云体育

If the system is completely digital (and many are), like FM modulation, all you care about are the zero crossings.? If those are not the same time interval, you have a problem.? However, should the waveform sampled be a square wave, sine wave, triangle wave, etc... if all you care about are the zero crossings, then the actual waveform is irrelevant unless it messes up the period of the waveform.?

Harvey


On 3/5/2022 5:43 PM, Jim Ford wrote:

Yeah, it didn't sit quite right with me, either, distortion creating phase noise.? But I don't have the academic chops to explain it like you, Tom.? Thanks for weighing in.?

Jim Ford



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device


-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Lee <tomlee@...>
Date: 3/5/22 2:21 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

Actually, not quite. Harmonic distortion does not generate phase noise (the integer relation of harmonics means that the zero-crossings do not undergo modulations). You need extra (and somewhat special) ingredients for distortions to produce phase noise.

Cheers,
Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 3/5/2022 13:14, Jinxie wrote:
Thanks, Matt. I wouldn't have thought it would make enough difference either - BUT I guess any distortion of a pure sine wave generates phase noise which isn't exactly going to help, so who knows?


Re: Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

 

Thanks for all the suggestions here, guys. Getting really late here now in my part of the world so have to vanish for several hours now til the morrow. See y'all then.


Re: HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

 

Yes, when I get into the switch, I will either take it to my work's clean room or one of our ESD benches. Some CW Measurements forthcoming. I forgot that I have my Millivac RF Millivolt meter downstairs. Need to look at the derating curves for this frequency, but it should be able to give me a good relative reading on a sudden loss of power up at 4 - 6 GHz.

Rich

On Saturday, March 5, 2022, 07:16:43 PM EST, Lothar baier <lothar@...> wrote:


Try to find a cheap working 85047A ,? it uses the same inerts as the 8753D/E/ES including the solid state switch and you get 2 couplers as added bonus .

?

Take one word of caution though ,? when handling the switch use a ESD mat and wriststrap or at least put some esd caps or terminations on the SMA connectors ,? those suckers are really sensitive to ESD

?

Sent from for Windows

?


From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Rich Miller via groups.io <av8torrich@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 6:02:40 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?
?
Yes, I am leaning this way (switch being the issue). I think it could also be that I was running a bunch of two port calibrations using a Agilent 85093 this morning (testing eCal out). I had some averaging on, 1601 Points, and 300KHz of IF B/W Set. Needless to say there was a lot of switching going on today. Let me check the power output now, and then flip it over and pray that one of the connectors on the switch is loose.

Looks like the parts hunt is likely on!

Rich

On Saturday, March 5, 2022, 06:55:27 PM EST, Lothar baier <lothar@...> wrote:


The reversing switches are notorious for failures especially if a unit is used in a environment that is not ESD protected .? what you can also do and you have to be cautious if you do this is to remove the switch , remove the hardline from the switch to coupler port 1 and connect the coupler directly to the source , if your trace is consistent then you definatly have a bad switch !

?

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: Rich Miller via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 5:47 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

?

Hi Lothar:

?

It just started failing Port 1 Test. I was doing this just as this email came in. It is failing it consistently. I do not have a power meter, but I can take a look with my Spectrum Analyzer to see if there are power fluctuations at 3GHz. This problem seems to focus at frequencies higher than 3GHz.?

?

Once I have a look at the output power, I will open and have a look. This is a new problem, as I never saw this before.

?

Rich

?

On Saturday, March 5, 2022, 06:38:56 PM EST, Lothar baier <lothar@...> wrote:

?

?

If the S11response changes when you switch back and forth than this would point towards a repeatability issue with the solid state switch the fact that this changes with temperature would also point towards this direction , so here are a few things to try :

?

  1. Connect a short to port 1 ,? go to the service menu there is a op check for port 1 and 2 , run the op check several time first for port 1 then port 2 then go back to port 1 and so on , see if it passes consistently or if there is a failure
  2. If you have a power meter connect it to port 1 , change the analyzer to CW and a frequency close to the upper end (3 or 6GHz), set power to 0dBm and then switch back and forth between S11 and S22 measurement and see if the power changes
  3. Open the unit and check the hardline connetions , make sure the nuts are tight

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: Rich Miller via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 5:24 PM
To: HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

?

All:

?

?

I have an issue with S11 (Port 1). It showed it's head now that I am running two port calibrations, thus I have not detected it just yet. My hunch is I have a problem with the switch, but not the Bridge. Here is what I am observing:

?

1. Upon boot up I get a good/normal S11 RL Response into a good 50 Ohm Load. This Condition will persist until I do one of the steps below.

?

2. If I switch to Port 2 (i.e. S22 Measurement), and then back to Port 1 the S11 Response has gone nutty (See Attached Picture).?

?

3. I have noticed, that if I depress the S11 MEAS multiple times, the S11 RL Response returns to normal.?

?

4. If you look at the enclosed picture, I have captured what I refer to as a normal S11 response, which I saved to memory (Smooth), and what it looks like after pressing S11 again (Wild variations in response).

?

I have noticed there is a stark difference between instrument, cold and warm on S11. I do not however see this behavior our of any of the Port 2 Measurements regardless of temperature. Is there anywhere else this could be coming from other than the Solid State Switch, or am I way off base in my thinking here??

?

?

Rich?

?

?

Inline image

?

?


Re: Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

 

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 03:50 PM, Jinxie wrote:
@Ozan
Yes, I did mention further up the thread about that which I guess you must have missed. PLL lights 1 and 3 are ON, but I can't see a LED for PLL2.
------
PLL2 unlock signal is on A10A6 module, test point marked as "HUL2". I believe +5V means unlocked, 0V locked. Although I can't test to be sure about the polarity.

Ozan


Re: HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

Lothar baier
 

开云体育

Try to find a cheap working 85047A ,? it uses the same inerts as the 8753D/E/ES including the solid state switch and you get 2 couplers as added bonus .

?

Take one word of caution though ,? when handling the switch use a ESD mat and wriststrap or at least put some esd caps or terminations on the SMA connectors ,? those suckers are really sensitive to ESD

?

Sent from for Windows

?


From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Rich Miller via groups.io <av8torrich@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 6:02:40 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?
?
Yes, I am leaning this way (switch being the issue). I think it could also be that I was running a bunch of two port calibrations using a Agilent 85093 this morning (testing eCal out). I had some averaging on, 1601 Points, and 300KHz of IF B/W Set. Needless to say there was a lot of switching going on today. Let me check the power output now, and then flip it over and pray that one of the connectors on the switch is loose.

Looks like the parts hunt is likely on!

Rich

On Saturday, March 5, 2022, 06:55:27 PM EST, Lothar baier <lothar@...> wrote:


The reversing switches are notorious for failures especially if a unit is used in a environment that is not ESD protected .? what you can also do and you have to be cautious if you do this is to remove the switch , remove the hardline from the switch to coupler port 1 and connect the coupler directly to the source , if your trace is consistent then you definatly have a bad switch !

?

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: Rich Miller via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 5:47 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

?

Hi Lothar:

?

It just started failing Port 1 Test. I was doing this just as this email came in. It is failing it consistently. I do not have a power meter, but I can take a look with my Spectrum Analyzer to see if there are power fluctuations at 3GHz. This problem seems to focus at frequencies higher than 3GHz.?

?

Once I have a look at the output power, I will open and have a look. This is a new problem, as I never saw this before.

?

Rich

?

On Saturday, March 5, 2022, 06:38:56 PM EST, Lothar baier <lothar@...> wrote:

?

?

If the S11response changes when you switch back and forth than this would point towards a repeatability issue with the solid state switch the fact that this changes with temperature would also point towards this direction , so here are a few things to try :

?

  1. Connect a short to port 1 ,? go to the service menu there is a op check for port 1 and 2 , run the op check several time first for port 1 then port 2 then go back to port 1 and so on , see if it passes consistently or if there is a failure
  2. If you have a power meter connect it to port 1 , change the analyzer to CW and a frequency close to the upper end (3 or 6GHz), set power to 0dBm and then switch back and forth between S11 and S22 measurement and see if the power changes
  3. Open the unit and check the hardline connetions , make sure the nuts are tight

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: Rich Miller via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 5:24 PM
To: HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

?

All:

?

?

I have an issue with S11 (Port 1). It showed it's head now that I am running two port calibrations, thus I have not detected it just yet. My hunch is I have a problem with the switch, but not the Bridge. Here is what I am observing:

?

1. Upon boot up I get a good/normal S11 RL Response into a good 50 Ohm Load. This Condition will persist until I do one of the steps below.

?

2. If I switch to Port 2 (i.e. S22 Measurement), and then back to Port 1 the S11 Response has gone nutty (See Attached Picture).?

?

3. I have noticed, that if I depress the S11 MEAS multiple times, the S11 RL Response returns to normal.?

?

4. If you look at the enclosed picture, I have captured what I refer to as a normal S11 response, which I saved to memory (Smooth), and what it looks like after pressing S11 again (Wild variations in response).

?

I have noticed there is a stark difference between instrument, cold and warm on S11. I do not however see this behavior our of any of the Port 2 Measurements regardless of temperature. Is there anywhere else this could be coming from other than the Solid State Switch, or am I way off base in my thinking here??

?

?

Rich?

?

?

Inline image

?

?


Re: HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

 

Yes, I am leaning this way (switch being the issue). I think it could also be that I was running a bunch of two port calibrations using a Agilent 85093 this morning (testing eCal out). I had some averaging on, 1601 Points, and 300KHz of IF B/W Set. Needless to say there was a lot of switching going on today. Let me check the power output now, and then flip it over and pray that one of the connectors on the switch is loose.

Looks like the parts hunt is likely on!

Rich

On Saturday, March 5, 2022, 06:55:27 PM EST, Lothar baier <lothar@...> wrote:


The reversing switches are notorious for failures especially if a unit is used in a environment that is not ESD protected .? what you can also do and you have to be cautious if you do this is to remove the switch , remove the hardline from the switch to coupler port 1 and connect the coupler directly to the source , if your trace is consistent then you definatly have a bad switch !

?

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: Rich Miller via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 5:47 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

?

Hi Lothar:

?

It just started failing Port 1 Test. I was doing this just as this email came in. It is failing it consistently. I do not have a power meter, but I can take a look with my Spectrum Analyzer to see if there are power fluctuations at 3GHz. This problem seems to focus at frequencies higher than 3GHz.?

?

Once I have a look at the output power, I will open and have a look. This is a new problem, as I never saw this before.

?

Rich

?

On Saturday, March 5, 2022, 06:38:56 PM EST, Lothar baier <lothar@...> wrote:

?

?

If the S11response changes when you switch back and forth than this would point towards a repeatability issue with the solid state switch the fact that this changes with temperature would also point towards this direction , so here are a few things to try :

?

  1. Connect a short to port 1 ,? go to the service menu there is a op check for port 1 and 2 , run the op check several time first for port 1 then port 2 then go back to port 1 and so on , see if it passes consistently or if there is a failure
  2. If you have a power meter connect it to port 1 , change the analyzer to CW and a frequency close to the upper end (3 or 6GHz), set power to 0dBm and then switch back and forth between S11 and S22 measurement and see if the power changes
  3. Open the unit and check the hardline connetions , make sure the nuts are tight

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: Rich Miller via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 5:24 PM
To: HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

?

All:

?

?

I have an issue with S11 (Port 1). It showed it's head now that I am running two port calibrations, thus I have not detected it just yet. My hunch is I have a problem with the switch, but not the Bridge. Here is what I am observing:

?

1. Upon boot up I get a good/normal S11 RL Response into a good 50 Ohm Load. This Condition will persist until I do one of the steps below.

?

2. If I switch to Port 2 (i.e. S22 Measurement), and then back to Port 1 the S11 Response has gone nutty (See Attached Picture).?

?

3. I have noticed, that if I depress the S11 MEAS multiple times, the S11 RL Response returns to normal.?

?

4. If you look at the enclosed picture, I have captured what I refer to as a normal S11 response, which I saved to memory (Smooth), and what it looks like after pressing S11 again (Wild variations in response).

?

I have noticed there is a stark difference between instrument, cold and warm on S11. I do not however see this behavior our of any of the Port 2 Measurements regardless of temperature. Is there anywhere else this could be coming from other than the Solid State Switch, or am I way off base in my thinking here??

?

?

Rich?

?

?

Inline image

?

?


Re: HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

Lothar baier
 

开云体育

The reversing switches are notorious for failures especially if a unit is used in a environment that is not ESD protected .? what you can also do and you have to be cautious if you do this is to remove the switch , remove the hardline from the switch to coupler port 1 and connect the coupler directly to the source , if your trace is consistent then you definatly have a bad switch !

?

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: Rich Miller via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 5:47 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

?

Hi Lothar:

?

It just started failing Port 1 Test. I was doing this just as this email came in. It is failing it consistently. I do not have a power meter, but I can take a look with my Spectrum Analyzer to see if there are power fluctuations at 3GHz. This problem seems to focus at frequencies higher than 3GHz.?

?

Once I have a look at the output power, I will open and have a look. This is a new problem, as I never saw this before.

?

Rich

?

On Saturday, March 5, 2022, 06:38:56 PM EST, Lothar baier <lothar@...> wrote:

?

?

If the S11response changes when you switch back and forth than this would point towards a repeatability issue with the solid state switch the fact that this changes with temperature would also point towards this direction , so here are a few things to try :

?

  1. Connect a short to port 1 ,? go to the service menu there is a op check for port 1 and 2 , run the op check several time first for port 1 then port 2 then go back to port 1 and so on , see if it passes consistently or if there is a failure
  2. If you have a power meter connect it to port 1 , change the analyzer to CW and a frequency close to the upper end (3 or 6GHz), set power to 0dBm and then switch back and forth between S11 and S22 measurement and see if the power changes
  3. Open the unit and check the hardline connetions , make sure the nuts are tight

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: Rich Miller via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 5:24 PM
To: HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

?

All:

?

?

I have an issue with S11 (Port 1). It showed it's head now that I am running two port calibrations, thus I have not detected it just yet. My hunch is I have a problem with the switch, but not the Bridge. Here is what I am observing:

?

1. Upon boot up I get a good/normal S11 RL Response into a good 50 Ohm Load. This Condition will persist until I do one of the steps below.

?

2. If I switch to Port 2 (i.e. S22 Measurement), and then back to Port 1 the S11 Response has gone nutty (See Attached Picture).?

?

3. I have noticed, that if I depress the S11 MEAS multiple times, the S11 RL Response returns to normal.?

?

4. If you look at the enclosed picture, I have captured what I refer to as a normal S11 response, which I saved to memory (Smooth), and what it looks like after pressing S11 again (Wild variations in response).

?

I have noticed there is a stark difference between instrument, cold and warm on S11. I do not however see this behavior our of any of the Port 2 Measurements regardless of temperature. Is there anywhere else this could be coming from other than the Solid State Switch, or am I way off base in my thinking here??

?

?

Rich?

?

?

Inline image

?

?


Re: Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

 

@Ozan
Yes, I did mention further up the thread about that which I guess you must have missed. PLL lights 1 and 3 are ON, but I can't see a LED for PLL2.


Re: HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

 

Hi Lothar:

It just started failing Port 1 Test. I was doing this just as this email came in. It is failing it consistently. I do not have a power meter, but I can take a look with my Spectrum Analyzer to see if there are power fluctuations at 3GHz. This problem seems to focus at frequencies higher than 3GHz.?

Once I have a look at the output power, I will open and have a look. This is a new problem, as I never saw this before.

Rich

On Saturday, March 5, 2022, 06:38:56 PM EST, Lothar baier <lothar@...> wrote:


If the S11response changes when you switch back and forth than this would point towards a repeatability issue with the solid state switch the fact that this changes with temperature would also point towards this direction , so here are a few things to try :

?

  1. Connect a short to port 1 ,? go to the service menu there is a op check for port 1 and 2 , run the op check several time first for port 1 then port 2 then go back to port 1 and so on , see if it passes consistently or if there is a failure
  2. If you have a power meter connect it to port 1 , change the analyzer to CW and a frequency close to the upper end (3 or 6GHz), set power to 0dBm and then switch back and forth between S11 and S22 measurement and see if the power changes
  3. Open the unit and check the hardline connetions , make sure the nuts are tight

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: Rich Miller via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 5:24 PM
To: HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

?

All:

?

?

I have an issue with S11 (Port 1). It showed it's head now that I am running two port calibrations, thus I have not detected it just yet. My hunch is I have a problem with the switch, but not the Bridge. Here is what I am observing:

?

1. Upon boot up I get a good/normal S11 RL Response into a good 50 Ohm Load. This Condition will persist until I do one of the steps below.

?

2. If I switch to Port 2 (i.e. S22 Measurement), and then back to Port 1 the S11 Response has gone nutty (See Attached Picture).?

?

3. I have noticed, that if I depress the S11 MEAS multiple times, the S11 RL Response returns to normal.?

?

4. If you look at the enclosed picture, I have captured what I refer to as a normal S11 response, which I saved to memory (Smooth), and what it looks like after pressing S11 again (Wild variations in response).

?

I have noticed there is a stark difference between instrument, cold and warm on S11. I do not however see this behavior our of any of the Port 2 Measurements regardless of temperature. Is there anywhere else this could be coming from other than the Solid State Switch, or am I way off base in my thinking here??

?

?

Rich?

?

?

Inline image

?


Re: HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

Lothar baier
 

开云体育

If the S11response changes when you switch back and forth than this would point towards a repeatability issue with the solid state switch the fact that this changes with temperature would also point towards this direction , so here are a few things to try :

?

  1. Connect a short to port 1 ,? go to the service menu there is a op check for port 1 and 2 , run the op check several time first for port 1 then port 2 then go back to port 1 and so on , see if it passes consistently or if there is a failure
  2. If you have a power meter connect it to port 1 , change the analyzer to CW and a frequency close to the upper end (3 or 6GHz), set power to 0dBm and then switch back and forth between S11 and S22 measurement and see if the power changes
  3. Open the unit and check the hardline connetions , make sure the nuts are tight

?

Sent from for Windows

?

From: Rich Miller via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 5:24 PM
To: HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment
Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

?

All:

?

?

I have an issue with S11 (Port 1). It showed it's head now that I am running two port calibrations, thus I have not detected it just yet. My hunch is I have a problem with the switch, but not the Bridge. Here is what I am observing:

?

1. Upon boot up I get a good/normal S11 RL Response into a good 50 Ohm Load. This Condition will persist until I do one of the steps below.

?

2. If I switch to Port 2 (i.e. S22 Measurement), and then back to Port 1 the S11 Response has gone nutty (See Attached Picture).?

?

3. I have noticed, that if I depress the S11 MEAS multiple times, the S11 RL Response returns to normal.?

?

4. If you look at the enclosed picture, I have captured what I refer to as a normal S11 response, which I saved to memory (Smooth), and what it looks like after pressing S11 again (Wild variations in response).

?

I have noticed there is a stark difference between instrument, cold and warm on S11. I do not however see this behavior our of any of the Port 2 Measurements regardless of temperature. Is there anywhere else this could be coming from other than the Solid State Switch, or am I way off base in my thinking here??

?

?

Rich?

?

?

Inline image

?


HP-8753E S11 Intermittent Results - Switch or Bridge?

 

All:


I have an issue with S11 (Port 1). It showed it's head now that I am running two port calibrations, thus I have not detected it just yet. My hunch is I have a problem with the switch, but not the Bridge. Here is what I am observing:

1. Upon boot up I get a good/normal S11 RL Response into a good 50 Ohm Load. This Condition will persist until I do one of the steps below.

2. If I switch to Port 2 (i.e. S22 Measurement), and then back to Port 1 the S11 Response has gone nutty (See Attached Picture).?

3. I have noticed, that if I depress the S11 MEAS multiple times, the S11 RL Response returns to normal.?

4. If you look at the enclosed picture, I have captured what I refer to as a normal S11 response, which I saved to memory (Smooth), and what it looks like after pressing S11 again (Wild variations in response).

I have noticed there is a stark difference between instrument, cold and warm on S11. I do not however see this behavior our of any of the Port 2 Measurements regardless of temperature. Is there anywhere else this could be coming from other than the Solid State Switch, or am I way off base in my thinking here??


Rich?


Inline image


Re: Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

 

开云体育

Didn't Albert Einstein say something like Everything should be made as simple as possible? but no simpler.? I always figured he was making a joke.

Jim



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device


-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Lee <tomlee@...>
Date: 3/5/22 2:52 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

Probably the easiest way to explain it is that harmonic distortion makes every cycle look the same. Distorted, but the same. So the time between zero-crossings doesn't move around in that case.

-- Cheers,
Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 3/5/2022 14:43, Jim Ford wrote:
Yeah, it didn't sit quite right with me, either, distortion creating phase noise.? But I don't have the academic chops to explain it like you, Tom.? Thanks for weighing in.?

Jim Ford



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device


-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Lee <tomlee@...>
Date: 3/5/22 2:21 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

Actually, not quite. Harmonic distortion does not generate phase noise (the integer relation of harmonics means that the zero-crossings do not undergo modulations). You need extra (and somewhat special) ingredients for distortions to produce phase noise.

Cheers,
Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 3/5/2022 13:14, Jinxie wrote:
Thanks, Matt. I wouldn't have thought it would make enough difference either - BUT I guess any distortion of a pure sine wave generates phase noise which isn't exactly going to help, so who knows?



Re: Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

 

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 03:05 PM, Jinxie wrote:
Ozan, your A10 02 LED doesn't seem to be lit from what I can see.
I take all your other points on board.
-------
It is a miracle that any of the LEDs are lighting up on my unit based on the condition I found it. The reason for attaching the picture was to remind you the question asked earlier about whether any lock LEDs are lighting up on your unit.?

Ozan


Re: Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

 

开云体育

Makes perfect sense, Tom!? I wish all my professors had made it that simple, 30+ years ago!? Thanks.

Jim?



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device


-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Lee <tomlee@...>
Date: 3/5/22 2:52 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

Probably the easiest way to explain it is that harmonic distortion makes every cycle look the same. Distorted, but the same. So the time between zero-crossings doesn't move around in that case.

-- Cheers,
Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 3/5/2022 14:43, Jim Ford wrote:
Yeah, it didn't sit quite right with me, either, distortion creating phase noise.? But I don't have the academic chops to explain it like you, Tom.? Thanks for weighing in.?

Jim Ford



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device


-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Lee <tomlee@...>
Date: 3/5/22 2:21 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

Actually, not quite. Harmonic distortion does not generate phase noise (the integer relation of harmonics means that the zero-crossings do not undergo modulations). You need extra (and somewhat special) ingredients for distortions to produce phase noise.

Cheers,
Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 3/5/2022 13:14, Jinxie wrote:
Thanks, Matt. I wouldn't have thought it would make enough difference either - BUT I guess any distortion of a pure sine wave generates phase noise which isn't exactly going to help, so who knows?



Re: Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

 

Ozan, your A10 02 LED doesn't seem to be lit from what I can see.
I take all your other points on board.


Re: Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

 

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 02:32 PM, Jinxie wrote:
@Ozan
That is a very valid observation if indeed the wave is digitised further down the line. However, whilst that would certainly work fine as-is for digital purposes, is it realistic to suppose that a company like HP, with all its attention to detail, would allow a VCXO into production that produced a dirty signal like this? Is it not more likely that this distortion might be indicative of some underlying issue elsewhere which could be fundamentally related to the YTO unlock error?
---
Hi Jinxie,
Could you put screenshot of the waveform in a photo folder, or attach to the posts if the image is not large? Also note how you are measuring (50-ohm terminated, with a scope probe etc). What may look like a bad signal to you could be OK for its purpose. Perhaps one of the group members can compare with their 8566B. I do have RF section of an 8566B bought for parts but I don't know if my reference generator works.?

At a high level: A7A1 has its own lock signal which can tell you if there is an issue in that area. Are you sure reference section has an issue? Do you have 100MHz counter to measure the 100MHz output?

As Bruce said there are lock indicators on M/N block. I attached the picture on mine that shows green LED for lock. I believe different PLLs lock at different spans but as I wrote above I don't have a way to exercise them (yet).?

Ozan


Re: Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

 

开云体育

Probably the easiest way to explain it is that harmonic distortion makes every cycle look the same. Distorted, but the same. So the time between zero-crossings doesn't move around in that case.

-- Cheers,
Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 3/5/2022 14:43, Jim Ford wrote:

Yeah, it didn't sit quite right with me, either, distortion creating phase noise.? But I don't have the academic chops to explain it like you, Tom.? Thanks for weighing in.?

Jim Ford



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device


-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Lee <tomlee@...>
Date: 3/5/22 2:21 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

Actually, not quite. Harmonic distortion does not generate phase noise (the integer relation of harmonics means that the zero-crossings do not undergo modulations). You need extra (and somewhat special) ingredients for distortions to produce phase noise.

Cheers,
Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 3/5/2022 13:14, Jinxie wrote:
Thanks, Matt. I wouldn't have thought it would make enough difference either - BUT I guess any distortion of a pure sine wave generates phase noise which isn't exactly going to help, so who knows?



Re: Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

 

开云体育

Yeah, it didn't sit quite right with me, either, distortion creating phase noise.? But I don't have the academic chops to explain it like you, Tom.? Thanks for weighing in.?

Jim Ford



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device


-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Lee <tomlee@...>
Date: 3/5/22 2:21 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] Scoping the Power Rails [8566B]

Actually, not quite. Harmonic distortion does not generate phase noise (the integer relation of harmonics means that the zero-crossings do not undergo modulations). You need extra (and somewhat special) ingredients for distortions to produce phase noise.

Cheers,
Tom
-- 
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 3/5/2022 13:14, Jinxie wrote:
Thanks, Matt. I wouldn't have thought it would make enough difference either - BUT I guess any distortion of a pure sine wave generates phase noise which isn't exactly going to help, so who knows?