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  1. HP-Agilent-Keysight-Equipment
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Date
Re: New member intro

 

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 05:55 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 11/16/21 12:06 AM, Chris Wilkson via groups.io wrote:
Yes, there are some compatibility issues.? I have 1 pair of ears that
won't work with the installed handles.? The cutout angle is too sharp.
These came extra in a bag with my 3456 meter and I was told they would
work with the 850x gear.? They don't.
Are you sure they're actually HP System-II ears?

Also, don't forget that there are two types of ears for System-II
enclosures: one for use with handles, and the other without.
No, I'm not sure.? They were loose in a bag with no identification.
They look just like the ears on the 3456A meter which has handles and ears already installed.

Is the 3456A meter a HP System-II enclosure?? How can I tell?? Sure as heck looks the same as the 850xA VNA stuff.

I do know there are 2 types of ears.
The ones I need have an acute angle cutout in the face that screws to the rack.? It's to accommodate the handles.
The other type doesn't have that cutout (I think....I've not seen them in person).

Cheers,
Chris
Re: New member intro

 

On 11/16/21 12:06 AM, Chris Wilkson via groups.io wrote:
Yes, there are some compatibility issues.? I have 1 pair of ears that won't work with the installed handles.? The cutout angle is too sharp. These came extra in a bag with my 3456 meter and I was told they would work with the 850x gear.? They don't.
Are you sure they're actually HP System-II ears?

Also, don't forget that there are two types of ears for System-II enclosures: one for use with handles, and the other without.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Re: Removing the Adhesive From Hell

 

I recommend d-limonene.? It's orange peel extract and it's both a very good solvent for all kinds of glue.? It will take magic marker off hard surfaces.? If you buy the "Food-grade" version, you can take it as an antacid ( they make it in gel caps too).?

?
Re: 54615B Agilent Scope Amplitude Low When Measuring 120V AC

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

If you use standard X10 'scope probes, one way to measure something like AC mains is to use both 'scope channels, set to ADD with one of the channels inverted.? This then gives a single trace on the 'scope which is in effect a differential measurement of the signal between the 2 probes.? With one probe on each side of the AC signal and the 'scope set to 5V/cm (and the probe earths 'earthed'), the sensitivity with a X10 probe is therefore 50V/cm, so 400V total, top to bottom of the screen.

?

With 120V AC, I would expect the P:P signals to be ~340V, within the 400V total range of the 'scope screen.

?

Just my 5p worth!

?

73, Mike,

Mike Stevens,

G8CUL/M0CUL/F4VRB.

?

From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Robert G8RPI via groups.io
Sent: 16 November 2021 10:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 54615B Agilent Scope Amplitude Low When Measuring 120V AC

?

One thing about Neils post,
the "earth" lead on the 'scope probe is not their for safety. It's just for signal fidelity.
The resistance and current rating of the lead is not adequate to provide protection against shocks or fire. I've seen more than one 'sope lead literally smoking over the years when somone (not me) made a bad connection.

Robert G8RPI.


Virus-free.

Re: 54615B Agilent Scope Amplitude Low When Measuring 120V AC

 

One thing about Neils post,
the "earth" lead on the 'scope probe is not their for safety. It's just for signal fidelity.
The resistance and current rating of the lead is not adequate to provide protection against shocks or fire. I've seen more than one 'sope lead literally smoking over the years when somone (not me) made a bad connection.

Robert G8RPI.
Re: How do I use these PSU output covers?

 


I have a couple of these supplies. When I'm using thin cables I bring them out of the slots on the lower face of the cover (I also use remote sensing with thin cables).?

If you don't want remote sensing you still need to loop back the sense inputs under that cover, or you'll see a significant output voltage error. Fitted by default by HP, but sometimes they and the annoyingly difficult to find connector get lost.

See attached pic.

--

Peter (G4VLC)



On Tue, 16 Nov 2021 at 09:52, Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd <drkirkby@...> wrote:
On Tue, 16 Nov 2021 at 09:43, Dr. David Kirkby <drkirkby@...> wrote:
I have an HP 6674A PSU (normally 60 V 35 A), but mine with an option that increases the voltage to 70 V, but drops the current to 30 A. The output terminals should be covered by a cover, a photograph of which I attach. I am trying to figure out how Agilent expects these to be used.?

Oops, I forgot to attach one of the photos.

--
Dr. David Kirkby,
Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
drkirkby@...

Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100

Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
Registered office:
Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom

MonsterPSUsenseTerminals.jpg

Re: How do I use these PSU output covers?

 

On Tue, 16 Nov 2021 at 09:43, Dr. David Kirkby <drkirkby@...> wrote:
I have an HP 6674A PSU (normally 60 V 35 A), but mine with an option that increases the voltage to 70 V, but drops the current to 30 A. The output terminals should be covered by a cover, a photograph of which I attach. I am trying to figure out how Agilent expects these to be used.?

Oops, I forgot to attach one of the photos.

--
Dr. David Kirkby,
Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
drkirkby@...

Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100

Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
Registered office:
Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom

IMG_9509.jpg

How do I use these PSU output covers?

 

I have an HP 6674A PSU (normally 60 V 35 A), but mine with an option that increases the voltage to 70 V, but drops the current to 30 A. The output terminals should be covered by a cover, a photograph of which I attach. I am trying to figure out how Agilent expects these to be used.?

It looks like there are areas on these which you can break away to give some sort of hole that is not round. I am using cables which are about 6 mm in diameter. I am not bothered about remote sensing, the smaller holes would do for m4 6 mm diameter cables, but one can not fit a grommet or cable grand as there is insufficient room inside (see internal picture). If instead I use the larger holes, I will not find a grommet or cable gland that will take cables as small as 6 mm diameter.?

I am quite tempted to just drill two holes in this, and put a couple of cable glands suitable for a 6 mm diameter cables. But I suspect that the plastic might shatter if I try drilling it.? Someone else said don¡¯t bother with cable grands as this cover is too weak to take a good tug, so I might as well use grommets with? cable ties on the inside? to stop the cable pulling out. .?

I must be missing something, as Agilent seems to put a fair amount of effort into the design of his cover, but it seems virtually unusable to me.

Dave?


--
Dr. David Kirkby,
Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
drkirkby@...

Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100

Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
Registered office:
Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom

IMG_9513.jpg
IMG_9510.jpg

Re: 54615B Agilent Scope Amplitude Low When Measuring 120V AC

 

You don't necessarily need isolated probes, you just need to have isolation between you and the test setup.

Please learn from my mistakes where I have fried probes and oscilloscopes. Here are some hard learned lessons:

1. If you aren't sure that your oscilloscope inputs are isolated then assume they are not. This is the correct assumption 99.99% of the time.
2. The ground lead on that probe is there protect you
3. The ground lead on the oscilloscope is also there to protect you
4. Resist the temptation to circumvent ground with isolation transformers for the oscilloscope power or by cutting the ground path.

Making a high fidelity high voltage measurement takes a bit of thought. The crudest method is to use 2 probe channels to make a crude differential probe. You connect the probe grounds together and not to the DUT. 1 probe goes to your signal and the other to your DUT ground. Then you subtract the two channels.

Better yet you can get a proper differential probe ($$) or a high voltage rated oscilloscope probe meant for this type of work ($$$). I personally prefer another option, using a battery powered oscilloscope ($-$$$) instead. These can be purchased with the same type of safety ratings as a DMM which a regulator oscilloscope could never achieve.

But to reiterate: the operator danger is when you are touching any part of the DUT or test setup. Avoid this when you can but setting up the measurement beforehand and then switch the DUT on safely.

Cheers,
Neil

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, at 9:41 PM, Bostonman wrote:
As far as incorrect voltage, the 340V is pretty much spot on with the other oscilloscope, and the meter is a true RMS that is reading 120V AC.

So you're thinking that this scope has an acceptable error at this high voltage? This makes sense, and at least helps to know the scope isn't actually broken.

Isolated inputs is something I've never tinkered with, but have heard they should be used. Isolating equipment from the outlet is a concept I never grasped, and always been afraid of messing with it. Measuring line voltage was just for fun and not something I do often, but I guess it isn't the smartest thing to do.

Does a more affordable solution exist rather than $1k on that probe in the link?

Re: 54615B Agilent Scope Amplitude Low When Measuring 120V AC

Bostonman
 

As far as incorrect voltage, the 340V is pretty much spot on with the other oscilloscope, and the meter is a true RMS that is reading 120V AC.

So you're thinking that this scope has an acceptable error at this high voltage? This makes sense, and at least helps to know the scope isn't actually broken.

Isolated inputs is something I've never tinkered with, but have heard they should be used. Isolating equipment from the outlet is a concept I never grasped, and always been afraid of messing with it. Measuring line voltage was just for fun and not something I do often, but I guess it isn't the smartest thing to do.

Does a more affordable solution exist rather than $1k on that probe in the link?
RF probe tip

 

So I was perusing the HPAK 6632B manuals and under performance testing it requires a "1:1 probe with an RF tip."? Elsewhere under PARD testing it says?

"Set the oscilloscope's bandwidth limit to 20 MHz and use an RF tip on the oscilloscope probe".??

My question is what exactly is an RF probe tip?
Re: New member intro

 

Yes, there are some compatibility issues.? I have 1 pair of ears that won't work with the installed handles.? The cutout angle is too sharp.? These came extra in a bag with my 3456 meter and I was told they would work with the 850x gear.? They don't.
So I need to research the correct ears.? I have the original manuals for the VNA stack.? They should have the correct part numbers (I hope).? I just haven't had time to dig them out yet.
Re: Sample preparation for Impedance Analyzer

 

Thanks Vladan.
That paper will be useful.
I also found the manual for the modern Keysight 16196A (851422.pdf download) to be useful.?
Have you ever used the coaxial test fixture?
It is coaxial as in 50 ohm impedance, I still do not know what the donuts are.
Peter

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 6:34 PM pianovt via <pianovt=[email protected]> wrote:
Peter,

is a description of the measurement method and ratioanle.

Vladan

Re: [TekScopes] Removing the Adhesive From Hell

 

This discussion (which is also on another list) is helpful. I have an antique microphone which had masking tape on part of the outside. The finish is crinkle black. I could never get the adhesive off. Since the part that has the residue comes off I will give it a test with hot water and Goo Gone. I will report my success (or lack of it) to the list.

On 11/15/2021 3:33 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:
Hot water is simply amazing.

Masking tape is a problem child. Its mastic
starts out
sticky, then progresses to gooey, and ends up dry and
crumbly.

I find that masking tape lets go if it is allowed to stay
wet. It could indicate a polar component to its mastic,
or simply be the paper backing losing integrity.

I tend to start with water and detergent if the item
is just grungy, as it cleans up dirt, coffee, and soda
stains very well.

I then work my way to the semi polar/non polar solvents,
like alcohol/water solutions. 91% IPA most of the time,
but there are times when 70% is just a little more polar,
and works better. 70% will dissolve sugar where 91%, not
so much.

Finally ending up in the non-polar solvents, like naptha,
which works really well on gummy lables.

Goo-gone works well, but make sure you keep it well shook
up. It tends to separate into oil and solvent layers.

I have had best luck using a spray cleaner on the dried on
mastic from masking tape.

If the masking tape's mastic has gone gooey, naptha works
best.

-Chuck Harris


On Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:47:53 -0800 "Roy Thistle"
<roy.thistle@...> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 08:15 AM, n4buq wrote:

heat, I've found that pouring/soaking in boiling water will help
loosen some adhesives.
Heat makes solvents (like water... the so called 'universal solvent')
dissolve compounds more completely. Yes... it's obvious; but, IMO
it's underutilised, as a cleaning method. Just hot water and soap
dissolves a lot of 'dirt' ... even if only eventually.






--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@...
WB6KBL
Re: Sample preparation for Impedance Analyzer

 

Peter,

is a description of the measurement method and ratioanle.

Vladan
Re: [TekScopes] Removing the Adhesive From Hell

 

Hot water is simply amazing.

Masking tape is a problem child. Its mastic
starts out
sticky, then progresses to gooey, and ends up dry and
crumbly.

I find that masking tape lets go if it is allowed to stay
wet. It could indicate a polar component to its mastic,
or simply be the paper backing losing integrity.

I tend to start with water and detergent if the item
is just grungy, as it cleans up dirt, coffee, and soda
stains very well.

I then work my way to the semi polar/non polar solvents,
like alcohol/water solutions. 91% IPA most of the time,
but there are times when 70% is just a little more polar,
and works better. 70% will dissolve sugar where 91%, not
so much.

Finally ending up in the non-polar solvents, like naptha,
which works really well on gummy lables.

Goo-gone works well, but make sure you keep it well shook
up. It tends to separate into oil and solvent layers.

I have had best luck using a spray cleaner on the dried on
mastic from masking tape.

If the masking tape's mastic has gone gooey, naptha works
best.

-Chuck Harris


On Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:47:53 -0800 "Roy Thistle"
<roy.thistle@...> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 08:15 AM, n4buq wrote:


heat, I've found that pouring/soaking in boiling water will help
loosen some adhesives.
Heat makes solvents (like water... the so called 'universal solvent')
dissolve compounds more completely. Yes... it's obvious; but, IMO
it's underutilised, as a cleaning method. Just hot water and soap
dissolves a lot of 'dirt' ... even if only eventually.
Re: Sample preparation for Impedance Analyzer

 

Those donuts have two O/D sizes but a selection of I/D for the holes Are these actually sample holders for the two sizes:
7mm diam x 20mm length
10mm diam x 20mm length
(Outer Diameter and Inner Diameter. There are too many acronyms. I found CRT in a C++ Tutorial but it does not mean Cathode Ray Tube)

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 5:35 PM peter bunge via <bunge.pjp=[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks Dave;
I found an Operation Note for the HP 16091A Cavity test fixture. It does not explain how to use it.
There are a couple of vague paragraphs in the HP 4191A manual (page 3-50 in mine) but nothing on how to use this test fixture.
These appear on Ebay for $1500 or more. Who buys or? uses them?
There is more information in the 1980 Jan HP Journal than the 4191A manual, and some pictures of them in use.?
I assume these are the pins to solder/connect to the sample but no explanation on preparing a sample.
Kit 1i.jpg

This is the cavity. What are the donuts in the round container? Are these dielectric samples?
Why do they have a hole in them? Has anyone seen/have a manual for this HP 16091A Coaxial Test Fixture?
Is it coaxial as in an RF cavity? I don't think so because it is too small for 1 GHz.?
I think it is a coaxial shield for minimum stray capacitance/inductance.
16091A_3.jpg

On Sun, Nov 14, 2021 at 9:33 PM Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:
On 11/14/21 8:57 PM, peter bunge wrote:
> How are connections made to samples with granular surfaces? Any
> suggestions apart from sputtering?
> How about conductive paint (rear defroster repair, Permatex has two
> products)?
> How are samples prepared for an instrument like the HP4191A? Is there a
> document that covers the subject?
> What do the samples look like and what dimensinos? It does not appear to
> be in the 4191A manual.
> Is there anyone? with actual experience making up samples and measuring
> them?
> My interest is in measuring the properties of highly conductive samples
> at different frequencies.

? ?How about colloidal silver?? The kind that's used in electron
microscopy, not the kind that's used by "healing crystals" etc nutjobs.

? ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Re: [TekScopes] Removing the Adhesive From Hell

 

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 08:15 AM, n4buq wrote:
heat, I've found that pouring/soaking in boiling water will help loosen some adhesives.
Heat makes solvents (like water... the so called 'universal solvent') dissolve compounds more completely.?
Yes... it's obvious; but, IMO it's underutilised, as a cleaning method.
Just hot water and soap dissolves a lot of 'dirt' ... even if only eventually.
Re: Sample preparation for Impedance Analyzer

 

Thanks Dave;
I found an Operation Note for the HP 16091A Cavity test fixture. It does not explain how to use it.
There are a couple of vague paragraphs in the HP 4191A manual (page 3-50 in mine) but nothing on how to use this test fixture.
These appear on Ebay for $1500 or more. Who buys or? uses them?
There is more information in the 1980 Jan HP Journal than the 4191A manual, and some pictures of them in use.?
I assume these are the pins to solder/connect to the sample but no explanation on preparing a sample.
Kit 1i.jpg

This is the cavity. What are the donuts in the round container? Are these dielectric samples?
Why do they have a hole in them? Has anyone seen/have a manual for this HP 16091A Coaxial Test Fixture?
Is it coaxial as in an RF cavity? I don't think so because it is too small for 1 GHz.?
I think it is a coaxial shield for minimum stray capacitance/inductance.
16091A_3.jpg


On Sun, Nov 14, 2021 at 9:33 PM Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> wrote:
On 11/14/21 8:57 PM, peter bunge wrote:
> How are connections made to samples with granular surfaces? Any
> suggestions apart from sputtering?
> How about conductive paint (rear defroster repair, Permatex has two
> products)?
> How are samples prepared for an instrument like the HP4191A? Is there a
> document that covers the subject?
> What do the samples look like and what dimensinos? It does not appear to
> be in the 4191A manual.
> Is there anyone? with actual experience making up samples and measuring
> them?
> My interest is in measuring the properties of highly conductive samples
> at different frequencies.

? ?How about colloidal silver?? The kind that's used in electron
microscopy, not the kind that's used by "healing crystals" etc nutjobs.

? ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Re: 54615B Agilent Scope Amplitude Low When Measuring 120V AC

 

Robert makes a good point. Totally isolated equipment is safer for line voltage measurements.?



On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 1:01 PM Robert G8RPI via <robert8rpi=[email protected]> wrote:

A suitable probe is

A simple accidential reversionof line and neutral with a standard probe will result in any or all the following possible outcomes:
Tripped earth fault breaker.
Fried probe cable.
Fried 'scope.
Electrocuted operator
Burnt down property

No matter how careful you are about personal safety, even normal surges and spikes on the mains supply cn be high enough to damage normal probes and your scope.
Note that the "mains rated" probes intended for handheld 'scopes have no advantage on a normal 'scope thay? are intended for 'scopes with fully isolated inputs.

Robert G8RPI.

--
Jeremy Nichols
6.
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