Re: PAL misconceptions, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
Agreed 100% about VHDL!
-Dave
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On 2/22/22 20:54, Jim Ford wrote: A bit later than Palasm was AHDL from Altera, since bought by Intel. Kind of nice, as one could generate fairly complex designs quickly and without the overhead BS of VHDL.? VHDL was designed by committee, and it shows.
Jim Ford
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-------- Original message --------
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire@...>
Date: 2/22/22 2:02 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: PAL misconceptions, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
On 2/22/22 16:32, Jeff Anderson wrote:
> I remember designing with PALs, GALs, and CPLDs back in the 80's.? Great
> for reducing the number of SSI TTL chips on a board, but they were
> power-hogs, if I recall correctly.
?? That didn't last long, fortunately.
> I did the programming for various designs with ABEL, PALASM, and CUPL.
> Don't recall their syntax any longer, though.
?? I use PALASM today, for when I need PALs/GALs.? It's great...simple,
fast, no fluff, no BS, predictable.
????????? -Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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Re: PAL misconceptions, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
A bit later than Palasm was AHDL from Altera, since bought by Intel.? Kind of nice, as one could generate fairly complex designs quickly and without the overhead BS of VHDL.? VHDL was designed by committee, and it shows.
Jim Ford
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
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-------- Original message -------- From: Dave McGuire <mcguire@...> Date: 2/22/22 2:02 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: PAL misconceptions, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
On 2/22/22 16:32, Jeff Anderson wrote: > I remember designing with PALs, GALs, and CPLDs back in the 80's.? Great > for reducing the number of SSI TTL chips on a board, but they were > power-hogs, if I recall correctly. ?? That didn't last long, fortunately. > I did the programming for various designs with ABEL, PALASM, and CUPL.? > Don't recall their syntax any longer, though. ?? I use PALASM today, for when I need PALs/GALs.? It's great...simple, fast, no fluff, no BS, predictable. ????????? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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HP 1727A CRO: Problem with the vertical output amplifier.
Hello HP/Agilent/Keysight people!
I am? new here, this group was recommended to me by someone on the EEVblog forum, that's where I came from.
I have had this HP 1727A scope for a while now and have has moderate success fixing it up, I came to me with a whole host of problem that I will not get into right now, but the last remaining one is a distorted trace, which I tracked to the vertical output amp.
I will be referencing the PDF manual attached below in my description of where I am as far as trouble shooting. I have narrowed the problem area down to either U1 or surrounding components (pgs. 133-134). Attached are some captures of signals present on various pins of U1, refer to the file names for extra details.
My hope is that someone in this group could help me with some tests to do in order to prove that U1 is good or bad, and if it is bad, recommend a repair path. I should mention that my particular 1727A is somewhat of an oddity, I think it is a very early hardware revision, as such there are quite a few differences between it and the manual, both my hardcopy and the pdf.
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Hi and thanks for the info.
Those tolerances are way tighter than I'd ever imagined! No way can I meet those kind of standards with the meters I have currently. I also very much doubt I have the necessary equipment for the subsequent re-calibration, either. Really annoying, as I have a *ton* of high-end test gear here, but it's almost all vintage stuff and also out of calibration. As just a radio ham and someone that enjoys goofing around with electronics, the stuff I have is fine from the hobby point of view and I enjoy fixing up old test gear and getting it working again, but I never return it to professional standards of accuracy because the full range of test gear needed to achieve that standard is eye-wateringly expensive and I can't justify that level of financial outlay. :(
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Re: HP8568B manual quality
Lou,
I have the 8568B manual set from Artek.? It is definitely better!? I can easily read the signal names and pin numbers on that exact area of the schematic.
--John Gord
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On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 12:16 PM, Lou Blasco wrote:
Hi, Has anyone purchased HP8568B manuals from Artek and if so are the circuits better image quality than the attached example?
?
?
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Re: HP8568B manual quality
Thanks All,
Indeed the quality is excellent and the price is very fair. Example of the same section that I posted before.
On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 9:51 AM Raymond Domp Frank < hewpatek@...> wrote: On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 11:47 PM, Raymond Domp Frank wrote:
In my experience, Dave's (ArtekManuals') scans are as good as they get.
My 8568A manual definitely is much better than your 8568B sample.
Raymond
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Re: HP 3048A software without floppy disks
On 2/22/22 01:59, rmb_guru via groups.io wrote: BTW, you can just ignore the prompts to change floppy disks when asked, since all the files are one the same volume. It's trivial to edit the source code and comment out that prompt. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Re: HP8568B manual quality
On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 11:47 PM, Raymond Domp Frank wrote:
In my experience, Dave's (ArtekManuals') scans are as good as they get.
My 8568A manual definitely is much better than your 8568B sample. Raymond
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Re: HP8568B manual quality
On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 09:16 PM, Lou Blasco wrote:
Has anyone purchased HP8568B manuals from Artek and if so are the circuits better image quality than the attached example?
In my experience, Dave's (ArtekManuals') scans are as good as they get. He is dependent on the quality of his original though, which cannot always be a good quality printed version. If you email him and specify an example page, I'm pretty sure he'll give a specific and clear response. Raymond
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Re: PAL misconceptions, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
On 2/22/22 16:32, Jeff Anderson wrote: I remember designing with PALs, GALs, and CPLDs back in the 80's.? Great for reducing the number of SSI TTL chips on a board, but they were power-hogs, if I recall correctly. That didn't last long, fortunately. I did the programming for various designs with ABEL, PALASM, and CUPL. Don't recall their syntax any longer, though. I use PALASM today, for when I need PALs/GALs. It's great...simple, fast, no fluff, no BS, predictable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Re: PAL misconceptions, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
I remember designing with PALs, GALs, and CPLDs back in the 80's.? Great for reducing the number of SSI TTL chips on a board, but they were power-hogs, if I recall correctly.
I did the programming for various designs with ABEL, PALASM, and CUPL.? Don't recall their syntax any longer, though.
- Jeff, k6jca
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Re: HP8568B manual quality
I print schematics on a D sized plotter. The schematics from Artek manuals are always excellent quality and print clearly without dropouts or fuzzed lines, even when enlarged.
Well worth the very modest cost.
Paul
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On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 01:04:44PM -0800, Glydeck via groups.io wrote: All of the manuals I’ve purchased from Artek are much better than your example.
George
On Feb 22, 2022, at 12:16 PM, Lou Blasco <vk3alb@...> wrote:
?
Hi,
Has anyone purchased HP8568B manuals from Artek and if so are the circuits better image quality than the attached example?
Regards
Lou
VK3ALB
!DSPAM:62154ff99601493514534!
--
Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Manchester MI, USA
Aurora Group of Michigan, LLC | Security, Systems & Software
paul@... | Unix/Linux - We don't do windows
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Re: HP8568B manual quality
Thanks George,
That's what I was hoping to hear.
--
Regards
Lou
VK3ALB
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Re: HP8568B manual quality
All of the manuals I’ve purchased from Artek are much better than your example.
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On Feb 22, 2022, at 12:16 PM, Lou Blasco <vk3alb@...> wrote:
? Hi, Has anyone purchased HP8568B manuals from Artek and if so are the circuits better image quality than the attached example?
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Re: PAL misconceptions, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
True, a shift register may be all you can get.? Making a counter can be more difficult because you may not have access to the preset lines on the flipflops.
I skipped from the 22V10 directly to CPLDs.? I had designs that I couldn't do in PALS.
Harvey
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On 2/22/2022 3:14 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: On 2/22/22 14:04, Harvey White wrote:
PALs are combinational logic, such as (using address lines)? A4 and A3 and not A2 and A1 and not A0.
To decode serial data, you need flip-flops, some storage to convert serial to parallel and then act on that.
CPLD's can do that, but with most PAL chips, depending on what's internal, it would be difficult.
Generally, PALs are used to decode address lines to enable a specific chip. ? No.? The very earliest PALs, like PAL16L8 etc, are combinatorial. But shortly thereafter, 16R8 (etc), the 'R' meaning "Registered", appeared.? These are sequential logic devices that store state and have feedback terms.? Still later, the 16V8 etc, (the 'V' meaning "Variable" or "Versatile", depending on who you ask) have still greater functionality.? It's easy to implement something like a shift register using PALs and nothing else.
???????????? -Dave
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Re: PAL misconceptions, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
On 2/22/22 15:26, Wilko Bulte wrote: 16V8 etc were GAL, not PAL, devices. Erasable, and more flexible architecturally than PAL devices. The terms are used interchangeably all over the industry, just like the chips. Used them when I did my first hardware design (professionally I mean). Shows my age I suppose :-/ Yup. Which means you know what you're talking about. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Re: PAL misconceptions, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
16V8 etc were GAL, not PAL, devices. Erasable, and more flexible architecturally than PAL devices.
Used them when I did my first hardware design (professionally I mean). Shows my age I suppose :-/
Wilko
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Hi, Has anyone purchased HP8568B manuals from Artek and if so are the circuits better image quality than the attached example?
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PAL misconceptions, was Re: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] 8516A cable question
On 2/22/22 14:04, Harvey White wrote: PALs are combinational logic, such as (using address lines)? A4 and A3 and not A2 and A1 and not A0.
To decode serial data, you need flip-flops, some storage to convert serial to parallel and then act on that.
CPLD's can do that, but with most PAL chips, depending on what's internal, it would be difficult.
Generally, PALs are used to decode address lines to enable a specific chip. No. The very earliest PALs, like PAL16L8 etc, are combinatorial. But shortly thereafter, 16R8 (etc), the 'R' meaning "Registered", appeared. These are sequential logic devices that store state and have feedback terms. Still later, the 16V8 etc, (the 'V' meaning "Variable" or "Versatile", depending on who you ask) have still greater functionality. It's easy to implement something like a shift register using PALs and nothing else. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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Points that way.
Harvey
On 2/22/2022 2:21 PM, Lothar baier
wrote:
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That’s what I thought so the use of a PAL
would point towards the control interface indeed being a
parallel interface and not serial
?
Sent from for Windows
?
?
PALs are combinational logic, such as (using address lines)?
A4 and A3 and not A2 and A1 and not A0.
To decode serial data, you need flip-flops, some storage to
convert serial to parallel and then act on that.
CPLD's can do that, but with most PAL chips, depending on
what's internal, it would be difficult.
Generally, PALs are used to decode address lines to enable a
specific chip.
Harvey
?
On 2/22/2022 1:26 PM, Lothar baier wrote:
I know it is labeled RS232 but
unfortunately that does not mean a regular RS232 Cable can
be used , I looked through the service manual for the 8340B
and it indicates the pin numbers on the rear panel connector
of the 8340 but it refers to control bit numbers which would
indicate a parallel port rather than serial , also the 8516
service manual indicates that the pins are connected to a
PAL on the doubler control board , I am a RF not a digital
guy but I don’t think you can use a PAL as a serial decoder
?
Sent from for Windows
?
?
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:20 AM, Lothar
baier wrote:
08516-60009
You might a standard RS232 cable. It's
labeled "CABLE
ASSEMBLY, RS232" in the 8516A S-Parameter Test Set
Operating and Service Manual.
-George
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Dave McGuire
Alex_03
Jinxie
Glydeck