Re: Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR
Long ago in a computer professional magazine I read an article entitled, "If Programming Languages Were Automobiles." Here is what I remember: Assembly Language: A Formula I race car. Difficult to drive and expensive to maintain. Cobol: A delivery truck. Bulky and ugly, but it does the work. (Fortran IV was in there: sorry) PL/I: A Cadillac convertible with spoked wheels, fishtails and a two-tone paint job. BASIC: A second-hand Rambler with patched upholstery. Your father bought it for you to learn how to drive. You traded it in later for a better car. Lisp: An electric car (not the modern kind). Slow but simple. C: A black Firebird, the macho car with power steering, power brakes, and state-of the-art seat belts. Forth: A go-cart. Ada: An Army-green Jeep with no seat belts. No options available. Pascal: A Volkswagen beetle. Small but sturdy. Was once popular with intellectuals. Algol-60: An Austin Mini. Boy, that's a small car. (My own suggestion) SAS: A locomotive train. Each car performs a different task.
On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 11:28 AM Wally Mclaughlin <wally@...> wrote:
Assembler is the only language I ever learned and loved. ? My university education was a systems programming course. 1st semester was S/370 assembler basics, 2nd semester was writing macros and re-entrant code, for the third and fourth semester our 'textbooks' were the IBM manuals OS/VS2 MVS Supervisor Services and Macro Instructions and OS/VS2 MVS Data Management Macro Instructions. I quit school after 2 years because the job offers were incredible and I still had all my electives from 1st and 2nd year to do. ? Top Secret Security was 120,000 lines of assembler when I sold it in 1985, the ISPF I write today as a hobby is now at 70,000. ? When it comes to IBM system software, using assembler I can write software faster than anybody in any language. ? Wally ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of carlos feldman
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 04:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [H390-MVS] Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR ? BUT.................. As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic. But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp ? What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
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Re: Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR
Theodore M Rolle Jr wrote: The only language common to all programmers is profanity. (LOL!) Fuckin' ay! ;-) -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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Re: Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR
My favorite languages are PL/X and REXX (nearly 20 years in IBM DB2 for z/OS Development). I have written a lot of programs in PL/I and in Assembler. A fair amount in C. There was one large programming project in Pascal on a VAX, a product in IBM/PC Pascal, and many Turbo Pascal programs for fun. Fortran and COBOL in college but none in the last 45+ years. Intrigued by LISP but never developed any sky -? especially amused when I learned it is an acronym for Lost of Infuriating Single Parenthesis.
Jim
On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 9:36 AM Theodore M Rolle Jr < stercor@...> wrote: The only language common to all programmers is profanity.
Unfortunately, I have to ?disagree with this statement. During my application programming days, i was tasked with writing an application to read an IMS database and plot the facilities on the CALCOMP plotter attached to the mainframe.
The CALCOMP libraries were only available in FORTRAN. So, the main program was written in FORTRAN.
I wrote a COBOL subroutine to read the IMS database for the facilities (poles, transformers, capacitors, and circuit numbers).?
The inputs to the program were the corner square coordinates of the grid corner, and the scale. Greater scale = more facilities.
The app was a smash hit for the ?engineering folks.?
Joe
BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
?
What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
--
?GnuPG/PGP key: 0xDD4276BA
?+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ?| 3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510 ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 58209 74944[59230 78164]06286 20899 86280 +----------------------------------| ?| ? 34825 34211 70679*82148 08651 32823 06647 | ? ?May the spirit ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 09384 46095 50582 23172 53594 08128 48111 ?| ? ? ?of ¦Ð?spread ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 74502 84102 70193 85211 05559 64462 29489 | ? ?around the world. ? ? ? ? | ?| ? 54930 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 | ? ? ?PI VOBISCUM! ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 64823 +---------------------------------| ?| ? 37867 83165 27120 19091 45648 56692 34603 48610 45432 6648... ? ? ? ? | ?+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Re: Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR
The only language common to all programmers is profanity.
Unfortunately, I have to ?disagree with this statement. During my application programming days, i was tasked with writing an application to read an IMS database and plot the facilities on the CALCOMP plotter attached to the mainframe.
The CALCOMP libraries were only available in FORTRAN. So, the main program was written in FORTRAN.
I wrote a COBOL subroutine to read the IMS database for the facilities (poles, transformers, capacitors, and circuit numbers).?
The inputs to the program were the corner square coordinates of the grid corner, and the scale. Greater scale = more facilities.
The app was a smash hit for the ?engineering folks.?
Joe
BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
?
What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
-- ?GnuPG/PGP key: 0xDD4276BA
?+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ?| 3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510 ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 58209 74944[59230 78164]06286 20899 86280 +----------------------------------| ?| ? 34825 34211 70679*82148 08651 32823 06647 | ? ?May the spirit ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 09384 46095 50582 23172 53594 08128 48111 ?| ? ? ?of ¦Ð?spread ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 74502 84102 70193 85211 05559 64462 29489 | ? ?around the world. ? ? ? ? | ?| ? 54930 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 | ? ? ?PI VOBISCUM! ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 64823 +---------------------------------| ?| ? 37867 83165 27120 19091 45648 56692 34603 48610 45432 6648... ? ? ? ? | ?+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Re: Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR
Assembler is the only language I ever learned and loved. ? My university education was a systems programming course. 1st semester was S/370 assembler basics, 2nd semester was writing macros and re-entrant code, for the third and fourth semester our 'textbooks' were the IBM manuals OS/VS2 MVS Supervisor Services and Macro Instructions and OS/VS2 MVS Data Management Macro Instructions. I quit school after 2 years because the job offers were incredible and I still had all my electives from 1st and 2nd year to do. ? Top Secret Security was 120,000 lines of assembler when I sold it in 1985, the ISPF I write today as a hobby is now at 70,000. ? When it comes to IBM system software, using assembler I can write software faster than anybody in any language. ? Wally ? ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of carlos feldman Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 04:21 PM To: [email protected]Subject: [H390-MVS] Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR ? BUT.................. As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic. But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp ? What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
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Re: Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR
On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 06:21:22AM -0800, carlos feldman wrote: What are your programming likes and dislikes ? In junior high and high school I learned BASIC, back when spaghetti code was the norm and GOTO and GOSUB statements took line numbers as arguments. I haven't touched BASIC since. Next I learned Pascal and dBase. Since then I've dabbled with a lot of languages - Perl, PHP, Ruby, C, Python, LISP, Rust, and probably several others I'm forgetting. With the help of Hercules and MVS 3.8J I did start to learn the basics of assembler, but have forgotten most of it. At work I did a little COBOL, Gener/OL, and EasyTrieve programming back in the mainframe days. These days since we've migrated to a descendent of the AS/400, the little programming I've done at work has been in CL and free-format RPG. I'm still searching for a programming language I truly love. The languages I keep turning to and have written the most code in are Perl and Clipper. -- Kevin Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
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Re: Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR
Unfortunately, I have to ?disagree with this statement. During my application programming days, i was tasked with writing an application to read an IMS database and plot the facilities on the CALCOMP plotter attached to the mainframe.
The CALCOMP libraries were only available in FORTRAN. So, the main program was written in FORTRAN.
I wrote a COBOL subroutine to read the IMS database for the facilities (poles, transformers, capacitors, and circuit numbers).?
The inputs to the program were the corner square coordinates of the grid corner, and the scale. Greater scale = more facilities.
The app was a smash hit for the ?engineering folks.?
Joe
BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
?
What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
|
Re: Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR
Basic Assembler Language Rulez! Then C, PHP, SQL, ... and a bunch of others.
I actually wrote a text-processing program (read: cryptology) in FORTRAN. COBOL put bread on the table.
Find the line BSPFCOOK IN USRLOGON and /* comment */ it.
Proper job :-)
Roops
BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
?
What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
-- ?GnuPG/PGP key: 0xDD4276BA
?+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ?| 3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510 ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 58209 74944[59230 78164]06286 20899 86280 +----------------------------------| ?| ? 34825 34211 70679*82148 08651 32823 06647 | ? ?May the spirit ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 09384 46095 50582 23172 53594 08128 48111 ?| ? ? ?of ¦Ð?spread ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 74502 84102 70193 85211 05559 64462 29489 | ? ?around the world. ? ? ? ? | ?| ? 54930 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 | ? ? ?PI VOBISCUM! ? ? ? ? ?| ?| ? 38196 44288 10975 66593 34461 28475 64823 +---------------------------------| ?| ? 37867 83165 27120 19091 45648 56692 34603 48610 45432 6648... ? ? ? ? | ?+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|
Re: Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR
Find the line BSPFCOOK IN USRLOGON and /* comment */ it.
Proper job :-)
Roops
BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
?
What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
|
Real programmers don't write in FORTRAN. FORTRAN is for pipe stress freaks and crystallography weenies. SAYS MY Tk4- COOKIE JAR
BUT..................
As an engineer and also a programmer, I love Fortran, PL/I, C, and even Quick Basic.
But I despise Java, Prolog, Lisp
?
What are your programming likes and dislikes ?
|
Re: Additional MVS 3.8 free software
You're welcome Rob, any problems or questions just let me know. ? Wally ? ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Rob Prins via groups.io Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2020 10:55 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [H390-MVS] Additional MVS 3.8 free software ? Hi Wally,
Thanks for sending a copy of ISPF
I've installed this version and runs like a charm.
Cheers,
Rob
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Re: Additional MVS 3.8 free software
Brian, On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 01:33:42PM -0800, Brian_Westerman@... wrote: I can't find Wally's address either.? Is there a trick to this that makes
it different (and more difficult) than when we were on Yahoo? No, it's the same as Yahoo. If one follows the mailing list via e-mail, one can see everyone\'s address. -- Kevin Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
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Re: Additional MVS 3.8 free software
It appears not being able to find an email address via the web interface must be a privacy feature of groups.io and it appears that everything after an at-sign gets replaced by 3 dots.If you get posts sent to you as emails, that does not happen at least in the ones I receive. try contacting wally<AT>highrock<DOT>com Jim
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Re: Additional MVS 3.8 free software
Hi,
I can't find Wally's address either.? Is there a trick to this that makes it different (and more difficult) than when we were on Yahoo?
How do I find the email address now?
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Re: Additional MVS 3.8 free software
Wow,
? ?Thank you for all this great information. ?I have forgotten all the different systems I was running back in the 80¡¯s on my Army IBM 4381 and two 4341¡¯s. ?Ada would be another great addition to the list. ?
Look forward to see if IBM is receptive to our Hobby. ??
George
P.S. ?I would love to get a copy of your ISPF program.
Thanks again.?
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Re: Additional MVS 3.8 free software
Hi Wally,
Thanks for sending a copy of ISPF
I've installed this version and runs like a charm.
Cheers,
Rob
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Re: Additional MVS 3.8 free software
You can contact wally at wally@...
Hi Wally,
I am very interested in your ISPF version.
I cannot find a proper emailadress to ask a copy.
Do you have a webpage or emailaddress where I can ask a copy of ISPF?
Thanks in advance,
Cheers,
Rob
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Re: Additional MVS 3.8 free software
Hi Wally,
I am very interested in your ISPF version.
I cannot find a proper emailadress to ask a copy.
Do you have a webpage or emailaddress where I can ask a copy of ISPF?
Thanks in advance,
Cheers,
Rob
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Re: Additional MVS 3.8 free software
On 11/25/20 6:11 AM, Henk Stegeman wrote:
I would love to see SDSF (the field developed version with source code before it became an IBM PP).
Anyone ?
QUEUE does about the same.? I think it could be incrementally could be converted to take the input and do the output like SDSF. It's one my (long) list of interesting things. I just have not taken the time to descend down that (or another dozen S/370) rabbit holes. -- Drew Derbyshire "While the ANSI X3J11 committee puts the beginning of all time at 1 January 1970, we now know through extensive research that time actually started much earlier than this . . ." -- Tools.h++ V5.1 Class Reference
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Re: Additional MVS 3.8 free software
I think the Revout function of Review - which I invoke in my ISPF - does a pretty good job of displaying and managing JES 2 output. ? Wally ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Henk Stegeman Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2020 04:11 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [H390-MVS] Additional MVS 3.8 free software ? I would love to see SDSF (the field developed version with source code before it became an IBM PP).
Anyone ? Henk On 25-11-2020 14:35, Wally Mclaughlin wrote: You forgot to mention ISPF for MVS 3.8 which I've written from scratch and is available to anyone who emails me - ? The product was written for MVS 3.8 and attempts to re-create the functionality of ISPF from that era.? The product supports many of the familiar features of ISPF, such as menus, panels, variables, messages, tables, ISPF commands and PFKeys, thereby providing the look and feel of the original ISPF. ???? ISPF Version 3.2 was used as the basis for development, although some features from subsequent versions, such as AREA support, are included.?? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? The product does not perform any of the functions of the IBM Program Product PDF. Instead, it invokes Review as an ISPF application to perform browse, edit and other functions. ? Wally ? ? ? Oh, how I would love for IBM to release later versions of MVS to hobbyists
some day. I'd even be happy if they just released some MVS 3.8J level
program products like compilers and CICS to hobbyists.
I would love it too, and to me it would only help IBM get great PR as a result, without impacting their installed base.? Still we do have a fair bit to freely play with even in our ancient environment:
? * (older) COBOL and PL/I compilers
? * the IFOX00 Assembler
? * the ASSIST Assembler
? * Other compilers in the SYSCPK
? * VSAM implementation
? * BREXX
? * RPF/RFE productivity environments (for ISPF)
? * KICKS for TSO (CICS replacement) - Did you know that's available for MVS 3.8J/TK4-?? Moshix has a video on installation.
Here's the way I look at it - It's fun to be able to play around with software that's pushing 50 years old (for our sort routine, it's even older!!) and find out what it's still capable of.? Myself I took assembly language as a college course for the MC68000 chip decades ago and have done nothing with it since - it's good brain exercise to try out my assembly skills on a completely different platform and instruction set.? I consider it a challenge to develop a working application without a database driving it and using a compiler that's almost as old as I am.? JCL was something I dealt with and conquered decades ago under XA and promptly forgot once I left the mainframe environment.? And I've always had an underlying respect and appreciation for the mainframe platform itself since I got a work/study job as a college student where I was able to operate the University's excellent mainframe-based administrative systems.
It's also easy on the wallet to gather this knowledge from older editions of manuals freely available on bitsavers or from books available at dirt cheap prices from AbeBooks and ThriftBooks.?
Finally, It's a hobby that keeps me from mentally going nuts with this whole COVID lockdown.? It gives me great ways to spend my spare time.?
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Jim Ruddy
Theodore M Rolle Jr
carlos feldman
George T Alger Jr.
Rob Prins