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Re: MTS under VM/ESA

 

On 7 Feb 2025, at 15:38, Mike Ward wrote:

aa is the version code; these two digits are forced to X'FF' to identify that the virtual machine is running under VM/370.

Not necessarily VM/370, it could be some other virtual machine. For example the MTS virtual machine also sets the first byte of the CPU ID to FF. If MTS is going to close its printers when a job is done, it will need a reliable way to determine if the VM it is running on supports that feature. We would also need to know how to actually do that. Presumably some diagnose instruction, but I have no idea which one.

Mike
Re: MTS under VM/ESA

 

Tony Harminc wrote:

Are you sure you're not thinking of virtual memory handshaking?
No. I was talking about VM print spool handshaking. The guest (in this case MTS), when run under VM, being able to close its VM printer to cause its printouts to appear as separate VM spool files that the VM user could then do what they wish with. (i.e. print to VM's real printer, purge it, transfer it to their VM user's reader so they could read it in to their 'A' disk and look at it, etc).

That was the original topic of this thread after all, yes?


This was implemented long ago by end users for everything from
MVT to VS1 to DOS/VS, and only later by IBM. This is about
avoiding double paging, and having VM notify the guest when a
storage reference requires VM to bring in a page from disk, so
that the guest can dispatch another task instead of the entire
multi-tasking guest being forced to wait.
That's a completely different type of VM handshaking. AFAIK we weren't talking about that. We were talking about only the VM print spool handshaking. Yes?


This has nothing to do with closing SPOOL files and the like,
which is pretty trivial to implement.
I agree the two topics are completely different from one another, but AFAIK closing spool files and the like WAS what we were talking about, yes? Unless I missed something and the topic changed to something else midstream?

<me: confused by your reply>

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: MTS under VM/ESA

 

On Sat, 8 Feb 2025 at 00:48, Fish Fish via <david.b.trout=[email protected]> wrote:
René Ferland wrote:
> Fish wrote:
>
> > AFAIK all IBM operating systems do this
>
> Except for MUSIC/SP, none of the vintage systems we have
> implement handshaking.

Really? Wow. Maybe the ones we have were before VM's time?

No - the VM we have is of roughly the same vintage as the OS/VS and DOS OSs.
?
> If I am not mistaken, George Shedlock added handshaking to
> DOS/VS R34,

REALLY?! Again, WOW. I specifically recall the option being there when I was working with DOS/VS(E) back in the day. I guess back then it was something new that IBM had just recently added? I mean, I can understand earlier versions not having it (not even IBM operating systems are psychic after all, being able to predict the future), but I would have thought that virtually all of their later versions would have had it.

Are you sure you're not thinking of virtual memory handshaking? This was implemented long ago by end users for everything from MVT to VS1 to DOS/VS, and only later by IBM. This is about avoiding double paging, and having VM notify the guest when a storage reference reqires VM to bring in a page from disk, so that the guest can dispatch another task instead of the entire multi-tasking guest being forced to wait.

This has nothing to do with closing SPOOL files and the like, which is pretty trivial to implement.

Tony H.
Re: MTS under VM/ESA

 

René Ferland wrote:
Fish wrote:

AFAIK all IBM operating systems do this
Except for MUSIC/SP, none of the vintage systems we have
implement handshaking.
Really? Wow. Maybe the ones we have were before VM's time?


If I am not mistaken, George Shedlock added handshaking to
DOS/VS R34,
REALLY?! Again, WOW. I specifically recall the option being there when I was working with DOS/VS(E) back in the day. I guess back then it was something new that IBM had just recently added? I mean, I can understand earlier versions not having it (not even IBM operating systems are psychic after all, being able to predict the future), but I would have thought that virtually all of their later versions would have had it.


and Bob Polmanter did so for MVS 3.8J. To my knowledge,
there is no handshaking in DOS/360, MVT, OS/VS1, and MTS.
A work around for these systems (when run under VM) is
to use dedicated printers (and punches), something easy
to do when VM runs under Hercules, maybe not that much
on a real system. :-)
Quite right. It's not possible to have *every* VM guest use the real printer at the same time. :)


Cheers,

Rene FERLAND, Montreal

P.S. -- From the manual "Introduction to DOS/VS Release 34"
we learn, on page 124, that handshaking was provided by a
licensed product called "Advanced Functions", which explains
why it is not in the operating system we get after a sysgen
from the tapes we have.
Ah yes! I forgot about AF. My bad. The version of DOS/VSE we had was a not-yet-released still-under-development pre-AF version of DOS/VSE. (Our president was a former IBM'er and managed to get a copy of DOS/VSE before AF was officially released.) I guess that's why we had it.

My bad.

But I hope my point was made: once the feature became available, it *was* eventually incorporated into virtually all subsequent releases/versions of IBM's most popular operating systems. Perhaps not ALL of them, but most of them I suspect. And given how easy it was to do too, I can't see why ALL of the older vintage IBM operating systems that are run on Hercules today wouldn't have it. It's such a very simple tiny change.

Anyway, don't mind me. Sorry to bother you all. Just passing through. I'll go away now and leave you guys alone. :)

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: MTS under VM/ESA

 

On Fri, Feb 7, 2025 at 11:06 AM, Fish Fish wrote:
AFAIK all IBM operating systems do this
Except for MUSIC/SP, none of the vintage systems we have implement handshaking. If I am not mistaken, George Shedlock added handshaking to DOS/VS R34, and Bob Polmanter did so for MVS 3.8J. To my knowledge, there is no handshaking in DOS/360, MVT, OS/VS1, and MTS. A work around for these systems (when run under VM) is to use dedicated printers (and punches), something easy to do when VM runs under Hercules, maybe not that much on a real system. :-)
?
Cheers,
?
Rene FERLAND, Montreal
?
P.S. -- From the manual "Introduction to DOS/VS Release 34" we learn, on page 124, that handshaking was provided by a licensed product called "Advanced Functions", which explains why it is not in the operating system we get after a sysgen from the tapes we have.
Re: MTS under VM/ESA

 

Adding in:


QUERY

CPUID = aabbbbbbccccdddd

Where:

aabbbbbbccccdddd
is the 16-digit processor identification associated with the
virtual machine.

aa is the version code; these two digits are forced to X'FF' to
identify that the virtual machine is running under VM/370.

bbbbbb is the processor identification number; this field contains
six hexadecimal digits. This is the only part of the CPUID
that can be modified by means of the SET CPUID command or set
by the VM/370 directory's OPTION contrel statement.

cccc is the model number; this field contains a leftmost digit of 0
followed by three digits of the wodel number (0-9;. This
field defaults to the model number of the real machine.

dddd is the machine check extended logout; this field is forced to
X'OOOO' since CP does not reflect machine checks back to the
virtual machine.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Mike Ward
Sent: Friday, February 7, 2025 2:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] MTS under VM/ESA

If I remember correctly you can use the STIDP store processor ID instruction and the info you get back (I think it's high values at the end X'FF' means it's running under VM.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Fish Fish via groups.io
Sent: Friday, February 7, 2025 1:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] MTS under VM/ESA

Mike Alexander wrote:
René Ferland wrote:

Will it implement handshaking? That is, will MTS automatically close
the spooled printer files so it will be printed by the real printer
of VM?
No. It has no special support for VM. It treats VM like a funny sort
of real machine.
Most operating systems are largely, but not completely, unaware that they are running under a virtual machine such as VM, and rightly so. BUT... in a few specific places they, IMHO, do need to be aware of it. Closing their spooled printers between jobs is one such place. AFAIK all IBM operating systems do this, and IMHO so should MTS too, if/when it's run under VM.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: MTS under VM/ESA

 

If I remember correctly you can use the STIDP store processor ID instruction and the info you get back (I think it's high values at the end X'FF' means it's running under VM.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Fish Fish via groups.io
Sent: Friday, February 7, 2025 1:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] MTS under VM/ESA

Mike Alexander wrote:
René Ferland wrote:

Will it implement handshaking? That is, will MTS automatically close
the spooled printer files so it will be printed by the real printer
of VM?
No. It has no special support for VM. It treats VM like a funny sort
of real machine.
Most operating systems are largely, but not completely, unaware that they are running under a virtual machine such as VM, and rightly so. BUT... in a few specific places they, IMHO, do need to be aware of it. Closing their spooled printers between jobs is one such place. AFAIK all IBM operating systems do this, and IMHO so should MTS too, if/when it's run under VM.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: MTS under VM/ESA

 

Mike Alexander wrote:
René Ferland wrote:

Will it implement handshaking? That is, will MTS automatically
close the spooled printer files so it will be printed by the
real printer of VM?
No. It has no special support for VM. It treats VM like a funny
sort of real machine.
Most operating systems are largely, but not completely, unaware that they are running under a virtual machine such as VM, and rightly so. BUT... in a few specific places they, IMHO, do need to be aware of it. Closing their spooled printers between jobs is one such place. AFAIK all IBM operating systems do this, and IMHO so should MTS too, if/when it's run under VM.

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: MTS under VM/ESA

 

On 7 Feb 2025, at 0:22, René Ferland via groups.io wrote:

Will it implement handshaking? That is, will MTS automatically close the spooled printer files so it will be printed by the real printer of VM?

No. It has no special support for VM. It treats VM like a funny sort of real machine.

Mike
Re: MTS under VM/ESA

 

On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 09:13 PM, Mike Alexander wrote:
It will be aware that it is running under VM and may change its behavior in a few ways, mostly dealing with error recovery.
Will it implement handshaking? That is, will MTS automatically close the spooled printer files so it will be printed by the real printer of VM?
?
Cheers,
?
Rene FERLAND, Montreal
Re: MTS under VM/ESA

 

This should work fine. MTS sometimes ran in production under VM back in the day although I don't think it ever did so at UM. It will be aware that it is running under VM and may change its behavior in a few ways, mostly dealing with error recovery. However, this may not be too useful since it won't have any support for TCP/IP.

Mike

On 6 Feb 2025, at 8:40, Jay Maynard via groups.io wrote:

I have a Multiprise 3000 system and, now, lots of spare disk space. It struck me a few moments ago that I can now run MTS on it. The system currently runs VM/ESA 2.4, z/OS 1.5, VSE/ESA 2.4, and MVS/XA 2.2.3, all snappily enough for a small number of users.

Will MTS use VM for anything beyond a simple hypervisor? MUSIC/SP does, since it needs the VM IUCV to talk to the VM TCP/IP stack, but I don't recall what considerations there are for MTS.
MTS under VM/ESA

 

I have a Multiprise 3000 system and, now, lots of spare disk space. It struck me a few moments ago that I can now run MTS on it. The system currently runs VM/ESA 2.4, z/OS 1.5, VSE/ESA 2.4, and MVS/XA 2.2.3, all snappily enough for a small number of users.

Will MTS use VM for anything beyond a simple hypervisor? MUSIC/SP does, since it needs the VM IUCV to talk to the VM TCP/IP stack, but I don't recall what considerations there are for MTS.

--
Jay Maynard
Re: [hercules-390] HIM Support for Hercules 4.8

 

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Fish's description is correct, but unfortunately it's only half the story. It wxplains how to configure HIM support in Hercules, but you also have to configure it in MTS. The D6.0 MTS device configuration doesn't contain any HIM devices. This is because we (perhaps incorrectly) didn't think that the D6 version of MTS supported them. I was surprised to discover recently that there is a version of the HIM code on the D6 tapes, but I don't know to what extent it works. We could, of corse, find out, but I'd rather spend my time working on getting the 1996 system out than tweaking D6.0.

The three types of HIM devices are all the same in Hercules. TheMTS device type is used to select the appropriate DSP for the connection (Telnet, TCP, or UDP). While you can use the MTS Mount command to allocate one of these, this is not usually necessary since the command you are using allocates them implicitly. For example the FTP command allocates various TCP and Telnet devices as appropriate.

Mike

On 29 Jan 2025, at 22:38, Fish Fish via groups.io wrote:

John Palmer wrote:

[...]

Do you have the proper settings for the hercules.cnf to activate
the HIM code for d6.0?

Hi John!

While Mike would certainly be the person to provide a definitive answer to that, I believe I might be able to help you, having reviewed his code before having approved it for inclusion into Hercules.

If you take a look at "Supported Device Types" table on our Configuration File web page (), you will see there are three new device types that are now supported: TLNT, TCPH and UDPH.

While I have no idea what the difference is between the three (since I know absolutely nothing about MTS!), if you click on the link provided in the "Emulated by" column, it should take you to:

where it states:

"These device types emulate the Host Interface Machine (HIM)
devices that are used to connect a host running The Michigan
Terminal System (MTS) to the Internet. The device type (TLNT,
TCPH, or UDPH) should match the device type configured into MTS."

"The only parameter is the IP address the emulated interface
should bind to."

So simply defining one or more of those devices in your Hercules configuration files looks like all you need to activate the new HIM code. Herc's sample configuration even lists three examples:

621-62B   UDPH     10.0.0.46
62C-643   TLNT     10.0.0.46
644-64F   TCPH     10.0.0.46

As I said, I don't know the particulars regarding which type to use nor how many of them you need to define (since that's an MTS thing), I suspect anyone familiar with MTS, such as you, would know.

Hope that helps!

I know the TCP/IP support in d6.0 is primitive, but I'd like to
play around with it.

So would I! But I know absolutely NOTHING about MTS, and unfortunately don't really have the time to learn it. :(

(That's the drawback of being a Hercules developer: you spend all your time working on Hercules with no free time left over to actually PLAY with Hercules! It's you Hercules users that get to have all the fun.)

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: [hercules-390] HIM Support for Hercules 4.8

 

John Palmer wrote:

[...]
Do you have the proper settings for the hercules.cnf to activate
the HIM code for d6.0?
Hi John!

While Mike would certainly be the person to provide a definitive answer to that, I believe I might be able to help you, having reviewed his code before having approved it for inclusion into Hercules.

If you take a look at "Supported Device Types" table on our Configuration File web page (), you will see there are three new device types that are now supported: TLNT, TCPH and UDPH.

While I have no idea what the difference is between the three (since I know absolutely *nothing* about MTS!), if you click on the link provided in the "Emulated by" column, it should take you to:

*

where it states:

"These device types emulate the Host Interface Machine (HIM)
devices that are used to connect a host running The Michigan
Terminal System (MTS) to the Internet. The device type (TLNT,
TCPH, or UDPH) should match the device type configured into MTS."

"The only parameter is the IP address the emulated interface
should bind to."


So simply defining one or more of those devices in your Hercules configuration files looks like all you need to activate the new HIM code. Herc's sample configuration even lists three examples:

621-62B UDPH 10.0.0.46
62C-643 TLNT 10.0.0.46
644-64F TCPH 10.0.0.46

As I said, I don't know the particulars regarding which type to use nor how many of them you need to define (since that's an MTS thing), I suspect anyone familiar with MTS, such as you, would know.

Hope that helps!


I know the TCP/IP support in d6.0 is primitive, but I'd like to
play around with it.
So would I! But I know absolutely NOTHING about MTS, and unfortunately don't really have the time to learn it. :(

(That's the drawback of being a Hercules developer: you spend all your time working on Hercules with no free time left over to actually PLAY with Hercules! It's you Hercules users that get to have all the fun.)

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories

mail: fish@...
Re: [hercules-390] HIM Support for Hercules 4.8

 

Looks like your pull request has been committed to the development branch of Hercules.
?
It looks like the d6.0 distribution has support for TCP/IP. The Telnet manager is running (*TCM file job).??
?
Do you have the proper settings for the hercules.cnf to activate the HIM code for d6.0???
?
I know the? TCP/IP support in d6.0 is primitive, but I'd like to play around with it.
?
Thanks
Re: [hercules-390] HIM Support for Hercules 4.8

 

Thanks for your effort on this,? Mike.? I'm sure just about everything else takes precedence over this.?
?
John
Re: [hercules-390] HIM Support for Hercules 4.8

 

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I just submitted a pull request for the HIM code. I'm sure there will be issues with it. I'll fix them as soon as I can, but note that I will be out of town with limited network access from this Monday (Oct 28) through November 17.

The source branch for the pull is MTS-HIM-device on my fork at git@...:mtalexander/SDL-hyperion.git.

Mike

On 30 Sep 2024, at 10:39, John Palmer wrote:

Just wondering about the status of the code merge for Hercules.?
?
Are there still unresolved issues with getting the HIM code to work with modern Hercules???
?
If the current code with HIM support is available in a GIT repository somewhere, I'd be willing to take a look at it.? I've done C/C++ programming in the past
?
John
(also posted to H390-MTS)
Will HIM support be ready for Hercules 4.8?

 

Just wondering about the status of the code merge for Hercules.?
?
Are there still unresolved issues with getting the HIM code to work with modern Hercules???
?
If the current code with HIM support is available in a GIT repository somewhere, I'd be willing to take a look at it.? I've done C/C++ programming in the past
?
John
?
Is there a version of Java that runs on MTS

 


Does anyone know if there was an effort to create a Java JVM for MTS?? If so, does anyone know if the effort was a success and is its available somewhere?
------- Forwarded Message -------
From: Lucien Hoydic <illuce@...>
Date: On Friday, September 20th, 2024 at 1:34 PM
Subject: Is there a version of Java that runs on MTS
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>

Does anyone know if there was an effort to create a Java JVM for MTS?? If so, does anyone know if the effort was a success and is its available somewhere?
?
Re: Is there a newer version of MTS available

 

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No release date has been set yet. I'll let you know when we get closer.

Mike

On 15 Aug 2024, at 1:04, Lucien Hoydic wrote:

Hello:

Just wondering when the newest version of MTS will be released for Hercules. Going over the messages on the list, I wasn't able to find a release date.

Thank You?
--Lucien
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