Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
I would like to add some information to this discussion. When you
attach a 3270 telnet device (which is what you are doing when you
configure a 3270 type device), the device is creating a session with a
TN3270 server implemented within Hercules. The built-in TN3270 server
interacts with the 3270 CCW driver within Hercules.
There are two very different versions of Hercules here: 3.x and 4.x.
There was a lot of work done in version 4 related to telnet based
communications. In version 4.x, the TN3270 server is implemented with
the help of an external package whereas in 3.x the server was totally
part of Hercules. The two versions _are_ different.
It is entirely possible that Hercules 4.x is working as designed, but
triggering a very negative response in MTS when Vista is the client.
Why might 3.x work? 3.x may, by happenstance, be shielding MTS from
whatever Vista is sending that MTS does not like. ?
Is it working as designed? a bug? and which component?
This will be a challenge to resolve.
Harold Grovesteen
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On Mon, 2023-09-18 at 01:01 -0700, Fish Fish wrote: John Palmer wrote:
There is no mode in which using Vista 3270 as the master
console works without causing a superdump in the early stages
of IPL of MTS when running Hercules 4.x.
Note, this is not the case for Hercules 3.x (3.06, 3.13). They
don't exhibit this behavior. Then it certainly sounds like there is a bug in SDL Hercules which
needs to be investigated!
I will see about opening a ticket in order to help diagnose the
problem. Thank you. I would appreciate that very much.
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
John Palmer wrote: There is no mode in which using Vista 3270 as the master
console works without causing a superdump in the early stages
of IPL of MTS when running Hercules 4.x.
Note, this is not the case for Hercules 3.x (3.06, 3.13). They
don't exhibit this behavior. Then it certainly sounds like there is a bug in SDL Hercules which needs to be investigated! I will see about opening a ticket in order to help diagnose the problem. Thank you. I would appreciate that very much. -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
There is no mode in which using Vista 3270 as the master console works without causing a superdump in the early stages of IPL of MTS when running Hercules 4.x.?
Note, this is not the case for Hercules 3.x (3.06, 3.13). They don't exhibit this behavior.
I will see about opening a ticket in order to help diagnose the problem.
John
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On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 01:00 AM, Fish Fish wrote:
(*) If I'm understanding things correctly, the problem stems from your connecting a non-standard 3270 model-2 (24x80) device to MTS's "master console", yes? That if you define your Vista 3270 terminal as a normal model-2 (24x80) 3270 device, then it works fine, yes? That the problem only occurs when you connect your Vista 3270 to MTS's master console address as a 3279 model-5 (132x80) device, then the problem occurs, yes? If that's the case (if what I said is true), then that would be classified as PEBKAC IMO.
If that's NOT the case however (if what I wrote above is wrong), then I would appreciate your help with debugging this.
Thanks.
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
mail: fish@...
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
John Palmer wrote: [...] I never would have guessed that it would be the choice of
terminal software that would be the cause of the problem <snip> I would never have guessed it either! AND... in the interest of not repeating myself, I would *really* like to get to the bottom of this! If Hercules has a bug in its 3270 display terminal handling, I would *very* much like to identify it and get it fixed: * * If you don't want to go to that trouble, I understand. But it would really mean a lot, and I'm sure others would benefit. Thanks. On the other hand, if the problem is instead a simple case of PEBKAC(*), then forget it. ;-) -------------------- (*) If I'm understanding things correctly, the problem stems from your connecting a non-standard 3270 model-2 (24x80) device to MTS's "master console", yes? That if you define your Vista 3270 terminal as a normal model-2 (24x80) 3270 device, then it works fine, yes? That the problem only occurs when you connect your Vista 3270 to MTS's master console address as a 3279 model-5 (132x80) device, then the problem occurs, yes? If that's the case (if what I said is true), then that would be classified as PEBKAC IMO. If that's NOT the case however (if what I wrote above is wrong), then I would appreciate your help with debugging this. Thanks. -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
Jeff - After discovering the 3270 terminal software issue last week, I've come to the conclusion that the issue is caused by using the Vista 3270 terminal software as the operators console (unit 001) during the initial bootstrap of MTS.
As Tom V. said, there are different pieces of driver code running 3270's depending on which phase of the IPL process is happening. It appears that the combination of Vista 3270 -> Hercules 4.x -> MTS d6.0a has issues when used as
the operator's console during the very initial phases on the IPL process.
?
I got it to work by using Mocha 3270 as the operator's console. I can use Vista 3270 just fine for the regular terminals.
I have had d6.0 running just fine under Hercules 4.7 (devel branch) on Centos 7 and NetBSD 9.3 (under an Antsle VM) and Ubuntu 22.04 on an AWS VM.?
I never would have guessed that it would be the choice of terminal software that would be the cause of the problem and tried Mocha as a last resort because I couldn't think of anything else to try.
John
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On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 04:34 PM, Jeff Snyder wrote:
Hey John,
On my Ubuntu VM test, I used the local x3270 on the console (DS01) and WC3270 from my Windows system on the interactive user session (DS02).
Jeff
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
Hey John,
On my Ubuntu VM test, I used the local x3270 on the console (DS01) and WC3270 from my Windows system on the interactive user session (DS02).
Jeff
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
On Sep 12, 2023, at 12:24 PM, John Palmer <jpalmer@...> wrote: You¡¯re not going to believe this (or maybe some will). ? I¡¯m used to trying long shots to get things to work, and I came up with an idea and said ¡°¡ nah ¨C that can¡¯t be it¡±. ? So, I¡¯m using Vista TN3270 and my 3270 terminal software.? I was wondering if that was causing the issue somehow. ? So, I got a different program. ? I started Hercule 4.7 on my Ubuntu AWS instance and connected with the new software and ¡ the system starts just fine and runs. ? So, somehow, the Vista 3270 software -> Hercules 4.x? -> MTS is a bad combination. ? Bizarre.
Interesting!
What TN3270 software do you all use? The one that I have that works is Mocha TN3270, but it has hideos fonts.
I mostly use ¡®x3270¡¯ here on macOS, and have also played a bit with ¡®c3270¡¯. At one point I think I looked into using ¡¯tn3270¡¯, but it doesn¡¯t look like that has been updated since 2013 and the binary for that doesn¡¯t run on modern versions of macOS.
--?
Ron Frederick
ronf@...
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
You¡¯re not going to believe this (or maybe some will). ? I¡¯m used to trying long shots to get things to work, and I came up with an idea and said ¡°¡ nah ¨C that can¡¯t be it¡±. ? So, I¡¯m using Vista TN3270 and my 3270 terminal software.? I was wondering if that was causing the issue somehow. ? So, I got a different program. ? I started Hercule 4.7 on my Ubuntu AWS instance and connected with the new software and ¡ the system starts just fine and runs. ? So, somehow, the Vista 3270 software -> Hercules 4.x? -> MTS is a bad combination. ? Bizarre. ? What TN3270 software do you all use? The one that I have that works is Mocha TN3270, but it has hideos fonts. ?
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From: John Palmer <jpalmer@...>
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 21:09
To: '[email protected]' <[email protected]>
Subject: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials? Thought I would migrate this discussion over to the MTS list as the Hercules list is too general. ? So, I have had no luck running the standard d6.0A MTS distribution under any type of VM. ? It does work fine on all of these machines/VMs using Hercules 3.06 and 3.13 ? All of my SDL Hercules builds were built with the ¡°hercules-helper¡± scripts which builds the current devel branch (currently 4.7). ? Systems I have tried: ? Ubuntu 22.04 on AWS NetBSD 9.3 running on an Antsle VM Box. CentOS 7 running on an Antsle VM Box. ? I haven¡¯t had time yet to haul out one of my old rack servers to install NetBSD or Ubuntu on bare hardware, but may try that soon. ? I¡¯m going to get the lbltp program now and capture the super dump. If anyone knows how I can look at this or if someone wants to see it, let me know. ? I don¡¯t mind digging into this, being a programmer of? 40 years, but not sure which thread to start pulling on.? If anyone has an idea of what might cause this to fail in virtual environments, let me know.? I will follow any clues. ? Thanks
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
On Sep 9, 2023, at 1:23 PM, Jeff Snyder <jsnyder1369@...> wrote: I know nothing about MTS, but I played with it once out of curiosity to get it up and running.? Since I still had the image laying around, I tried running it on Hercules 4.7 running in an Ubuntu 22.04 Hyper-V VM on Windows 10.? MTS appeared to run fine.? It IPLed, I was able to log on as ST01 and do some of the things described at try-mts.com, and I shut it back down.
Hercules was version "Hercules version 4.7.0.10956-SDL-DEV-g1645bfa2", built using hercules-helper on 6/18/2023.? Not bleeding edge, but I don't use that Linux/Hercules all that often.? If necessary, I can upgrade to current and run the test again.
I'll attach the log and config files so you can see what I did.
I can confirm that I have d6.0a running here as well, on an M1 Ultra Mac Studio running macOS 13.5.1. The hercules version is?4.7.0.11007-SDL-DEV-gcddce71b building using Hercules-Helper?v0.9.14-43-g88ec36e-dirty back in July.
In addition to doing the IPL and some basic commands including creating my own account, I also left it running for a day or two to see if it would crash after some period of time. It didn¡¯t ¡ª it remained stable the whole time until I manually shut it down.
There are some differences in my config vs. Jeff¡¯s, so I¡¯ve included mine here as another data point.
--?
Ron Frederick
ronf@...
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Re: Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
Hi John,
I know nothing about MTS, but I played with it once out of curiosity to get it up and running.? Since I still had the image laying around, I tried running it on Hercules 4.7 running in an Ubuntu 22.04 Hyper-V VM on Windows 10.? MTS appeared to run fine.? It IPLed, I was able to log on as ST01 and do some of the things described at try-mts.com, and I shut it back down.
Hercules was version "Hercules version 4.7.0.10956-SDL-DEV-g1645bfa2", built using hercules-helper on 6/18/2023.? Not bleeding edge, but I don't use that Linux/Hercules all that often.? If necessary, I can upgrade to current and run the test again.
I'll attach the log and config files so you can see what I did.
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Dump file available after SDL Hercules crash
OK ¨C I was able to get the? dump file.? ? Zipped up, its 1.6mb.? ? John
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Issues Running MTS on SDL Hercules (Hyperion) 4.x - Summary of Trials
Thought I would migrate this discussion over to the MTS list as the Hercules list is too general. ? So, I have had no luck running the standard d6.0A MTS distribution under any type of VM. ? It does work fine on all of these machines/VMs using Hercules 3.06 and 3.13 ? All of my SDL Hercules builds were built with the ¡°hercules-helper¡± scripts which builds the current devel branch (currently 4.7). ? Systems I have tried: ? Ubuntu 22.04 on AWS NetBSD 9.3 running on an Antsle VM Box. CentOS 7 running on an Antsle VM Box. ? I haven¡¯t had time yet to haul out one of my old rack servers to install NetBSD or Ubuntu on bare hardware, but may try that soon. ? I¡¯m going to get the lbltp program now and capture the super dump. If anyone knows how I can look at this or if someone wants to see it, let me know. ? I don¡¯t mind digging into this, being a programmer of? 40 years, but not sure which thread to start pulling on.? If anyone has an idea of what might cause this to fail in virtual environments, let me know.? I will follow any clues. ? Thanks
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On 21 Aug 2023, at 1:57, Marco Antoniotti wrote: ok, but why did the site disappear?? Somebody at Michigan U rearranged the sites?? Scrapped everything? It was a GOogle Sites site and Google closed down that service. Mike
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Hi...
ok, but why did the site disappear?? Somebody at Michigan U rearranged the sites?? Scrapped everything?
All the
-- Marco Antoniotti
Somewhere over the Rainbow
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Dave Wade wrote: Fish wrote: [...] *
QeWDYN2QwMGU4NWMtMTRiYS00ZTc5LWIyOWUtNTg0YjQyOWIxY2I4
[...] Jeff Ogden one of the MTS team confirms its current
and work is ongoing to fix the web sites. Cool! Thanks. I've got my mitts involved in several different things at the moment (as usual) so it might be a while yet before I can get around to giving it a try. But rest assured I will! -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Fish Fish
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2023 9:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] Download Site
Dave Wade wrote:
All the MTS archive sites appear to have gone.
Can MTS still be downloaded? I found a copy on the Internet Archive's Wayback machine, but I have no idea whether it's the "current" one or not. I simply presume it is. It's "d6.0A". Is that the current version?
*
michiganterminalsystem/mts-d60A
Click on FEB 9 (the last snapshot they made), takes you to:
*
michiganterminalsystem/mts-d60A
Which displays the archived web page.
From there, clicking the download link takes you to:
*
id=0B4t_NX-
QeWDYN2QwMGU4NWMtMTRiYS00ZTc5LWIyOWUtNTg0YjQyOWIxY2I4
Where a non-clickable Google Drive download link (that must be manually
copied and pasted into your browser) is presented.
Using THAT URL:
*
QeWDYN2QwMGU4NWMtMTRiYS00ZTc5LWIyOWUtNTg0YjQyOWIxY2I4
will eventually get you to the Google Drive web page where you can then
FINALLY download the actual distribution from.
It's a 79.1MB download, and *appears* to be the current d6.0a distribution, but not being that "up" on MTS, I can't say for sure. Only someone from the MTS group who is familiar with MTS distributions will be able to tell for sure.
Hope that helps!
Jeff Ogden one of the MTS team confirms its current an work is ongoing to fix the web sites
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
mail: fish@...
Dave
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Dave Wade wrote: All the MTS archive sites appear to have gone.
Can MTS still be downloaded? I found a copy on the Internet Archive's Wayback machine, but I have no idea whether it's the "current" one or not. I simply presume it is. It's "d6.0A". Is that the current version? * Click on FEB 9 (the last snapshot they made), takes you to: * Which displays the archived web page. From there, clicking the download link takes you to: * Where a non-clickable Google Drive download link (that must be manually copied and pasted into your browser) is presented. Using THAT URL: * will eventually get you to the Google Drive web page where you can then FINALLY download the actual distribution from. It's a 79.1MB download, and *appears* to be the current d6.0a distribution, but not being that "up" on MTS, I can't say for sure. Only someone from the MTS group who is familiar with MTS distributions will be able to tell for sure. Hope that helps! -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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The following files and folders have been uploaded to the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Doug Wegscheid <dwegscheid@...>
Description:
D6.0 DASD images, ready to run under Hercules.
The following files and folders have been uploaded to the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Doug Wegscheid <dwegscheid@...>
Description:
Version AN302 (2012.01.30) of a Hercules config for D6.0a.zip (slightly newer than the one in the ZIP file)
The following files and folders have been uploaded to the Files area of the [email protected] group.
By: Doug Wegscheid <dwegscheid@...>
Description:
A PDF of the now-defunct https://sites.google.com/site/michiganterminalsystem/mts-d60A
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On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 02:55 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
I have enabled member upload to files..
Thanks, Dave!
ok. It's all in the file section! Enjoi!
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Thanks Doug ? I have been trying to get that to work¡ .. I have enabled member upload to files.. ? Dave ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Doug Wegscheid
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2023 7:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [H390-MTS] Download Site? Ha. Even better: the PDF had a link in it pointing to D6.0A.ZIP in google.drive. I put it to the files section of this group; it chews up a bit of our 1GB allocation, but I think it's important enough to warrant the dent in the DASD budget.
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Ron Frederick
Marco Antoniotti