Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 08:51 PM, Frank Wielgus wrote:
Interesting results.
Once the troubleshooter started recording, I went to a bright star via the HC and synched.? During this time, error messages were flashing rather quickly with time out, com errors etc. After syncing I slewed just passed the meridian and tried to flip - which it did not.? The error messages never stopped. I then stopped everything. I did not get these messages before.? File is attached.
Thanks, Frank.? The logs show all the settings and configuration, and I'm still unable to see anything that would cause the no flip behavior. Maybe Ren¨¦?can take a look. The comm errors you saw were related to the troubleshooter and Gemini.NET driver trying to poll the mount simultaneously while running in the 'record activity' mode. I've made a fix for this for a future version of the driver, but it shouldn't affect anything other than the occasional popup messages. I do see your tests to flip the mount, and as before, Gemini reports success but doesn't flip, HA=0.1826:
Tracking=True
Nudge from Safety=True
Eastern Safety Limit=094d00
Western Safety Limit=094d00
Goto Limit=002d30
AtHome=False
AtPark=False
Status Byte=5
At Safety Limit=False
Side of Pier=W
####### HA=0.189758 before flip request, mount is tracking #########08:40:17.184: ENQ 0 Macro=557783;389867;6.265307;+31.833485;+0.189758;195.535668;+80.937333;T;T;N;W;6.455065;0;0;276.106358;5;00090B10;-1;0;5;0;
####### Sent flip request, received 0 => OK #########
08:40:17.184: TRANSMITED=:Mf#
08:40:17.184: RECEIVED=:Mf#=0
####### Mount continues to track towards the safety limit, no flip has occurred #########
08:40:17.685: ENQ 0 Macro=557769;389867;6.265302;+31.833485;+0.189902;195.547123;+80.936885;T;T;N;W;6.455205;0;0;275.582792;5;00090B10;-1;0;6;0;
08:40:18.187: ENQ 0 Macro=557756;389867;6.265306;+31.833485;+0.190038;195.557759;+80.936475;T;T;N;W;6.455344;0;0;275.096623;5;00090B10;-1;0;5;0;
08:40:18.688: ENQ 0 Macro=557742;389867;6.265300;+31.833485;+0.190185;195.569213;+80.936029;T;T;N;W;6.455485;0;0;274.573057;5;00090B10;-1;0;13;0;
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Frank,
How do you slew to the first star after a cold start?
Do you manually slew to it or do you select an object from the hand controller and issue a goto command?
If you manually slew and then synchronise it will not do anything as it needs to know what it is you are pointing at.
If you command a goto to an object in the Eastern sky and then command a goto to an object in the Western sky - both well away from the meridian - the mount should perform a flip to do this.
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My tests are done inside. I hope this is what you mean. Using only the HC from a cold star at CWD, I slewed to a bright star and synced. Then I took the attached.
After this, I connected on the PC and checked the planetarium - and they agree with where the scope is pointing.
Then via the HC went to just over the meridian ( tried various spots ) and tried to meridian flip at them - all failed.
<GeminiStateSync.jpg><TelePointModSync.jpg>
--
Paul
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Interesting results.
Once the troubleshooter started recording, I went to a bright star via the HC and synched.? During this time, error messages were flashing rather quickly with time out, com errors etc. After syncing I slewed just passed the meridian and tried to flip - which it did not.? The error messages never stopped. I then stopped everything. I did not get these messages before.? File is attached.
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Re: RA lag both motors stopped
In the first instance I suspect that you may have had an unusually cold period causing over-tight worm to ring mesh which caused stalls.
However a faulty encoder could certainly cause similar problems,
The only way to determine this is to have both the Gemini and both motors on the desk in front of you.
If you can arrange that, there are tests you can undertake:
1) after startup is the RA motor turning slowly and does it resist gentle attempts to turn it by hand against that motion or trying to make it move faster? If yes, the RA motor is good.
2) Does the DEC motor resist attempts to move it as above.
3) To double check the DEC motor you can swap the motors.
If the above isn't what you encounter then tell us what does happen?
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of erwan quigna Sent: 21 February 2023 21:21 To: [email protected]Subject: [Gemini-II_io] RA lag both motors stopped Hi, Since a week I have a big problem on the g11 gemini2 of mu observatory. This is the third time I found the mount complexity stopped. Seems both motors stopped working during the night. After that almost impossible to move any axes, even after power cycle. I have the message RA/dec lag message. I passed the whole Sunday in the observatory trying to find find the failing component Swapping cable with old ones : work better. (Move a little between fails) Swapping motor no change Removing motor no change Unplug ra motor : dec works normally Unplug dec motor no change At the end I was able to retrieve a fully functional mount after swapping the optical encoder of the ra motor with the one of an old legacy svm motor ¡ but only for 2 days. This night complete failure again. Even worst. No move at all. Try ten of power cycle. Even reformat of scared I had to phone someone to move the telescope to be able to close the observatory. I believe the problem is on the gemini computer itself. Given the symptom do you believe a repair is possible ? Does it seems like a known failure `? Thanks Erwan
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 04:58 PM, Brian Valente wrote:
https://gemini-2.com/ASCOM.html
I'm currently using 1.0.84. I will download and install 1.1.17 beta.
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Hi Frank ? Please make sure you are using the latest beta of Gemini Telescope.net https://gemini-2.com/ASCOM.html ? (this is for the trouble shooter feature below) ? ? Please do only the things I mentioned, do not use the planetarium program, don¡¯t sync before, do not do anything other than the steps I outlined. Use only the Gemini Telescope.net for the meridian flip. The goal is to reduce the # of variables here, so sorry to be a stickler about this. ? If you can take a picture of your scope/mount prior to attempting meridian flip, please post ? Flip using Gemini Telescope.net only ? What happens? What messages are on the hand controller/Gemini Telescope.net? ? If that doesn¡¯t work please use the troubleshooting report feature and post both of those here ? 
? ? ? Thanks ? Brian ? Brian Valente Losmandy Astronomical ? Losmandy.com Tutorials and vids at ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Frank Wielgus
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2023 4:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Gemini-II_io] Meridian Flip - Stopped Working ? My tests are done inside. I hope this is what you mean. Using only the HC from a cold star at CWD, I slewed to a bright star and synced. Then I took the attached.
After this, I connected on the PC and checked the planetarium - and they agree with where the scope is pointing.
Then via the HC went to just over the meridian ( tried various spots ) and tried to meridian flip at them - all failed.
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
My tests are done inside. I hope this is what you mean. Using only the HC from a cold star at CWD, I slewed to a bright star and synced. Then I took the attached.
After this, I connected on the PC and checked the planetarium - and they agree with where the scope is pointing.
Then via the HC went to just over the meridian ( tried various spots ) and tried to meridian flip at them - all failed.
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Sorry I should have been more clear
The gemini settings are shown in the web page/ hand controller
I'm talking about the computer's own timezone settings, which your application uses (example of Windows 11 below).
I think more important are the meridian flip settings of your application i mentioned last time. It's not just the mount settings that determine success, it's the coordination between the app and the mount
On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 02:34 PM, Brian Valente wrote:
computer<->Gemini
Thanks Brian but not sure what you mean by computer<->Gemini.? So I took some screen shots from the web interface and Ascom Profiler.? If these are inadequate let me know.
-- Brian?
Brian Valente astro portfolio? portfolio astrobin?
--
Brian
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Can you confirm that you have done at least one sync after cold start before trying a flip using the handset? (Confirm this by looking on the Gemini web page that has the model parameters - if you do a proper sync and don't fudge it, the RA and HA index values should be non-zero (assuming you don't have absolutely perfect alignment!!). At the very least, the number of model points will be >0.
On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 02:34 PM, Brian Valente wrote:
computer<->Gemini
Thanks Brian but not sure what you mean by computer<->Gemini.? So I took some screen shots from the web interface and Ascom Profiler.? If these are inadequate let me know.
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 02:34 PM, Brian Valente wrote:
computer<->Gemini
Thanks Brian but not sure what you mean by computer<->Gemini.? So I took some screen shots from the web interface and Ascom Profiler.? If these are inadequate let me know.
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Frank these are just the mount settings, which need to be coordinated with the software meridian flip settings. Can you post those ? computer<->Gemini settings for date/time/timezone need to be the same as well. I¡¯ve seen incorrect timezone cause issues b/c it was an hour off between the two ? ? ? ? ? Thanks ? Brian ? Brian Valente Losmandy Astronomical ? Losmandy.com Tutorials and vids at ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Frank Wielgus
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2023 1:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Gemini-II_io] Meridian Flip - Stopped Working ? Paul - I agree with you but I am at a loss.? I am hoping the smarter brains with this group can help me.
Attached is a screen shot of the relevant info.? Maybe someone can see an issue. Time and location seem correct.? The limits are what had worked initially ( I cannot go past 94 ). I previously had not used the HC meridian flip function to know if it ever worked - as an imager I rely on the capture software to manage.
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Re: RA lag both motors stopped
Yes I have the old one
I am i france and very proficient in electronics.
Good point I will try a rework of all soldering
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Le 21 f¨¦vr. 2023 ¨¤ 22:36, rkaufmann87@... a ¨¦crit :
Is your Gemini 2 one of the old ¡°long boys¡± or the current, square Gemini 2. The older ¡°long boys¡± occasionally suffer from a broken solder joint that can cause an RA failure message. It¡¯s a simple fix but does require some soldering. Try Brian¡¯s suggestions first and if still no joy contact Tonya at Losmandy (better to call in the afternoon) and she can walk through some additional steps. I had a similar issue a few months ago and ended up sending my Gemini 2 box in for repair as I¡¯m not comfortable soldering electronics. Total cost including shipping was about $100.
Best,
Roger K.
On Feb 21, 2023, at 1:21 PM, erwan quigna <equigna@...> wrote:
Hi,
Since a week I have a big problem on the g11 gemini2 of mu observatory.
This is the third time I found the mount complexity stopped.
Seems both motors stopped working during the night.
After that almost impossible to move any axes, even after power cycle.
I have the message RA/dec lag message.
I passed the whole Sunday in the observatory trying to find find the failing component
Swapping cable with old ones : work better. (Move a little between fails)
Swapping motor no change
Removing motor no change
Unplug ra motor : dec works normally
Unplug dec motor no change
At the end I was able to retrieve a fully functional mount after swapping the optical encoder of the ra motor with the one of an old legacy svm motor
¡ but only for 2 days.
This night complete failure again.
Even worst. No move at all. Try ten of power cycle. Even reformat of scared
I had to phone someone to move the telescope to be able to close the observatory.
I believe the problem is on the gemini computer itself.
Given the symptom do you believe a repair is possible ?
Does it seems like a known failure `?
Thanks
Erwan
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Re: RA lag both motors stopped
The problem even exist with motors removed from the mount
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Re: RA lag both motors stopped
Is your Gemini 2 one of the old ¡°long boys¡± or the current, square Gemini 2. The older ¡°long boys¡± occasionally suffer from a broken solder joint that can cause an RA failure message. It¡¯s a simple fix but does require some soldering. Try Brian¡¯s suggestions first and if still no joy contact Tonya at Losmandy (better to call in the afternoon) and she can walk through some additional steps. I had a similar issue a few months ago and ended up sending my Gemini 2 box in for repair as I¡¯m not comfortable soldering electronics. Total cost including shipping was about $100.
Best,
Roger K.
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On Feb 21, 2023, at 1:21 PM, erwan quigna <equigna@...> wrote:
Hi,
Since a week I have a big problem on the g11 gemini2 of mu observatory.
This is the third time I found the mount complexity stopped.
Seems both motors stopped working during the night.
After that almost impossible to move any axes, even after power cycle.
I have the message RA/dec lag message.
I passed the whole Sunday in the observatory trying to find find the failing component
Swapping cable with old ones : work better. (Move a little between fails)
Swapping motor no change
Removing motor no change
Unplug ra motor : dec works normally
Unplug dec motor no change
At the end I was able to retrieve a fully functional mount after swapping the optical encoder of the ra motor with the one of an old legacy svm motor
¡ but only for 2 days.
This night complete failure again.
Even worst. No move at all. Try ten of power cycle. Even reformat of scared
I had to phone someone to move the telescope to be able to close the observatory.
I believe the problem is on the gemini computer itself.
Given the symptom do you believe a repair is possible ?
Does it seems like a known failure `?
Thanks
Erwan
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Re: RA lag both motors stopped
Hi Erwan
Were there motor stall messages when this happened? have you tried adjusting the worm mesh??
things that most often cause/ lag/stall 1. insufficient power 2. worm mesh too tight 3. telescope not properly balanced
On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 1:21 PM erwan quigna < equigna@...> wrote: Hi,
Since a week I have a big problem on the g11 gemini2 of mu observatory.
This is the third time I found the mount complexity stopped.
Seems both motors stopped working during the night.
After that almost impossible to move any axes, even after power cycle.
I have the message RA/dec lag message.
I passed the whole Sunday in the observatory trying to find find the failing component
Swapping cable with old ones : work better. (Move a little between fails)
Swapping motor no change
Removing motor no change
Unplug ra motor : dec works normally
Unplug dec motor no change
At the end I was able to retrieve a fully functional mount after swapping the optical encoder of the ra motor with the one of an old legacy svm motor
¡ but only for 2 days.
This night complete failure again.
Even worst. No move at all. Try ten of power cycle. Even reformat of scared
I had to phone someone to move the telescope to be able to close the observatory.
I believe the problem is on the gemini computer itself.
Given the symptom do you believe a repair is possible ?
Does it seems like a known failure `?
Thanks
Erwan
-- Brian?
Brian Valente astro portfolio? portfolio astrobin?
--
Brian
|
Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Paul - I agree with you but I am at a loss.? I am hoping the smarter brains with this group can help me.
Attached is a screen shot of the relevant info.? Maybe someone can see an issue. Time and location seem correct.? The limits are what had worked initially ( I cannot go past 94 ). I previously had not used the HC meridian flip function to know if it ever worked - as an imager I rely on the capture software to manage.
|
RA lag both motors stopped
Hi,
Since a week I have a big problem on the g11 gemini2 of mu observatory.
This is the third time I found the mount complexity stopped.
Seems both motors stopped working during the night.
After that almost impossible to move any axes, even after power cycle.
I have the message RA/dec lag message.
I passed the whole Sunday in the observatory trying to find find the failing component
Swapping cable with old ones : work better. (Move a little between fails)
Swapping motor no change
Removing motor no change
Unplug ra motor : dec works normally
Unplug dec motor no change
At the end I was able to retrieve a fully functional mount after swapping the optical encoder of the ra motor with the one of an old legacy svm motor
¡ but only for 2 days.
This night complete failure again.
Even worst. No move at all. Try ten of power cycle. Even reformat of scared
I had to phone someone to move the telescope to be able to close the observatory.
I believe the problem is on the gemini computer itself.
Given the symptom do you believe a repair is possible ?
Does it seems like a known failure `?
Thanks
Erwan
|
Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
I"ve been following this, and I agree something fundamental just seems amiss. I really don't think there's anything about the Gemini or the firmware that's causing this, particularly since you have it working under some circumstances.?
Paul suggested you could try a few additional steps, but beyond an HGM reset and re-entering your data, I don't know if those will make any actual difference. The meridian flip is really about correct settings, coordinating those settings, and allowing enough time padding that even if the coordination misses by a handful of minutes, it will still work. Many hundreds/thousands of people use Gemini 2 with automated flips, or we'd hear a lot more about this issue. This is the first time i've heard CDC being used for imaging and meridian flip tracking (nice! i wasn't aware it did this, but i'm not a cdc user), so you may be breaking some ground on that software with a gemini, only from what I've seen in the past 5 years.?
I also think sorting out the flip without getting third party software involved would help isolate what is the cause.?
Here's a fairly simple test that could help using only the telescope and Gemini Telescope.net (computer attached) - cold start from CWD
- Use your hand controller to set your limits to something very generous, say 120 eastern, 120 western, with a western goto limit of 19. This is only for this test
- connect Gemini Telescope.net to your gemini, but make sure it's not updating any settings on connect
- using the hand controller, manually slew the mount until it is pier side west, but counterweight up. I'm talking a good 5-10 degrees past meridian and obviously counterweight up. You will probably need/want to adjust dec so your telescope/camera does not hit the pier. The goal here is to have a position that hasn't yet hit the limit but that you can clearly reach on opposite side of pier when you do a flip
- then from Gemini Telescope.net choose Perform Meridian Flip. If everything above is set up correctly, that should flip the mount to opposite side of pier. if that's the case, then you know things are working correctly and it's a matter of figuring out which settings are causing issues
 (just remember to reset your limits and WGT limit back to what you had them at).?
Meridian flips in general are not well defined in the spec nor handled consistently between applications, mounts, etc.?
We are adding a Flip Corridor feature in L6 to make things easier to configure and more consistent across a broader range of third party apps. Hopefully that will help reduce issues like this in the future
On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 12:40 PM Paul Homer < phomer60@...> wrote: Frank,
Back to my original post, you need to resolve the issue of not being able to perform a meridian flip with the hand controller before worrying about the software.
It must be either a time or location setting issue or the limits.
Paul,
Meridian flip does not work from the HC.
--
Paul
-- Brian?
Brian Valente astro portfolio? portfolio astrobin?
--
Brian
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
Frank,
Back to my original post, you need to resolve the issue of not being able to perform a meridian flip with the hand controller before worrying about the software.
It must be either a time or location setting issue or the limits.
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Paul,
Meridian flip does not work from the HC.
--
Paul
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Re: Meridian Flip - Stopped Working
On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 01:13 PM, Frank Wielgus wrote:
Paul,
Meridian flip does not work from the HC.
That is indeed strange! :Mf# command certainly works for others, and I have no idea why it doesn't for you. Maybe try to reflash the firmware, but this has an even smaller chance of working than anything you've tried so far... One more thought. Try resetting the safety limits to their defaults and see if a flip occurs then, somewhere between the meridian and the safety limit. You can use ASCOM driver Func->Perform Meridian Flip to do this, as this uses the :Mf# command also. First, position the mount to be just past the meridian (Hour Angle of just a bit more than 0). Obviously, don't try it if this risks a collision with the pier. Either put a smaller load on it, or you could even test with the motors removed from the mount. You'll hear and see the slew if the meridian flip is successfully executed.?
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Paul Kanevsky
David C. Partridge
