Re: If You Don't Have A Center, You Don't Have Stability
? On Jul 30, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Emily Mae via groups.io <emily.mae50@...> wrote:
?On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 09:22 AM, Sal Sunshine wrote:
We are truly broken as a democracy. ?Law no longer prevails…maybe it never really did, but at least we expected it to
Our country was set up as a flawed democracy.? And the rich and powerful and political get away with all kinds of stuff and always have.? If we elect an authoritarian cult leader, we can kiss it goodbye.? And the would-be authoritarians are chomping at the bit...there's more than just the Grand Wizard of Whine out there.? Better a flawed democracy than no democracy.??
But has it ever really been even that? ?Supposedly we’ve only not been at war for around 10 years, 4 of those during the Carter administration. ? And now we have millions of weapons of war out in the streets, with an unhinged minority willing to use ?them at the ?slightest provocation.
I knew when they let the Bundys off with basically a slap on the wrist it was a huge mistake, ?it would just embolden them.
Democracy at the point of a gun. Freedom.
“?War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is Strength”
|
By the way it was Steve I was responding to, sorry if it looks otherwise.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 30, 2022, at 8:51 PM, Sal Sunshine <salsunshineiniowa@...> wrote:
? On Jul 30, 2022, at 7:27 PM, Emily Mae via groups.io <emily.mae50@...> wrote:
The democrats need to move away from this unrelenting focus on gender issues, on race issues, on peripheral issues, and refocus on what has always been their strength, which is working class people.? And also recognize, that if you don't have boundries, you don't have a country.
?
Until that happens, they are going to lose elections.
Is that what the Magic 8-ball has told you? What makes you think working-class people do not also benefit from the focus on gender, race and other, as you put it, “peripheral” issues? ?What makes you think there isn’t a large overlap in the groups in other words? (Hint: they aren’t peripheral to the millions affected by them.)
Or do you only mean working-class white, straight, married people??
What funny about this is that "working class people" is exactly what the Progressives are focused on.? I have no idea what news you're watching, but whatever it is, they want you to believe it's these other things.
|
On Jul 30, 2022, at 7:27 PM, Emily Mae via groups.io <emily.mae50@...> wrote:
The democrats need to move away from this unrelenting focus on gender issues, on race issues, on peripheral issues, and refocus on what has always been their strength, which is working class people.? And also recognize, that if you don't have boundries, you don't have a country.
?
Until that happens, they are going to lose elections.
Is that what the Magic 8-ball has told you? What makes you think working-class people do not also benefit from the focus on gender, race and other, as you put it, “peripheral” issues? ?What makes you think there isn’t a large overlap in the groups in other words? (Hint: they aren’t peripheral to the millions affected by them.)
Or do you only mean working-class white, straight, married people??
What funny about this is that "working class people" is exactly what the Progressives are focused on.? I have no idea what news you're watching, but whatever it is, they want you to believe it's these other things.
|
On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 11:51 AM, Steve Sundur wrote:
BLM is a loose group of individuals having nothing to do with the government, but, and I hope I don’t need to say this altho I will… violence is unacceptable anytime, no matter who perpetrates it. ?And if by the “Squad” you are referring to Rep Ocasio-Cortez and a couple of others, see above. ?I honestly don’t get it, when have any of them ever said or indicated people who disagree with them are racist? ?What have I missed? If you mean that’s some kind of subtext in their individual communications, then you’ll have to give some examples. ?(PS, there is no Squad, only 4-5 individuals, that’s a derogatory term made up by those ?who don’t like them in order to discredit them.)
?
You need not take my word for it.? When you listen to political pundits, many of who lean left, but still value objectivity, there is portion of the democratic party who push an agenda that most Americans are racist.? We are not racist, we are tolerant, but we may adhere to a different set of values, which are more conservative than those of the extreme end of the party. That does not mean we are racist.
I disagree with this....what is happening is that many are finally understanding what "structural racism" is.? And all of us white folk have benefited from advantages that we took for granted, advantages based on the fact that we are white.? This is the truth.? There was an awakening in this country after George Floyd....millions of white people couldn't imagine this tragedy happening to them, because it wouldn't have.? It's opened up discussions.? I'm pretty sure if Kyle Rittenhouse were black, he'd be in prison right now.? Just sayin'.??
?
?
The democrats need to move away from this unrelenting focus on gender issues, on race issues, on peripheral issues, and refocus on what has always been their strength, which is working class people.? And also recognize, that if you don't have boundries, you don't have a country.
?
Until that happens, they are going to lose elections.
What funny about this is that "working class people" is exactly what the Progressives are focused on.? I have no idea what news you're watching, but whatever it is, they want you to believe it's these other things.??
? --
Em
|
Re: If You Don't Have A Center, You Don't Have Stability
On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 09:22 AM, Sal Sunshine wrote:
We are truly broken as a democracy. ?Law no longer prevails…maybe it never really did, but at least we expected it to
Our country was set up as a flawed democracy.? And the rich and powerful and political get away with all kinds of stuff and always have.? If we elect an authoritarian cult leader, we can kiss it goodbye.? And the would-be authoritarians are chomping at the bit...there's more than just the Grand Wizard of Whine out there.? Better a flawed democracy than no democracy.?? ? --
Em
|
Re: If You Don't Have A Center, You Don't Have Stability
On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 11:24 AM, Steve Sundur wrote:
Yes, this, and the lack of a foundation based on a general consensus of fact.? See Fact #3 below.? ?
It's hard to argue about the fact of natural disasters on the rise, however, so perhaps we can agree on just that.? Yes, extreme weather is here.? Period.??
Other facts?
1) Republicans have voted against protecting the right to abortion, the right to use birth control, the right to cross state lines to obtain reproductive health care, and gay marriage.
?
I was hoping someone might bring up abortion.? I have a couple thoughts about it.? They are just thoughts, and I'm not trying to convince anyone about it one way or the other.
?
But, I find it weird that Kamala Harris appears so outraged that ANYONE could object to abortion.? Abortion is gruesome.? A life, or potential life is being terminated.
The body aborts all the time.? It's called miscarriage.? You have the right to think it's gruesome and the right to object, but you don't have the right to force me to carry an unwanted pregnancy (I'm speaking metaphorically).? The crux of the argument is about choice...that's what get's lost in trying to converse with the morality police today.? Women should have agency over their own bodies and their own choices.? It's about women's rights.? Period.? (As an aside, the way I see it, a "potential life" is a completely meaningless term.)? ? ??
Is this not the case?? Is it surprising that a segment of the population would find this objectionable on religious, or other grounds? In the last fifty years there have been many numerous developments to prevent pregnancy.? That said, I do not support the ban on abortions.? The other observation I've made, is that abortion doctors, and abortion support staff, when they are interviewed, or when there are stories about them, seem rather seedy.? Abortion doctors in particular seem motivated by money.? Not hint of altruism that I've observed. Perhaps the best statement I've heard about abortion, is to "keep it safe and rare".
?
If Supreme Court goes after contraception and same sex marriage,?I think it will hit a brick wall.??
2) Oil giants ExxonMobil and Chevron reported historic profits from the last three months. Exxon made $1 a7.9 billion (not a typo) last quarter, up 273% from the same time last year, while Chevron made $11.6 billion. Exxon’s rate of income was $2,245.62 every second of every day for the past 92 days; Chevron made $1,462.11 per second. Together, BP, Chevron, ExxonMobil, Shell, and TotalEnergies are expected to announce $60 billion in profits for the past three months. They plan to spend much of the profit not on reinvesting in their businesses, but on stock buybacks, which drives up the price of the stock.?
These record profits came at the same time that American consumers were staggering under high gas prices, which made up almost half of the increase in inflation of the past few months.???
Okay, another topic on my mind.? You realize of course, that for the past 5-10 years, oil profits have been depressed, at least historically speaking. The price of oil has much to do with the war in Ukraine.? Do you not realize the long-term?implication on energy this war is having? There is a huge incentive to move towards clean energy.? And if, somehow this war ends up with a diminished Russia, do you not realize the peace dividend this is going to create!? Russia has NOTHING going for it.? They are a failed state with NOTHING to lose, except that they are a global menace. They have fossil fuels and nuclear weapons, both of which they use to blackmail the rest of the world. There has been NO investment in their economy other than energy and weapons.? This war, assuming there is no nuclear component to it, is already shifting the balance of power.?
China will continue to be an increasing military threat, of course.? BUT, they have a lot to lose.? They are an economic superpower, and a war of any sort would be disastrous?for them. And, the rest of the world, of course.
3) The Department of Justice has indicted Aleksandr Viktorovich Ionov of Moscow, who, along with at least three other Russian officials, it says “engaged in a years-long foreign malign influence campaign targeting the United States.” Allegedly, Ionov recruited political groups in the U.S. and, with the supervision of the Russian government, illegally used their members to “sow division and spread misinformation inside the United States.” The targeted groups were located in Florida, Georgia, and California, and Ionov allegedly worked closely with them, directing and controlling their leaders, who appear to have been aware of his connection to the Russian government, since at least December 2014.
?
FBI special agent in charge David Walker today told reporters that Ionov’s actions were “some of the most egregious and blatant violations that we’ve seen by the Russian government in order to destabilize and undermine trust in American democracy.... The Russian intelligence threat is continuing and unrelenting.”
?
And this why if Russia can be defeated in Ukraine, the global community will be FAR BETTER OFF.??
?
?
? --
Em
|
Re: If You Don't Have A Center, You Don't Have Stability
On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 10:07:35 AM CDT, Emily Mae via groups.io <emily.mae50@...> wrote:
Yes, this, and the lack of a foundation based on a general consensus of fact.? See Fact #3 below.? ?
It's hard to argue about the fact of natural disasters on the rise, however, so perhaps we can agree on just that.? Yes, extreme weather is here.? Period.??
Other facts?
1) Republicans have voted against protecting the right to abortion, the right to use birth control, the right to cross state lines to obtain reproductive health care, and gay marriage.
I was hoping someone might bring up abortion.? I have a couple thoughts about it.? They are just thoughts, and I'm not trying to convince anyone about it one way or the other.
But, I find it weird that Kamala Harris appears so outraged that ANYONE could object to abortion.? Abortion is gruesome.? A life, or potential life is being terminated. Is this not the case?? Is it surprising that a segment of the population would find this objectionable on religious, or other grounds? In the last fifty years there have been many numerous developments to prevent pregnancy.? That said, I do not support the ban on abortions.? The other observation I've made, is that abortion doctors, and abortion support staff, when they are interviewed, or when there are stories about them, seem rather seedy.? Abortion doctors in particular seem motivated by money.? Not hint of altruism that I've observed. Perhaps the best statement I've heard about abortion, is to "keep it safe and rare".
If Supreme Court goes after contraception and same sex marriage,?I think it will hit a brick wall.
2) Oil giants ExxonMobil and Chevron reported historic profits from the last three months. Exxon made $1 a7.9 billion (not a typo) last quarter, up 273% from the same time last year, while Chevron made $11.6 billion. Exxon’s rate of income was $2,245.62 every second of every day for the past 92 days; Chevron made $1,462.11 per second. Together, BP, Chevron, ExxonMobil, Shell, and TotalEnergies are expected to announce $60 billion in profits for the past three months. They plan to spend much of the profit not on reinvesting in their businesses, but on stock buybacks, which drives up the price of the stock.?
These record profits came at the same time that American consumers were staggering under high gas prices, which made up almost half of the increase in inflation of the past few months.??? Okay, another topic on my mind.? You realize of course, that for the past 5-10 years, oil profits have been depressed, at least historically speaking. The price of oil has much to do with the war in Ukraine.? Do you not realize the long-term?implication on energy this war is having? There is a huge incentive to move towards clean energy.? And if, somehow this war ends up with a diminished Russia, do you not realize the peace dividend this is going to create!? Russia has NOTHING going for it.? They are a failed state with NOTHING to lose, except that they are a global menace. They have fossil fuels and nuclear weapons, both of which they use to blackmail the rest of the world. There has been NO investment in their economy other than energy and weapons.? This war, assuming there is no nuclear component to it, is already shifting the balance of power.? China will continue to be an increasing military threat, of course.? BUT, they have a lot to lose.? They are an economic superpower, and a war of any sort would be disastrous?for them. And, the rest of the world, of course.
3) The Department of Justice has indicted Aleksandr Viktorovich Ionov of Moscow, who, along with at least three other Russian officials, it says “engaged in a years-long foreign malign influence campaign targeting the United States.” Allegedly, Ionov recruited political groups in the U.S. and, with the supervision of the Russian government, illegally used their members to “sow division and spread misinformation inside the United States.” The targeted groups were located in Florida, Georgia, and California, and Ionov allegedly worked closely with them, directing and controlling their leaders, who appear to have been aware of his connection to the Russian government, since at least December 2014.
FBI special agent in charge David Walker today told reporters that Ionov’s actions were “some of the most egregious and blatant violations that we’ve seen by the Russian government in order to destabilize and undermine trust in American democracy.... The Russian intelligence threat is continuing and unrelenting.”
And this why if Russia can be defeated in Ukraine, the global community will be FAR BETTER OFF.
?--
Em
|
Re: If You Don't Have A Center, You Don't Have Stability
3) The Department of Justice has indicted Aleksandr Viktorovich Ionov of Moscow, who, along with at least three other Russian officials, it says “engaged in a years-long foreign malign influence campaign targeting the United States.” Allegedly, Ionov recruited political groups in the U.S. and, with the supervision of the Russian government, illegally used their members to “sow division and spread misinformation inside the United States.” The targeted groups were located in Florida, Georgia, and California, and Ionov allegedly worked closely with them, directing and controlling their leaders, who appear to have been aware of his connection to the Russian government, since at least December 2014.
So this foreign, malign influence has finally produced some results DOJ-wise, even though it’s only been going on since… 2014?? ?At this rate we can expect Trump, Giuliani et al ?to be indicted sometime around 2050. ?Maybe.
We are truly broken as a democracy. ?Law no longer prevails…maybe it never really did, but at least we expected it to… only who you know and how far you can go before you get caught. ?Sad.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 11:59 AM, Steve Sundur wrote:
That center does not exist anymore, and as a result there is no stability in our political system.
Yes, this, and the lack of a foundation based on a general consensus of fact.? See Fact #3 below.? ? It's hard to argue about the fact of natural disasters on the rise, however, so perhaps we can agree on just that.? Yes, extreme weather is here.? Period.?? Other facts? 1) Republicans have voted against protecting the right to abortion, the right to use birth control, the right to cross state lines to obtain reproductive health care, and gay marriage.
2) Oil giants ExxonMobil and Chevron reported historic profits from the last three months. Exxon made $17.9 billion (not a typo) last quarter, up 273% from the same time last year, while Chevron made $11.6 billion. Exxon’s rate of income was $2,245.62 every second of every day for the past 92 days; Chevron made $1,462.11 per second. Together, BP, Chevron, ExxonMobil, Shell, and TotalEnergies are expected to announce $60 billion in profits for the past three months. They plan to spend much of the profit not on reinvesting in their businesses, but on stock buybacks, which drives up the price of the stock.? These record profits came at the same time that American consumers were staggering under high gas prices, which made up almost half of the increase in inflation of the past few months.???
3) The Department of Justice has indicted Aleksandr Viktorovich Ionov of Moscow, who, along with at least three other Russian officials, it says “engaged in a years-long foreign malign influence campaign targeting the United States.” Allegedly, Ionov recruited political groups in the U.S. and, with the supervision of the Russian government, illegally used their members to “sow division and spread misinformation inside the United States.” The targeted groups were located in Florida, Georgia, and California, and Ionov allegedly worked closely with them, directing and controlling their leaders, who appear to have been aware of his connection to the Russian government, since at least December 2014.
FBI special agent in charge David Walker today told reporters that Ionov’s actions were “some of the most egregious and blatant violations that we’ve seen by the Russian government in order to destabilize and undermine trust in American democracy.... The Russian intelligence threat is continuing and unrelenting.”
? --
Em
|
Re: If You Don't Have A Center, You Don't Have Stability
On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 11:59 AM, Steve Sundur wrote:
That center does not exist anymore, and as a result there is no stability in our political system.
Yes, this, and the lack of a foundation based on a general consensus of fact.? See Fact #3 below.? ? It's hard to argue about the fact of natural disasters on the rise, however, so perhaps we can agree on just that.? Yes, extreme weather is here.? Period.?? Other facts? 1) Republicans have voted against protecting the right to abortion, the right to use birth control, the right to cross state lines to obtain reproductive health care, and gay marriage.
2) Oil giants ExxonMobil and Chevron reported historic profits from the last three months. Exxon made $17.9 billion (not a typo) last quarter, up 273% from the same time last year, while Chevron made $11.6 billion. Exxon’s rate of income was $2,245.62 every second of every day for the past 92 days; Chevron made $1,462.11 per second. Together, BP, Chevron, ExxonMobil, Shell, and TotalEnergies are expected to announce $60 billion in profits for the past three months. They plan to spend much of the profit not on reinvesting in their businesses, but on stock buybacks, which drives up the price of the stock.?
These record profits came at the same time that American consumers were staggering under high gas prices, which made up almost half of the increase in inflation of the past few months.???
3) The Department of Justice has indicted Aleksandr Viktorovich Ionov of Moscow, who, along with at least three other Russian officials, it says “engaged in a years-long foreign malign influence campaign targeting the United States.” Allegedly, Ionov recruited political groups in the U.S. and, with the supervision of the Russian government, illegally used their members to “sow division and spread misinformation inside the United States.” The targeted groups were located in Florida, Georgia, and California, and Ionov allegedly worked closely with them, directing and controlling their leaders, who appear to have been aware of his connection to the Russian government, since at least December 2014.
FBI special agent in charge David Walker today told reporters that Ionov’s actions were “some of the most egregious and blatant violations that we’ve seen by the Russian government in order to destabilize and undermine trust in American democracy.... The Russian intelligence threat is continuing and unrelenting.”
? --
Em
|
Hi Ravi,?
Good articles.? I'm glad someone is paying attention to the positive things accomplished!? I had no idea that the White House granted its first interview after Ketanji Brown Jackson was nominated to Heather Cox Richardson!? I love her - straight up facts with history thrown in.? Lovely.??
The second article makes a good point that Progressives maintain high expectations for their candidates as compared to....The field will be full for 2024, even though I find it interesting that Clinton and Warren have already professed support for a second term for Biden.? If his health holds, I'm guessing he'll run.? Honestly, I'm about who can win.? I'm a Progressive at heart, but have lost any idealism when it comes to the political stage.? Obama took that with him as he walked out the door, supporting the peaceful transition of power to a would-be authoritarian maniac.? At this point in our history and until the Republican Party rights itself or implodes and is replaced by rational actors, there's still too much at stake, i.e. the bottom line.? FWIW.
Good to hear from you.? I am finally feeling better and my brain appears to have recovered to the degree it will.? Work is hard, but I'm grateful to have a good job and my colleagues and supervisor are great, which is a real gift.? Wish it wasn't full-time and that I had more flexibility in my schedule. Four days a week would be perfect!? And, I'm positive I could get done as much in 4, as 5 days..in fact, almost surely more.??
It's hot here this week...two words on the lips of many..."heat pump."? Looks like a climate bill, a start, has a whisper of a hope of passing in the Senate.? I expect McConnell will continue to vote against his people, who are hopefully waking up, given the massive flooding and tragedy of lost lives going on in Kentucky.? Blame Andy Beshear--the guy that advocated for the state to accept Medicaid expansion!
DeTrumpist!? That's good.??
--
Em
|
? I follow George too, on Twitter. ?Some of his posts are very funny and he usually hits the mark.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 25, 2022, at 1:51 PM, Steve Sundur via groups.io <steve.sundur@...> wrote:
?
BLM is a loose group of individuals having nothing to do with the government, but, and I hope I don’t need to say this altho I will… violence is unacceptable anytime, no matter who perpetrates it. ?And if by the “Squad” you are referring to Rep Ocasio-Cortez and a couple of others, see above. ?I honestly don’t get it, when have any of them ever said or indicated people who disagree with them are racist? ?What have I missed? If you mean that’s some kind of subtext in their individual communications, then you’ll have to give some examples. ?(PS, there is no Squad, only 4-5 individuals, that’s a derogatory term made up by those ?who don’t like them in order to discredit them.)
You need not take my word for it.? When you listen to political pundits, many of who lean left, but still value objectivity, there is portion of the democratic party who push an agenda that most Americans are racist.? We are not racist, we are tolerant, but we may adhere to a different set of values, which are more conservative than those of the extreme end of the party. That does not mean we are racist.
The democrats need to move away from this unrelenting focus on gender issues, on race issues, on peripheral issues, and refocus on what has always been their strength, which is working class people.? And also recognize, that if you don't have boundries, you don't have a country.
Until that happens, they are going to lose elections. You’ll have to give ?some examples Steve, because honestly you’ve lost me here. ?I’ve never heard of “do not prosecute” agendas. ?Yes, I understand Democrats are tagged with everything negative since the Garfield assasination, mainly because Fox “News” takes royal advantage of its viewers. ??But if most of these spurious accusations have any basis in fact I’m not aware of it, they usually just make the accusation then wait to see what sticks. ?Works great as long as you don’t have to come up with any proof. ?It’s pretty sick.??
You realize of course that the prosecutng attorney for San Francisco was recalled, right?? He was recalled because of general, "do not prosecute" agenda.? I don't know what else to say.? You asked for a specific example.
Covid is in a different category, that I, at least would address seperately.
Seriously? ?Anyone who thinks the GOP negotiates in good faith anymore really needs to take his or her head out of the sand. ?None of those bills ever had a prayer of passing in the Senate as it now stands.
Also, if you want to assign blame in any area, there is plenty to go around. ?And what I have observed here, is that there is a willingness to dispense with due process or rule of law when it stands in the way of a desired result.
Glad you mentioned dispensing with due process, you might want to check out the insurrection on January 6 of last year, entirely driven by Trump and his minions, which actually came frighteningly close to ending democracy as we know it here. ?The hearings have been fascinating glimpses into the ?behind-the-scenes planning and execution. ?Most of the witnesses have been Republicans, by the way.
If you expect me to defend Trump, or January 6th, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.? I hate Trump as much as George Conway.? If you want to know my views on Trump, check with George.
|
If You Don't Have A Center, You Don't Have Stability
It used to be that there was not extreme polarizaton between the two parties.? There was an underlying concensus of where we wanted to be, and how to move forward.? That center does not exist anymore, and as a result there is no stability in our political system. Maybe it is a result of the internet.? Maybe we are just entering a different era.? But until we can arrive at a center point of gravity, so to speak, things we continue as they are now, and we will become a weak, vulnerable nation.
|
BLM is a loose group of individuals having nothing to do with the government, but, and I hope I don’t need to say this altho I will… violence is unacceptable anytime, no matter who perpetrates it. ?And if by the “Squad” you are referring to Rep Ocasio-Cortez and a couple of others, see above. ?I honestly don’t get it, when have any of them ever said or indicated people who disagree with them are racist? ?What have I missed? If you mean that’s some kind of subtext in their individual communications, then you’ll have to give some examples. ?(PS, there is no Squad, only 4-5 individuals, that’s a derogatory term made up by those ?who don’t like them in order to discredit them.)
You need not take my word for it.? When you listen to political pundits, many of who lean left, but still value objectivity, there is portion of the democratic party who push an agenda that most Americans are racist.? We are not racist, we are tolerant, but we may adhere to a different set of values, which are more conservative than those of the extreme end of the party. That does not mean we are racist.
The democrats need to move away from this unrelenting focus on gender issues, on race issues, on peripheral issues, and refocus on what has always been their strength, which is working class people.? And also recognize, that if you don't have boundries, you don't have a country.
Until that happens, they are going to lose elections. You’ll have to give ?some examples Steve, because honestly you’ve lost me here. ?I’ve never heard of “do not prosecute” agendas. ?Yes, I understand Democrats are tagged with everything negative since the Garfield assasination, mainly because Fox “News” takes royal advantage of its viewers. ??But if most of these spurious accusations have any basis in fact I’m not aware of it, they usually just make the accusation then wait to see what sticks. ?Works great as long as you don’t have to come up with any proof. ?It’s pretty sick.??
You realize of course that the prosecutng attorney for San Francisco was recalled, right?? He was recalled because of general, "do not prosecute" agenda.? I don't know what else to say.? You asked for a specific example.
Covid is in a different category, that I, at least would address seperately.
Seriously? ?Anyone who thinks the GOP negotiates in good faith anymore really needs to take his or her head out of the sand. ?None of those bills ever had a prayer of passing in the Senate as it now stands.
Also, if you want to assign blame in any area, there is plenty to go around. ?And what I have observed here, is that there is a willingness to dispense with due process or rule of law when it stands in the way of a desired result.
Glad you mentioned dispensing with due process, you might want to check out the insurrection on January 6 of last year, entirely driven by Trump and his minions, which actually came frighteningly close to ending democracy as we know it here. ?The hearings have been fascinating glimpses into the ?behind-the-scenes planning and execution. ?Most of the witnesses have been Republicans, by the way.
If you expect me to defend Trump, or January 6th, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.? I hate Trump as much as George Conway.? If you want to know my views on Trump, check with George.
|
?
?
?On Jul 24, 2022, at 11:03 PM, Steve Sundur via groups.io <steve.sundur@...> wrote: ?Oh my. ?I can't seem to cut and paste, so.
1) Hey, I guess you're right. ?I cannot come up with a quote of a democratic law maker saying "American's are racist". ?It just happens to be a main tenant of BLM, the Squad, and many grass roots democrats. ?If you don't see it, I suggest you change your glasses.
TENET. I find that almost as annoying as the “pregnant people” crap, lol. ?I assume you mean a belief, not someone who rents from you.BLM is a loose group of individuals having nothing to do with the government, but, and I hope I don’t need to say this altho I will… violence is unacceptable anytime, no matter who perpetrates it. ?And if by the “Squad” you are referring to Rep Ocasio-Cortez and a couple of others, see above. ?I honestly don’t get it, when have any of them ever said or indicated people who disagree with them are racist? ?What have I missed? If you mean that’s some kind of subtext in their individual communications, then you’ll have to give some examples. ?(PS, there is no Squad, only 4-5 individuals, that’s a derogatory term made up by those ?who don’t like them in order to discredit them.)2) Perception matters. ?Sound bites matter. Right wing commentators' matter when they get ahold of these cultural pop-up issues. ?Crime in democrat led cities also matter (a lot). ?Prosecuting attorneys with "do not prosecute" agendas (really) matter. These are just some of the issues democrats are tagged with.
You’ll have to give ?some examples Steve, because honestly you’ve lost me here. ?I’ve never heard of “do not prosecute” agendas. ?Yes, I understand Democrats are tagged with everything negative since the Garfield assasination, mainly because Fox “News” takes royal advantage of its viewers. ??But if most of these spurious accusations have any basis in fact I’m not aware of it, they usually just make the accusation then wait to see what sticks. ?Works great as long as you don’t have to come up with any proof. ?It’s pretty sick. ?Meanwhile, at least in large part because of Republican governors’ almost criminal negligence, millions more have died needlessly of covid-19 in their states unnecessarily. ?The opiod crisis is out of control in many of those states too. ?I’ll look up some numbers if you want.And as far as the numbers go in the Democratic- run states, who could possibly forget Jared Kushner’s almost gleeful demeanor as he supposedly looked forward to more people in Democratic run states dying as he felt it would help the GOP politically. ?Because at that time, since most of the point-of entry states are Democratic, their numbers were higher. Didn’t take long for the GOP-run states to catch up though, as we all know. But in the beginning, their political strategy was this:
Most troubling of all, perhaps, was a sentiment the expert said a member of Kushner's team expressed: that because the virus had hit blue states hardest, a national plan was unnecessary and would not make sense politically. "The political folks believed that because it was going to be relegated to Democratic states, that they could blame those governors, and that would be an effective political strategy," said the expert.
So for four years we were being run by what amounted to a criminal enterprise, where experts and their experience as well as life itself was devalued and diminished to the point where they were perfectly willing to commit murder-by-negligence if they thought they could score political points with it. ?
3) I guess you know, and maybe it's been discussed here, but the democrats used to hold large majorities in Washington, and that has diminished significantly over time. ?My personal theory is that most people tend to be conservative, and it starts with the pocketbook. ?I think the point I am trying to make is that over the last 20-30 years things have drifted to the right. ?Somehow the democrats continue to play catch up.
4) What happens is that you get a bill good for the environment, and the democrats start adding all sorts of amendments that have nothing to do with the environment, which ends up killing the bill.
Seriously? ?Anyone who thinks the GOP negotiates in good faith anymore really needs to take his or her head out of the sand. ?None of those bills ever had a prayer of passing in the Senate as it now stands.Also, if you want to assign blame in any area, there is plenty to go around. ?And what I have observed here, is that there is a willingness to dispense with due process or rule of law when it stands in the way of a desired result.
Glad you mentioned dispensing with due process, you might want to check out the insurrection on January 6 of last year, entirely driven by Trump and his minions, which actually came frighteningly close to ending democracy as we know it here. ?The hearings have been fascinating glimpses into the ?behind-the-scenes planning and execution. ?Most of the witnesses have been Republicans, by the way.
|
Oh my.? I can't seem to cut and paste, so.
1) Hey, I guess you're right.? I cannot come up with a quote of a democratic law maker saying "American's are racist".? It just happens to be a main tenant of BLM, the Squad, and many grass roots democrats.? If you don't see it, I suggest you change your glasses.
2) Perception matters.? Sound bites matter. Right wing commentators' matter when they get ahold of these cultural pop-up issues.? Crime in democrat led cities also matter (a lot).? Prosecuting attorneys with "do not prosecute" agendas (really) matter. These are just some of the issues democrats are tagged with.
3) I guess you know, and maybe it's been discussed here, but the democrats used to hold large majorities in Washington, and that has diminished significantly over time.? My personal theory is that most people tend to be conservative, and it starts with the pocketbook.? I think the point I am trying to make is that over the last 20-30 years things have drifted to the right.? Somehow the democrats continue to play catch up.
4) What happens is that you get a bill good for the environment, and the democrats start adding all sorts of amendments that have nothing to do with the environment, which ends up killing the bill. Also, if you want to assign blame in any area, there is plenty to go around.? And what I have observed here, is that there is a willingness to dispense with due process or rule of law when it stands in the way of a desired result.
|
Not sure if any confrontational debates means ANY debates, but I will tiptoe in the opposite direction to address some of your points.
The Democrats do not tell “most Americans” they are racist. ?I’m not sure they tell it to anyone. When was the last time you heard a Democratic leader or ANY Democrat for that matter call someone that? ?I haven’t.
FWIW I too find the they/them silliness ?grating, not to mention it doesn’t even make sense to use a plural pronoun in the singular. ? And if I never hear “pregnant people” again I’ll be very happy, it’s ?just plain dumb. ?And I’m pretty sure no Democrats in Congress or the WH encourage any of this… or discourage it either. ?
But the pronoun wars and other nonsense are pretty recent, while the Democrats’ amazing ability to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory has been going on for decades. ?So I really don’t think that’s it, or if so a very small part.
What is it then? ?Republicans cheat. They don’t fight fair, they bend and twist the laws to give ?themselves unfair advantages, they make personal attacks their entire platform because otherwise they wouldn’t have one. ?For examples I give you Bush vs Gore, I give you Swift-boating, I give you Tan Suitgate (talk about dumb!), I give you a “president” who sat around and fiddled while half a million died, I give you at least two SCOTUS justices who lied to Congress in order to get nominated…. And on and on.
I’d say any one of those is a little more important than the silly pronoun wars. ?But you know Steve, if you or anyone else want to take nonsense like that personally rather than voting for competent, sane candidates who have the nerve to think the country we live in and the planet we inhabit are worth saving… then I guess that’s what ?you should do.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 24, 2022, at 7:29 PM, Steve Sundur via groups.io <steve.sundur@...> wrote:
?I will tip toe in here, but I won't engage in any confrontational debates.
You wonder why, in spite of the horrid selection of republican candidates, the democrats cannot gain any traction?? It is because most Americans are tired of being told they are racist.? That most Americans DO NOT CARE about using "them and they" pronouns and having that agenda thrust upon them.? That most Americans don't understand why some democrats cannot acknowledge that men cannot have babies.? Has it occurred to you that a democrat running on the platform from the Kennedy years, or even possibly the Clinton years would have no chance of securing the nomination because it would be seen as too far right?
There are people like me, a lot of people like me, who feel this way.? We view the positions of the democratic party as basically socialist.? I realize that most in this group embrace those positions, so I won't debate it.? But this is why, in spite of what should be a full-throated rejection of the anti-democratic positions of the republican party the democrats still find themselves losing.?
|
I think "personalities" would be better choice of words.
"But this why, in spite of what should be full-throated rejection of the anti-democratic positions of the republican part the democrats still find themselves losing"
|
I will tip toe in here, but I won't engage in any confrontational debates.
You wonder why, in spite of the horrid selection of republican candidates, the democrats cannot gain any traction?? It is because most Americans are tired of being told they are racist.? That most Americans DO NOT CARE about using "them and they" pronouns and having that agenda thrust upon them.? That most Americans don't understand why some democrats cannot acknowledge that men cannot have babies.? Has it occurred to you that a democrat running on the platform from the Kennedy years, or even possibly the Clinton years would have no chance of securing the nomination because it would be seen as too far right?
There are people like me, a lot of people like me, who feel this way.? We view the positions of the democratic party as basically socialist.? I realize that most in this group embrace those positions, so I won't debate it.? But this is why, in spite of what should be a full-throated rejection of the anti-democratic positions of the republican party the democrats still find themselves losing.?
|
??Have you ever wondered why, despite having so many better, humanitarian ideas and far more qualified candidates nearly all the time, the Democrats keep losing, often to people who aren’t fit to wipe their shoes, much less to hold public office??
Have you ever wondered why the GOP keeps surviving scandal after scandal, simply putting bandaids over the ?huge wounds they inflict on our democracy, on the economy, on the environment , on just about all aspects of life?
Have you ever wondered why, instead of fighting for the people who vote for them, Democrats often turn to demonizing their own, attacking the left and acting more like the GOP than the party of working people they’ve historically been, at least in theory?
Have you ever wondered why, instead of allowing the GOP to constantly control the narrative and get away with obvious doublespeak which oftentimes ?means the exact opposite of what they actually are… “pro-life” “conservative” etc… the Democrats don’t point out these ridiculous inconsistencies which are an insult to the intelligence of everyone who has to listen to them? ?It wouldn’t need to involve anything personal, simply pointing out the framework of lies and amorality the GOP relies on in order to “win”. ? And how it bears no resemblance to any actual reality. ?But they ?can’t even do that. ?They have huge problems with even the most basic messaging. ?Letting treasonous, incompetent boobs like Reagan, Bush and Trump “win” with barely a peep from them, not fighting for their ?supporters or even themselves.?They let the GOP get away with demonizing perfectly respectable terms like liberal and socialist. ? And then when our own tepid candidates lose, totally unprepared for a completely predictable onslaught, it somehow becomes everyone else’s fault.
Newsflash: there’s no such thing as neo-liberalism, it’s simply one step closer to fascism. ?For some it’s an acceptable step. “Nothing will fundamentally change.”
Even when we had bigger majorities than we do now we couldn’t get basic life-saving messures passed, there was no movement on gun control or climate change, the biggest issues of our time. ?The ?bill just passed, however inadequate, is a start, but if that’s the pace we can expect we’ll all be long dead by the time anything else gets done.
This, whatever this is, is untenable. ?Future historians will no doubt wonder how and why the GOP lost its mind, but also how and why the Democrats either followed them to the brink or ?just lay down and played ?dead for decades on end. That is, if there’s anyone left to write it.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 22, 2022, at 10:33 AM, Emily Mae via groups.io <emily.mae50@...> wrote:
?On Sun, Jul 17, 2022 at 12:10 PM, Sal Sunshine wrote:
On Jul 16, 2022, at 12:07 PM, Emily Mae via groups.io <emily.mae50@...> wrote:
You’re beginning to sound like you’re in a cult, dumping on anyone who doesn’t toe the party line.
I'm in a cult because I believe our democracy is in serious danger and I believe we have to stay united in our vote against those in the anti-democracy movement.? Those who would subvert our elections at the local, state, and federal level and put tRump and his allies in power....not for a term....for a lifetime.? Those who are taking over our election infrastructure, waiting for directions from tRump. As we saw in the hearing last night, all they want is to follow their fearful leader and they did, in fact, follow his orders.? Rump wanted to lead his revolution, charge up to the Capitol, and overtake the US government by force.? The SS prevented this, no matter their allegiance to him and their subsequent cover-up.? Thank God they didn't drive him to the Capitol.? So, he did nothing for hours, waiting for his army to win, for the coup attempt to land successfully and for them to maim and kill his opponents, before he rode in and take control, like any good dictator.? He knew "his people," including all those in positions of responsibility and power, would fall in line after the evil deeds were done and I believe most would have and for those that resigned, he would replace them, because they weren't "loyal" enough.? They are members of a cult of personality, not me.?? I'm a realist.? We have two parties, one of which wants to destroy our form of government and is populated by millions of deluded citizens and power-hungry officials and wannabe officials.? Desperate times require desperate measures, so yes, at this point in our history, I believe we have to stay united behind the Democrats, behind our president.? I think tearing down the guy and focusing on what he is doing wrong, instead of what he is doing right and what he has done to try and put this country back together, is a mistake.? I think blaming Biden for not being an all-powerful dictator, able with the stroke of a pen to fix all that is wrong with this country, is a mistake.? I absolutely believe in the vote and more of us need to, despite our disappointments or apathy, because without the vote, we got nothin.? And, the anti-democracy party has already infiltrated our institutions and system to large extent and is doing everything in their power to take it away from us and put a would-be dictator in power, as I right this.? They have a coordinated and purposeful goal and plan-in-motion and we must stay united to ensure that they lose their war against democracy.??
--
Em
|
Ugh, that’s awful, glad you’re on the mend. ?Yes this new variant is everywhere, middle dd and her husband tested positive two weeks ago, ?can’t imagine what might have happened if we weren’t all vaxxed and boosted.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 23, 2022, at 11:57 AM, Emily Mae via groups.io <emily.mae50@...> wrote:
?On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 08:36 AM, Emily Mae wrote:
Forgive my grammatical and spelling errors...my brain is tired.??
Just got over COVID. ?Raging sore throat, bad head cold, fatigue, nausea, felt spaced out and loopy for a few days, like my brain was affected - those were my main symptoms. ?I was sick a couple of days while testing negative and thought I had strep throat. ?No shortness of breath. ?Couldn't get in to the doctor for a test and then finally tested positive, so stayed home for a week. Double vaxxed and double boosted, for what that's worth. ?Not much I read, against this variant. ?Took large doses of Vitamin D and A for three days and a Vitamin C herbal immune support blend. ?Tested positive a few days after I was feeling better and then finally negative. ?I'll be all right, but it's definitely something the body intuitively says..."what the hell is this?" ?I almost never get sick, but it was an unfamiliar thing. ? ? --
Em
|
Sal Sunshine
Emily Mae