Hello,?
I am new to the Daniel Surname DNA Project and to this group. I am trying to trace my line. I can trace it back to one Woodson M Daniel with primary sources. He lived c. 1830 to after 1860 and was married to Susan Elizabeth Kidd and they were from Knoxville, TN. I am descended through their son Marcus Rosencrans Daniel. I am trying to trace their line further back. I have looked at several public trees on Ancestry.com and Familysearch.com. The line seems fairly clear back to a Captain James Daniel from VA who reportedly lived 1709-1761. But there seems to be confusion because there were multiple James Daniels from VA. I learned about the Daniel DNA Project through this page for one of the James Daniels.??Perhaps I will need to do a Y DNA test to confirm who I am descended from. But I dont know how that works. Is there a database of Daniel DNA profiles my test can be compared to? Has anyone already sorted out this line from Woodson M or Marcus R back to the correct James Daniel? Any help will be greatly appreciated!!

Hi David,
? Welcome to the Daniel surname list at groups.io. This list is for all queries about the Daniel, and spelling variants families, not just DNA related queries. Hopefully, someone on the list will be familiar with your Daniels and give you some help.

Taking a Y DNA test would not be helpful for you since Y DNA is passed only from father to son, so would only work if you were a male Daniel. If you can connect to any male Daniels, however, they could take a Y DNA test to prove you line.

Autosomal DNA is only reliable for about 3-4 generations, due to the increasing number of ancestors in each generation we go back and the decreasing amount of autosomal DNA, if any, that we get from our distant ancestors.

If a male Daniel from your line has taken a Y DNA test, they will be able to see the other Daniels who they have matches to. If you do find a male Daniel from your line who has tested, you can also view their results as part of the group of Daniel males who have tested on the Results page of the Daniel DNA web site at , if you know their kit #.

We are happy to help if you have any questions.

Best,

Kevin

I don't know it this is helpful or not:

or this:

I am a male in the Daniel line. Woodson M Daniel is my 3rd great grandfather and I can trace my line back that far with primary documents. So if I do a Y DNA test can i compare my results with an existing database? Or how would I find other Daniel family lines to compare my results to?

Y DNA is passed only from father to son, so unless your direct paternal line is an unbroken string of men with the surname Daniel back to Woodson M. Daniel, your Y DNA would not be the same as his Y DNA. Guessing since your last name is Garner, there is a break in the line of males back to Woodson, unless there has been a name change from Daniel to another surname in your line.

If no one from the line of Woodson M. Daniel is currently participating in the Daniel DNA Project, then it would be necessary to trace the descendants of Woodson M. Daniel to find a male Daniel man from his line for Y DNA testing.

To really prove a line, however, it is necessary to test descendants of at least two sons of the earliest ancestor? who can be proved using primary records. This needs to be done to verify that their Y DNA matches and is then good proof of the Y DNA of their father.

Let me know if helps, or not.

Kevin

I guess I should have clarified. I was born David Daniel. My last name was changed when I was adopted by my stepfather as a child. So that’s where Garner comes from. I am descended in an unbroken male line from Woodson M Daniel. It’s beyond him that I would like to verify. ?

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If you think your Woodson is the same as the find-a-grave Woodson, there is a cheap and easy way to check. You would get an SNP A11115 test from Yseq.org for about $20.

If they are not the same, then you would start by getting a 37 marker test from FTDNA or another organization that provides Y market results.

Find-a-grave Woodson is a descendant of Roger IV Daniel, the progenitor of a fairly well tested lineage that is identified by the A11115. If you think he is yours, I have more info.

"Find-a-grave Woodson is a descendant of Roger IV Daniel, the progenitor of a fairly well tested lineage that is identified by the A11115. If you think he is yours, I have more info."

As far as I am aware, no one can prove descent from Roger Daniel in primary records. There was a DNA based descendency chart which was circulated a few years ago which claimed to show several lines connected to Roger Daniel via Y DNA but there was a 2-3 generation gap in primary record evidence between Roger Daniel and ancestors claimed to descend from Roger Daniel by their living descendants. To prove a connection to an ancestor there must first be primary record evidence to establish the identity of descendants of that ancestor and then the DNA of an ancestor and of the descendants of that ancestor can be established. At the time the chart was being posted, no one I corresponded with could produce any primary record evidence of a connection. Has someone been able to prove descent from Roger Daniel in primary records?

Kevin

"I guess I should have clarified. I was born David Daniel. My last name was changed when I was adopted by my stepfather as a child. So that’s where Garner comes from. I am descended in an unbroken male line from Woodson M Daniel. It’s beyond him that I would like to verify.? "


In that case, if no one who can prove descent from Woodson M. Daniel has taken a Y DNA test, you would be a good candidate. If that is the case, then I recommend joining the Daniel DNA Project and taking the 37 marker test, to start:



How you would proceed from there would depend on what your results are.

First, however, I would confirm whether or not any proved descendants of Woodson have taken a Y DNA test.

Kevin

On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 12:17 PM, Jack Danel wrote:




The farther back the ancestry goes from Woodson Daniel in this FamilySearch tree, the more problematic it becomes. It was proved by primary record research long ago that William Daniel of Middlesex County, VA did not marry Dorothy Forth and was not connected to the Daniel family of Over Tabley or the Chesire Daniels. At this point, William Daniel of Middlesex County, Va is the brick wall for this Daniel line.

Pam Miller is the expert on these Middlesex Daniels, which do not connect at all to Roger Daniel. She has a web site:

http://pamiller.net/genealogy/index.htm

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I believe you are correct that no primary records exist, therefore we have only DNA to use so we must make the best of it.

Primary records are no more trustworthy than DNA since NPEs of all types are mostly ignored. In my own family we have two instances in which the primary records were actual forgeries - one that went undetected for almost a century.

The A11115 is not exclusive to Roger Daniel, but dates back 1000 years. However, all known occurrences in the US claim descent from Roger, unless there are some I do not know about - certainly possible.

Y DNA cannot be used in this fashion.

Y DNA cannot prove a connection to Roger Daniel if his Y DNA is not proved. What this group could prove at the time the chart was published was, as I recall, that several men could be traced back to North Carolina, I think, in the mid 1700s and their descendants shared their Y DNA. No one could make a jump back to Virginia, using primary records, though, much less to Warwick County, VA where Roger Daniel resided. I don't recall all of the details since the chart does not seem to be available any more. I think I made a copy but it is buried in my files.

There was another group about the same time which was in the same boat trying to claim ancestry from the John Daniels of York County, VA.

Y DNA evidence must be supported by primary records to establish ancestry. In some cases a well reasoned argument based on primary records where absolute proof does not exist may be used, but that must be carefully constructed.

I am confused, is Woodson M. Daniel's ancestor claimed to be William Daniel of Middlesex, VA or Roger Daniel of Warick, VA?

Kevin

"I am confused, is Woodson M. Daniel's ancestor claimed to be William Daniel of Middlesex, VA or Roger Daniel of Warick, VA?"

Not Roger directly, but we don't know. There may be more than one Woodson M Daniel. Woodson was a very popular name in the family/families.

The find-a-grave Woodson is son of James Jenkins Daniel, GGGS of Roger.

--------------------------

Also: I overstated the situation with A11115. There are non-Daniels in the US who carry that SNP. But so far as I know, all of the A11115+ Daniels claim descent from Roger.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 09:40 PM, <dgarner.tn@...> wrote:

Hello,?
I am new to the Daniel Surname DNA Project and to this group. I am trying to trace my line. I can trace it back to one Woodson M Daniel with primary sources. He lived c. 1830 to after 1860 and was married to Susan Elizabeth Kidd and they were from Knoxville, TN. I am descended through their son Marcus Rosencrans Daniel. I am trying to trace their line further back. I have looked at several public trees on Ancestry.com and Familysearch.com. The line seems fairly clear back to a Captain James Daniel from VA who reportedly lived 1709-1761. But there seems to be confusion because there were multiple James Daniels from VA. I learned about the Daniel DNA Project through this page for one of the James Daniels.??Perhaps I will need to do a Y DNA test to confirm who I am descended from. But I dont know how that works. Is there a database of Daniel DNA profiles my test can be compared to? Has anyone already sorted out this line from Woodson M or Marcus R back to the correct James Daniel? Any help will be greatly appreciated!!

David,
??? I apologize for hijacking your thread.

??? My advice would be to take the 37 marker test at Family Tree DNA. The current cost for this test is $119. Eventually, you will want to start refining the genetic distance between yourself and other Daniels who you match and you can only do that by comparing your markers to theirs.

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Daniel

??? With regard to testing at YSEQ.net I recommend doing that, as well, since it is very inexpensive, much cheaper than testing for individual SNPs than doing so at Family Tree DNA. Testing a single SNP at YSEQ costs $18, but the first time you do so costs $23 since you will have to do a one time DNA sample submission. I do both, myself. We (men) all share a specific SNP mutation with our close matches, particularly with men who share are surname and are related within a genealogically meaningful time frame. This is called our Terminal SNP.

http://www.yseq.net/

?? Terminal SNPs for your cousin group will change as new, more recent SNP mutations are discovered, so you will likely test for new terminal SNPs several times of a period of years, if you decide to do this. It just depends on how deeply you want to dig into your matches. Most men who do Y DNA testing do not do deeper SNP testing and don't test for their Terminal SNP, relying instead on testing more DNA markers. Some do both.

?? You could go ahead and test for the A11115 SNP as Jack suggested, or wait until you get your Y DNA results and see what the Terminal SNPs of your matches are. It might save you $18 if you don't match A11115, but at least your DNA would already be in YSEQ's database for future testing. I think the cost at YSEQ went down a few dollars recently, but took a quick look and could not find their pricing...
??
? If you have questions about any of this, please feel free to contact me.

Kevin

It’s fine. I appreciate all the info in this discussion. It’s helped me realize how difficult all this is to sort out. I definitely intend to do some DNA testing to see where it goes. I just need to save up the money. I’ve been working on my family tree for over 10 years but never got into the DNA side. Some of my other family lines were already well researched. But I have been disconnected from the Daniel side most of my life. I didn’t even know who my paternal grandfather was until I reconnected with my uncle a couple years ago. He took me to the cemetery where my Daniel grandparents and great grand parents are buried. Turned out it was only a quarter mile from where my mother in law lived and I had no idea! I had even visited that grave yard before and had no clue I had relatives buried there. So I’m basically the first one of my Daniel’s to do this research as far as i know. So I’m starting from scratch. I truly appreciate all the knowledge and advice y’all are sharing.?