Re: Head stock spindle questions
At my shop at Florence Oregon much like Glens in Tillamook
Oregon humidity is high? most of the time.? Even at my home in the Willamette
Valley Oregon again humidity is high.? At my coast shop I have a Sears
dehumidifier running 24 7 and have had for almost 10 years now.? Not one spec
of rust not even a sign of any patina that develops from a high humidity environment.?
At my Home in the Valley my shop here has a heat source and I keep the set at
62.? As I have high ceilings (14 feet) I also have three ceiling fans that I
run during the winter to keep the heat down at floor level rather than sit up
at the ceiling doing no good.? Again no rust or corrosion problem.? Right now I
have all the restored lathes in my car garage that is unheated but well insulated.?
I am also running a dehumidifier in that building and it’s a large building that
is 26 by 80 feet and the one dehumidifier is doing the job again no sign of any
rust on any of the machines they are still as shinny as they were when I put
them in there two years ago.?
?
I do not put anything on any of the machines they are all bone
dry only a bit of light oil on bar surfaces.? My take on all this is keeping
the humidity at 50% ?or a little under is the key to no rust or corrosion problems
in your shop. I will say one thing these two dehumidifiers I run make a ton of
water they also put out a little heat so that helps.?
?
How these machines work is the is using a fan they pass air over
a coil like an air conditioning system in a home.? First they cycle to the cold
side and freeze the water out of the air passing over the coil.? Once the coil
is almost plugged with ice it then switches to the heat cycle and melts the ice
and the water is either stored in a small tank or as I have done by using a
hose the water is drained off outside of the building.? Once the ice has been
melted it them switches back to freezing. ?During the heating cycle the
humidifier gives off a small amount of heat into the building. ??So this is how
I handle the corrosion problem in a high humidity climate.? You guy down in the
South West have it madeJ? Dennis
?
?
?
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On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 07:17 PM, Dennis Turk wrote:
OT
"that Brown lathe"
This got me remembering something which people were talking about in the shaper
group, that is, how do you keep rust away in an unheated building. I store 2
shapers and 4 lathes in my hangar, which allows the wind to whistle past gaps
in the doors. I also store other tools there as well.
?Typically I set a 40 Watt light bulb low under each machine with a
blanket over each to hold that slight heat, and that works pretty well except
that I've had to replace 3 bulbs in the last two weeks. I also rub bare metal
surfaces with one of the three corrosion test winners I keep just for that,
Frog lube, Hornady One shot and WD40 Specialist.
?Regardless, the only way to win in the long haul is to moderate
temperature shifts, eliminate ambient water vapor plus regular surface prep. A
sealed "room" (Cardboard boxes would do) with the one dehumidifier I
have would do for that last item.
?In the tool chest I should have placed some camphor, they say that works
well at stopping rust and the tool boxes in my shop have camphor in the lowest
drawers.
?But now that I know I can't count on 40W light bulbs I bought 8
rectangular heating elements off ebay, a total expenditure (So far) of $96.
Each of these are 150W so my thought is to make a rotary switch that energizes
each heater in succession for a limited time. These will be clamped onto
aluminum plates and placed low so heat rises up under those blankets.
?But I need a way to time these so each machine gets heat (20 minutes?) 3
times a day. This is an acknowledgement that I don't have unlimited $$ or time
to spend keeping rust away.
?So I hope to buy one of those inline electrical timers preset-able to run
6 X 20minutes 3 or 4 times a day, it will also activate a gearmotor that turns
a dialectic drum with brass commutators, one for each successive machine, and
I'd rather not spend weeks building and adjusting it.
?Just what I needed, another project! Any ideas appreciated. An electronic
box that would do all the switching would be nice.
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Re: Head stock spindle questions
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 07:17 PM, Dennis Turk wrote:
OT
"that Brown lathe" This got me remembering something which people were talking about in the shaper group, that is, how do you keep rust away in an unheated building. I store 2 shapers and 4 lathes in my hangar, which allows the wind to whistle past gaps in the doors. I also store other tools there as well. ?Typically I set a 40 Watt light bulb low under each machine with a blanket over each to hold that slight heat, and that works pretty well except that I've had to replace 3 bulbs in the last two weeks. I also rub bare metal surfaces with one of the three corrosion test winners I keep just for that, Frog lube, Hornady One shot and WD40 Specialist. ?Regardless, the only way to win in the long haul is to moderate temperature shifts, eliminate ambient water vapor plus regular surface prep. A sealed "room" (Cardboard boxes would do) with the one dehumidifier I have would do for that last item. ?In the tool chest I should have placed some camphor, they say that works well at stopping rust and the tool boxes in my shop have camphor in the lowest drawers. ?But now that I know I can't count on 40W light bulbs I bought 8 rectangular heating elements off ebay, a total expenditure (So far) of $96. Each of these are 150W so my thought is to make a rotary switch that energizes each heater in succession for a limited time. These will be clamped onto aluminum plates and placed low so heat rises up under those blankets. ?But I need a way to time these so each machine gets heat (20 minutes?) 3 times a day. This is an acknowledgement that I don't have unlimited $$ or time to spend keeping rust away. ?So I hope to buy one of those inline electrical timers preset-able to run 6 X 20minutes 3 or 4 times a day, it will also activate a gearmotor that turns a dialectic drum with brass commutators, one for each successive machine, and I'd rather not spend weeks building and adjusting it. ?Just what I needed, another project! Any ideas appreciated. An electronic box that would do all the switching would be nice.
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Re: Head stock spindle questions
Gleeeeeeen? you were suppose to give that Brown lathe to me to
restore.? BuggerJ? To bad we can’t find a really good Dandy lathe to go with your
Brown.? Dennis the trouble maker.
?
?
?
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On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 08:50 AM, Dennis Turk wrote:
"Also the back gears are 14 pitch which is an obsolete
size tooth size now days. The gears are also 14 ? degree tooth profile and
modern gears are usually 20 degrees these days."
I think I have the 14 set, plus one of the old Haas stepper
driven rotary tables, accuracy to 1/360th degree. To me it's better to either
replace the gear with a ductile iron blank shrunk and screwed in place with 4
setscrews (Turn the old teeth off plus twice again the depth, bore the DI blank
to .003" under or so and shrink it on, and run the setscrews between the
parting line, little #10s) and then cut the teeth. That's what I did on that
Brown lathe but I made the whole gear out of ductile iron, far stronger than
the original.
?Having said that I should say the better way would be to talk with a gear
hobber, because a generated tooth will be a smoother and quieter tooth.
?Cost maybe $400.
Glen
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Re: Head stock spindle questions
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 08:50 AM, Dennis Turk wrote:
"Also the back gears are 14 pitch which is an obsolete size tooth size now days. The gears are also 14 ? degree tooth profile and modern gears are usually 20 degrees these days."
I think I have the 14 set, plus one of the old Haas stepper driven rotary tables, accuracy to 1/360th degree. To me it's better to either replace the gear with a ductile iron blank shrunk and screwed in place with 4 setscrews (Turn the old teeth off plus twice again the depth, bore the DI blank to .003" under or so and shrink it on, and run the setscrews between the parting line, little #10s) and then cut the teeth. That's what I did on that Brown lathe but I made the whole gear out of ductile iron, far stronger than the original. ?Having said that I should say the better way would be to talk with a gear hobber, because a generated tooth will be a smoother and quieter tooth. ?Cost maybe $400. Glen
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Re: Spindle bearings and alignment
Pull the shims out of the left hand bearing cap and see what you
come up with.? You may find its fine.? I do have a long number 3 MT test bar if
you need it.? You put this in the taper of the spindle then you can use an indicator
to run along the top of the bar so you can tell? how parallel the spindle is
with the bed.? I have checked a number of head stocks but never find them off
enough to worry about. ?
?
One other thing you guys need to think about and that is how you
check the movement in the spindle bearings.? When using a test indicator you
are looking for the quick snap of the needle as that is the clearance you
have.? If you continue to apply pressure you will see the needle moving more
but you are bending things.? Remember these machines are made of rubber.? Given
very hard rubber but rubber just the same even cast iron moves under pressure.?
Put a test indictor in the spindle of a Bridgeport type of milling machine? let
the needle rest against the side of the vice.? Then just put your hand on the
side of the head stock and apply pressure and watch the needle move. Sometimes
given the flexibility of our machine tools I wonder just who we can do such precise
work.? ?Dennis
?
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From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of chrisser via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2022 9:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [DaltonLathes] Spindle bearings and alignment
?
I'm a long time from needing to do this, but I'd like to
start accumulating any parts/tools I would need.
My tailstock-side (right) spindle bearings are pretty tight - no detectable
movement just using my hand.? But the change-gear-side (left) bearing has
a lot of play.
The left cap looks like it's been shimmed up, so perhaps removing the shim will
help.
I've read some old posts about shimming the bearing shells themselves and then
scraping them to fit the spindle shaft again.? However, how do we maintain
alignment of the spindle parallel with the ways horizontally and vertically
insuring the spindle is centered in the bearing?? Seems gravity would have
had a hand and the lower bearing shell is more worn than the upper, so that's
probably where most of the wear is going to be.? I haven't measured the
play but it seems like if I extrapolated it to the far end of the bed (like if
I had a long rod chucked up) the far end would have significant up and down
movement like maybe 1/8 of an inch (just guessing).
Or do we just get the spindle centered as best as possible in the headstock and
then adjust the whole headstock to align with the bed?
Am I overthinking this?
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Spindle bearings and alignment
I'm a long time from needing to do this, but I'd like to start accumulating any parts/tools I would need.
My tailstock-side (right) spindle bearings are pretty tight - no detectable movement just using my hand.? But the change-gear-side (left) bearing has a lot of play.
The left cap looks like it's been shimmed up, so perhaps removing the shim will help.
I've read some old posts about shimming the bearing shells themselves and then scraping them to fit the spindle shaft again.? However, how do we maintain alignment of the spindle parallel with the ways horizontally and vertically insuring the spindle is centered in the bearing?? Seems gravity would have had a hand and the lower bearing shell is more worn than the upper, so that's probably where most of the wear is going to be.? I haven't measured the play but it seems like if I extrapolated it to the far end of the bed (like if I had a long rod chucked up) the far end would have significant up and down movement like maybe 1/8 of an inch (just guessing).
Or do we just get the spindle centered as best as possible in the headstock and then adjust the whole headstock to align with the bed?
Am I overthinking this?
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Re: Head stock spindle questions
Sorry Ryan we never did a drawing for the bearings or do we have
anything from Dalton.? I did make a set of bronze bearings for one head stock
but just copied the original other than the bore.
?
As to the gear teeth I have not repaired any gears though I have
made new ones but not for Daltons rather for a South Bend and one Chinky
lathe.? I would be carful if you braze up the tooth.? You really should have an
invalute gear cutter to machine the tooth after it has been brazed.? I have
some but right now not sure if I? have the correct? number cutter for a Dalton
bull gear.? There are six or seven cutters in a gear cutter set and each one is
for a certain range of tooth count.? Also the back gears are 14 pitch which is
an obsolete size tooth size now days. The gears are also 14 ? degree tooth profile
and modern gears are usually 20 degrees these days.? Difference being the one
is a stronger tooth profile and the other is not as strong but smoother
running.? Dennis
?
?
Also I forgot to ask,? Dennis do you have a cad/
drawing of the babbitt bearings casting; or a cad/ drawing of the the bearings?
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Re: Head stock spindle questions
Also I forgot to ask,? Dennis do you have a cad/ drawing of the babbitt bearings casting; or a cad/ drawing of the the bearings?
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Re: Head stock spindle questions
Yes it is pinned, it has a few missing teeth that need to be fix. My plan is to pin and then build up with Silver solder or brazing I don't know what is better as their are mixed opinions on both. Any advice or guidance would be greatly appreciated.?
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Re: Lot 4 backing plate wanted
Still looking for that backing plate Dennis, Will pay all shipping and handling
Thanks Greg
Hi Greg
?
I have one new one that will fit up to a five inch chuck.?
Made for the Lot 2 3 4 and 5 Dalton 1 ? - 12 spindle.? $60 plus
freight.? Message me if interested.? You can email me at dennis.turk2@...
?
Dennis
?
?
?
Hi all, I am looking for a chuck backing plate.
I want to mount a 4" 4 jaw chuck on my lot 4 with a 1.25: x 12 TPI
spindle.
Thanks
Greg
--
Moderator
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Re: What's the skinny on collets in the Dalton?
Chris the original 3C adapter when seated in the spindle taper
was flush to the end of the spindle.? Most 3 MT adapters today that will fit
your lathe have a shoulder that sits outside of the spindle.? This means that
the draw tub must be longer by the difference in the new style nose adapters and
the original Daltons models.?? Now not all is lost because the shoulder on the
draw tube that buts up against the end of the spindle can be machine back to
make the tube longer so the original draw tubes will work with the new style of
nose piece.? Will see what I have for pictures Chris.? OK Chris the first
picture is what the original looks like the second picture shows what the modern
SB style of nose piece looks like.? Either one will work. ?You guys may note in
the first picture the thread protector is an original Dalton and also notice
that this lathe being a very late model Lot 5 has bronze bearings not Babbitt.
Also I have a second thread protector that has straight knurls like the ones I
made this one shown has diamond knurls.? ?Dennis.
?
?
I looking at setting up my Chinese mini lathe up for collets
after I get the new spindle bearings in and I figure I should try to find a
setup that will also work with the Dalton if possible.
Went through a lot of old threads, but I'm still unclear about using collets in
the Lot 5 Dalton spindle.
Do the 3C collets fit the spindle as is, or is a MT adapter required??
Would this be a 3MT to 3C adapter like the mini??
Is a collet chuck a better option?
Is 3C the way to go?? I understand I'd need to obtain a drawbar too.
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Re: What's the skinny on collets in the Dalton?
Apparently, drawbar collet chucks for the Dalton lathes are extremely rare.?? I do happen to have one, but I'll be using it when I can get my Dalton up and running.
?
Rick Turner
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of chrisser via groups.io
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2022 4:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [DaltonLathes] What's the skinny on collets in the Dalton?
?
I looking at setting up my Chinese mini lathe up for collets after I get the new spindle bearings in and I figure I should try to find a setup that will also work with the Dalton if possible.
Went through a lot of old threads, but I'm still unclear about using collets in the Lot 5 Dalton spindle.
Do the 3C collets fit the spindle as is, or is a MT adapter required?? Would this be a 3MT to 3C adapter like the mini??
Is a collet chuck a better option?
Is 3C the way to go?? I understand I'd need to obtain a drawbar too.
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Re: How to sell machinist tools - NE Ohio or thereabouts
Thanks for all the advice.
Talked to Mom and she's not in a huge hurry.? Mostly what spurred this on is it's winter and she's in the snow belt.? She wants to get out of the too big, now empty house and move someplace smaller, less isolated and maybe warmer.? Can't say I blame her - at least the warmer is one reason I'm 4 hours south.
All Dad's accumulated stuff is an obstacle and to her it probably seems like a big hurdle not knowing what any of it is but knowing it has to go and she's basically trapped in the house with not much to do but look around at all the stuff she needs to get rid of.
I'll be going up there to help her out once the worst of the snow is past for the season or sooner if we get a warm spell.
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What's the skinny on collets in the Dalton?
I looking at setting up my Chinese mini lathe up for collets after I get the new spindle bearings in and I figure I should try to find a setup that will also work with the Dalton if possible.
Went through a lot of old threads, but I'm still unclear about using collets in the Lot 5 Dalton spindle.
Do the 3C collets fit the spindle as is, or is a MT adapter required?? Would this be a 3MT to 3C adapter like the mini??
Is a collet chuck a better option?
Is 3C the way to go?? I understand I'd need to obtain a drawbar too.
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Re: spindle nose thread protectors
No Chris the spindle nose on the Lot 2 3 4 and 5 are all the
same. ?I may have just given a bit of extra clearance on for the registration shoulder
behind the thread.? When the spindles are brand new the OD of the thread will
be the same diameter as the registration shoulder but over the years of use the
threads tend to wear down so they seem smaller in diameter than? the registration
shoulder.
? Dennis
?
?
Received one of Dennis' spindle nose protectors.? It's
currently the nicest part of my Dalton.?
Thanks for making them available, Dennis.
I noticed the ID has stepped threads with the smaller set fitting my
spindle.? Is this so it fits the Lots 3-5 with the smaller threads and the
lot 6 with the larger or is there another reason ?
Anyhow, some before and after pics...
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Re: spindle nose thread protectors
Received one of Dennis' spindle nose protectors.? It's currently the nicest part of my Dalton.? Thanks for making them available, Dennis. I noticed the ID has stepped threads with the smaller set fitting my spindle.? Is this so it fits the Lots 3-5 with the smaller threads and the lot 6 with the larger or is there another reason ? Anyhow, some before and after pics...   
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Re: How to sell machinist tools - NE Ohio or thereabouts
From my experience, an auction can be a very good option.? Twenty years ago I sold virtually all of my tools because I needed to simplify my life.? Not only did the auction?group do all the heavy work, but I received net proceeds which surely exceeded my original investment in mostly used tools.? The auction went from 9 am to 3 pm with two auctioneers going much of the time.? I think the key to a successful auction is good publicity.? I did a careful inventory of high value items and made sure that the auction bills listed that inventory.? These were posted well in advance of the sale.? The labor rate for moving the heavy stuff was very fair and the ?sales commission was only 11% because I had a good assortment.? I have since restocked my shop, again with mostly used tools.? I no longer go to auctions because 1) I have too much stuff already, and 2) it is like gambling with your time.? However, I notice that most auctions around here have buyer premiums.? The buyer, not the seller, pays the auction house commission.? This makes it even better for the seller.? Another nice feature of an auction is that when it is over everything, even the junk, is gone.
Regards to all, John M.
Sorry to hear about your circumstances.? Unfortunately all to common problem... we’ve had several estate disposals recently in our local machining ?group. Here are a couple of things people locally have done around Seattle.
1) use an auction house- painless as they come do all the work.? Usually they take most all of the proceeds...and ?often the sales net very little on dollar.
2)sell on Craig’s List - make a list, take good pictures, and advertise on Craig’s list - someone has to be there to oversee the sales, screen out the grifters,and negotiate low ball offers. But lots of good, decent people are also out there, and turn up to buy stuff. The key is to don’t get rolled over by the few knuckleheads. ?
3) (my favorite)local networking approach: ? Reach out to your local hobby Machinist or metal workers group. If your Dad participated in a group, they would be the ones to contact. Pick a weekend, make the list, and decide on what your asking price is... etc. this option has worked well in our area. (I am 75... Beware of the old timers- they are veterans at low-balling each other. AHahahaha)
4) Voc Tech/Community college machining programs - talk to the local part time/Weekend Machinist programs in your moms area.
It’s absolutely not true that academia looks down their nose at the trades. ? Nowadays,?hands on training and education instruction has simply shifted to Vocational or Technical colleges. ?Every 2 and 4year college system in the country has a vast network of professional trade schools and programs graduating people out of their Voc Ed programs. ? ?University level Engineering programs all have Machining classes and extensive shops as well.? Most have weekend and night machining programs for part time students - well attended by hobby machinists. You might get some good advice by contacting the local Machinist program in your mom’s area. ?
The part timers will be highly interested in used, manual machines and tooling.
Good luck, Glenn? I don't know Mom's financial or tax situation so I don't know if donating is going to be a benefit for her.
That said, my grandfather ran the machine shop of one of the universities in Cleveland after he retired.? Was probably two decades ago, but if they still have that and are interested, and it makes sense for Mom financially, it might be an a appropriate place for some of it to go.
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Re: Head stock spindle questions
Dennis:
The check is in the mail.
Thanks,
Joe
On 1/12/22 7:45 PM, Dennis Turk wrote:
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No
pay pal Joe but your check will do just fine.? Send it to
?
Dennis
Turk
PO
Box 683
McMinnville,
Oregon. 97128.
?
And
Glenn your gear went out today and also the spindle nose
protector shipped to WV for the guy that wanted it.? Can’t
remember your name,
sorry.
?
?
Dennis:
That would be fine. Are you a paypal man or a check man?
I'm at 9040 Myers Rd
Centerburg, OH 43011
Thanks,
Joe
On 1/9/22 9:35 PM, Dennis Turk wrote:
Hi
Joe
?
OK
how does $75 and shipping sound.? Can go in a medium
flat rate box for $15.? Dennis
?
?
Hello Dennis:
I saw the apron pictures and the part I need is not there.
I will take the steady rest. I can pay using paypal if that
works for you.
Thanks,
Joe
On 1/8/22 8:46 PM, Dennis Turk wrote:
One
of you guys was asking about steady rest for a Dalton 9
inch.? I just checked and I do have one.? If you look at
the second
picture you can see a small tab is busted off were you
adjust the lower left
finger.? It works OK and also could be repaired by
brazing on a small
piece.??? Let me know ?if the party that was looking for
one wants it.? The design of this steady rest is quite a
bit different
than the ones for the smaller lathes.?? Dennis
?
?
I have a 1925 9” south bend lathe that
had the same bullcone
problem. It had been sitting in storage, since around 1930
and was completely
frozen- as you describe. ?Couple of treatments with Kroll
oil washed out
all the old dried oil and sawdust. ?You are likely dealing
with dried oil
surrounding the bull pin - not mechanical damage. ? Hence
WD 40 had little
effect, as it doesn’t have the penetrating ability of
other solvents. ?You
can also try Spray n Wash. ?it is a common household
cleaner in a green
plastic squeeze bottle. ?It is ?the best dried machine oil
solvent
I’ve ever used. ?Flush liberally and let the fluid run off
the machine
until it comes out clear and bright. Then finish off with
a bit of diesel, to
kill the cleaner, and douse with way oil. ?It’ll be like
new..
Afterwards, You can also squirt the
spray n wash on your
dirty shop clothes before you through them in the
washing machine. ?It
will clean up those oil spots on your t shirts just as
good as your lathe!
Glenn?
On Jan 3, 2022, at 10:17 AM, Ryan Waldt <rwaldt@...>
wrote:
I let the bull/cone gear sit in
wd-40(it what I had, and I
know it for water displacement; I have some Kroil on
the way) the shot pin was
removed(it came out completely) the bull will not
move independently from the
cone gear, how do I decouple the two or should I
retry with the Kroil? Thanks?
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Re: Head stock spindle questions
Looking good.
What's up with that one tooth on the gear in the foreground?? Was it pinned to replace a broken tooth?
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Re: How to sell machinist tools - NE Ohio or thereabouts
Same here Glen. ?I would suggest to anyone: listen to a fellow named Mike Rowe on this subject. ?Mike was the Host of “Dirty Jobs” and is the narrator of “The Deadliest Catch”; ?two TV shows. ?And I say this as someone who seldom watches TV. Mike started a foundation to support the trades since he saw ?the push for college and away from skilled work. ? ?Recently Mike was on the Tim Pool show on Youtube. ?this is a link to it: ?
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"It’s absolutely not true that academia looks down their nose at the trades. ? Nowadays,?hands on training and education instruction has simply shifted to Vocational or Technical colleges."
?If that's why so few high schools have metal working classes I'd have to say that was a bad way to go. My high school did have metals classes and I loved them, and had no money to go on to vocational school after graduation.
?Had I attended high school after they closed the shop down I'd never have started my own shop. I remember dreading every single class I had to take, every day, except that one.
?Of course now they teach other stuff, stuff no one needs to know I think.
?
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Dennis Turk
chrisser
Greg H
