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Crossovers
Greetings everyone!
Regnar rebuilt my DQ10’s about 15 years ago, which included rebuilding the crossovers. The new crossover parts, their quality doesn’t appear to be exceptionally high - the resistors, for example, are the inexpensive ceramic type. I’m guessing the performance of these speakers would improve with a quality crossover, but, I’m not keen to rebuild the whole thing, as some of these boutique parts can be quite expensive - is it worth it? I was thinking of just replacing the seven resistors - would this be enough to affect a noticeable improvement in sound quality/transparency? Thanks, John |
I worked for Dahlquist during two summers in the 1970’s and got a pair in 1977. At that time, there was uncharge for mirror imaging and the hot new thing was mylar capacitors, both of which mine had. I also had mine rebuilt by Regnar around the same time as yours.
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So, regarding your question: I am not someone who rebuilds electronics and I just barely own a soldering iron. But I do wonder about how the upgrades will affect the sound that the founding fathers of Dahlquist wanted. In other words, if they had better wiring, better capacitors and resistors, would they have changed some of the values as these “upgrades” may not have actually made the sound better? Does that even make sense? Anyway, I’ve owned my pair since 1977 and they are still going strong. Glad the group is also! Paul On Nov 8, 2019, at 12:29 PM, John Boros <jsjb@...> wrote: |
GEORGE ABRAHAM
I just purchased some DQ 10's with custom crossovers and both tweeter and piezo replaced with a KEF T27A. The mods are called Rabbid DQ 10 modification. The literature provided was written by Audio Renaissance of Kansas City. I must confess that these guys were on to something as these DQ10's really sing. On Friday, November 8, 2019, 12:29:17 p.m. EST, John Boros <jsjb@...> wrote: Greetings everyone! Regnar rebuilt my DQ10’s about 15 years ago, which included rebuilding the crossovers. The new crossover parts, their quality doesn’t appear to be exceptionally high - the resistors, for example, are the inexpensive ceramic type. I’m guessing the performance of these speakers would improve with a quality crossover, but, I’m not keen to rebuild the whole thing, as some of these boutique parts can be quite expensive - is it worth it? I was thinking of just replacing the seven resistors - would this be enough to affect a noticeable improvement in sound quality/transparency? Thanks, John |
The Regnar kit does use fairly basic components, standard wirewound resistors, Solens capacitors with a sticker over the label to disguise them, etc. Still, though not of the more expensive brands or some sort of exotic boutique type, they are perfectly solid, good parts to use. In fact, if you go with boutique components, performance might decrease as many of those diverge from good engineering practice to chase some woo philosophy that has no merits in actual electronics theory. (Unsealed carbon comp resistors that'll change value as humidity changes, fancy foil in oil caps that are wound so loosely as to be microphonic, etc.) More conventional resistors as you have are well-understood and among the least reactive components in a typical speaker crossover. Going with non-inductive types would be a small improvement, but not significant enough to merit the cost when you've already invested in newer. ? The only thing I'd consider with the resistors since you've already refreshed the crossovers would be to uprate the two 4ohm resistors in the woofer section to some with a higher power rating. I suggest that due to my experience with a pair of DQ-10s that had, at one point, suffered an incident with the crossover boards catching due to those two getting too hot. (Both speakers had the masonite burn through beneath those resistors and were covered in the residue of the beer that was apparently used to end the impromptu Arthur Brown performance.) That, however, is an extreme case and resulted in the woofers being fried. So, it's unlikely you'll push yours so hard. ? Whatever you decide, you needn't worry about changing the sonic signature of the speakers for the worse. The tolerances of the original components were so loose that anything newer will be more accurate and fall well within the range of values the speakers were designed for. ? - John |
John,
I'm currently rebuilding a set of DQ-12s.? They needed the woofer foams replaced (I did that first).? I took a look at the crossovers and desided to rebuild them.? The ceramic resistors are rated at 5 watts, they're about 1 dollar each.? The sealant that encloses the resistors element was looking like it was breaking down - I figured I'd replace as they were fairly inexpensive.? Capacitors do degrade over time so I reached out to Dahlquist and bought the capacitor rebuilding kit.? It was pricey at $260 but the caps supplied are physically huge (I can send you pictures if you want).? The larger size of the caps posed some mounting issues that I was able to work out. One unit is assembled, i plan to finish assembling the second speaker this weekend - then I need to finish up changing the grill cloth.? The resistors were within spec when I tested them.? My suggestion is to change the caps, and if the resistors are suspect in the least, replace them too. I bought these speakers from a gentleman that had major issues since they were new.? One speaker kept blowing fuses.? As I tore down the cross-overs it became appearent that one speaker was wired wrong at the factory.? The 3A fuse was connected to the tweeter, the .75A fuse was connected to the woofer (DQ-12s support bi-amping).? It looks like the decal was actually applied upside down and the HF connection and fuse were labeled for the LF side and vica-versa.? The techs at Dehlquist were very helpful in helping me get this issue resolved. That being said, these speakers are new to be so I won't have a before and after compairison to judge the affects of the cross-over rebuild, but the one speaker I finished last week sounds great. Will |
Agree.? I went with the Regnar Silver upgrade kit for my original 1978 DQ-10s after 40 years with the original crossovers -- and had Regnar do the soldering of all the new components and test the boards and mail them back to me.? The crackling sound (subtle) I occasionally had heard before the new crossovers were installed disappeared.? The sound became a bit clearer and more open, as if a thin veil or light cloth had been covering the speakers before the upgrade.? Otherwise, the speakers sounded the same as before (a bit better and clearer) but still as good, so probably sounded as good as when they were new -- and no more crackles.? For my 63 year old ears, they sounded fabulous and now that my novice soldering skills are tested putting in the newly rebuilt by Regar crossover boards, I will now upgrade my other set of DQ-10s that also have original 40 year old crossovers -- and again have Regnar rebuild the boards and send them back to me for soldering back in place.? They are not cheap, but I figure I will not be around in another 40 years when they need to be redone again, and my enjoyment exceeds the price, which is my litmus test for price/value. On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 4:07 PM John van Son <jpvanson@...> wrote:
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Durs Koenig
开云体育As we know, the DQ-10’s sound excellent.? Has anyone figured out how to remove the metal grills yet still have fabric to hide the admittedly ugly raw speakers?? For a while I ran my speakers without the grills or cloth. ?Sounded better but my wife made me put the covers back on. ? Durs ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Patrick Will ? Agree.? I went with the Regnar Silver upgrade kit for my original 1978 DQ-10s after 40 years with the original crossovers -- and had Regnar do the soldering of all the new components and test the boards and mail them back to me.? The crackling sound (subtle) I occasionally had heard before the new crossovers were installed disappeared.? The sound became a bit clearer and more open, as if a thin veil or light cloth had been covering the speakers before the upgrade.? Otherwise, the speakers sounded the same as before (a bit better and clearer) but still as good, so probably sounded as good as when they were new -- and no more crackles.? For my 63 year old ears, they sounded fabulous and now that my novice soldering skills are tested putting in the newly rebuilt by Regar crossover boards, I will now upgrade my other set of DQ-10s that also have original 40 year old crossovers -- and again have Regnar rebuild the boards and send them back to me for soldering back in place.? They are not cheap, but I figure I will not be around in another 40 years when they need to be redone again, and my enjoyment exceeds the price, which is my litmus test for price/value. ? On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 4:07 PM John van Son <jpvanson@...> wrote:
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开云体育When I refurbished my 10s I just repainted the grills black and installed fresh grill cloth and aesthetically the look great. ? If your concern is that the metals grill adversely affects the sonics then I think you will need to design a whole new grill frame, one that is rectangular, not curved, so that new frame can accommodate a simple flat stretched fabric. ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Durs Koenig
Sent: November 8, 2019 5:17 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [DahlquistSpeakers] Crossovers ? As we know, the DQ-10’s sound excellent.? Has anyone figured out how to remove the metal grills yet still have fabric to hide the admittedly ugly raw speakers?? For a while I ran my speakers without the grills or cloth. ?Sounded better but my wife made me put the covers back on. ? Durs ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Patrick Will ? Agree.? I went with the Regnar Silver upgrade kit for my original 1978 DQ-10s after 40 years with the original crossovers -- and had Regnar do the soldering of all the new components and test the boards and mail them back to me.? The crackling sound (subtle) I occasionally had heard before the new crossovers were installed disappeared.? The sound became a bit clearer and more open, as if a thin veil or light cloth had been covering the speakers before the upgrade.? Otherwise, the speakers sounded the same as before (a bit better and clearer) but still as good, so probably sounded as good as when they were new -- and no more crackles.? For my 63 year old ears, they sounded fabulous and now that my novice soldering skills are tested putting in the newly rebuilt by Regar crossover boards, I will now upgrade my other set of DQ-10s that also have original 40 year old crossovers -- and again have Regnar rebuild the boards and send them back to me for soldering back in place.? They are not cheap, but I figure I will not be around in another 40 years when they need to be redone again, and my enjoyment exceeds the price, which is my litmus test for price/value. ? On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 4:07 PM John van Son <jpvanson@...> wrote:
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GEORGE ABRAHAM
I don't think the metal grill affects the sound....it's there to support the fabric. Many newer speakers have adopted the metal grill without cloth like my Martin Logan's. I do recommend removing the rear grill work to open up the mids and highs. My DQ10's woofer box was beefed up with added internal bracing plus 1/2 inch MDF front board to mount the woofer. The bass is so tight and controlled that's it's frightening. On Saturday, November 9, 2019, 1:32:07 p.m. EST, John Cumming <cumming@...> wrote: When I refurbished my 10s I just repainted the grills black and installed fresh grill cloth and aesthetically the look great. ? If your concern is that the metals grill adversely affects the sonics then I think you will need to design a whole new grill frame, one that is rectangular, not curved, so that new frame can accommodate a simple flat stretched fabric. ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Durs Koenig
Sent: November 8, 2019 5:17 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [DahlquistSpeakers] Crossovers ? As we know, the DQ-10’s sound excellent.? Has anyone figured out how to remove the metal grills yet still have fabric to hide the admittedly ugly raw speakers?? For a while I ran my speakers without the grills or cloth. ?Sounded better but my wife made me put the covers back on. ? Durs ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Patrick Will ? Agree.? I went with the Regnar Silver upgrade kit for my original 1978 DQ-10s after 40 years with the original crossovers -- and had Regnar do the soldering of all the new components and test the boards and mail them back to me.? The crackling sound (subtle) I occasionally had heard before the new crossovers were installed disappeared.? The sound became a bit clearer and more open, as if a thin veil or light cloth had been covering the speakers before the upgrade.? Otherwise, the speakers sounded the same as before (a bit better and clearer) but still as good, so probably sounded as good as when they were new -- and no more crackles.? For my 63 year old ears, they sounded fabulous and now that my novice soldering skills are tested putting in the newly rebuilt by Regar crossover boards, I will now upgrade my other set of DQ-10s that also have original 40 year old crossovers -- and again have Regnar rebuild the boards and send them back to me for soldering back in place.? They are not cheap, but I figure I will not be around in another 40 years when they need to be redone again, and my enjoyment exceeds the price, which is my litmus test for price/value. ? On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 4:07 PM John van Son <jpvanson@...> wrote:
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Aaron Luebke
1st off - Thank you, John, for moving us!? It is certainly much appreciated. ? |
Greetings. I am new to CAS and far from being techie or audiophile expert! I recently purchased a pair of DQ 12’s in need of upgrade/ repair. My first call was to Regnar but they wanted to walk me through taking the speakers apart and sending in the components. What am I paying for? I found Audio Service Corp., Hartford, CT. Brought them in for clean up, new foam surrounds, etc. A week later I picked up virtually “new” speakers... I’ve had Snells and thought they were unbeatable but these sound better- more open... Dedicated tech in the store seemed able and willing to handle any task.... Anyway that’s my 2 cents. Good luck!
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Eric Beckenstein On Nov 8, 2019, at 1:38 PM, pbizzigotti via Groups.Io <orthobiz@...> wrote: |
开云体育Greetings everyone! ? John, thank you for your recommendations. I checked the operating temperature of the two 4 ohm resistors, during playback and they averaged just above ambient temperature. My 61 year old ears now suffer from tinnitus and so I typically listen only in the 40 db range, with peaks around 60 db – don’t think I need to worry about the resistors being a danger and, given that upgrading the crossovers won’t make much of a sonic difference (Regnar rebuilt ~ 15 years ago), I think I’ll just leave them alone, maybe! lol ? On the other hand, lol, on Saturday I was listening to jazz and every time a trumpet played, it didn’t sound good; sounds raspy, never smooth. My first thought was that it’s the piezo; however, today I had another opportunity to listen up close to another noisy trumpet and sure enough, it’s not the piezo, it’s the right tweeter! Sooooo …. ? I don’t have the specs for the original tweeters, nor for mine (are from Regnar), nor do I know where the low and high cut-offs are. I had thought the original Philips drivers were 4 ohms and ?”, but, as always, I could be wrong. Thinking I might be right, however, research provided me these highly rated and cost effective Seas ?” tweeters, three versions of them: ? ? ? ? Our local Home Depot sells Masonite boards, same thickness as the original baffles and at a whopping $9 for a 4 x 8’ sheet. My plan: I will make new baffles so that I can directly replace, switch back to the old if this doesn’t work out. I had read that a technician, with quite a bit of experience using a range of high frequency drivers, said these Seas are not easily surpassed and at the low price, near ideal! The first one is the cheapest, but has the smallest frequency range and is the easiest to drive (8 ohms), while the second and third are essentially the same, but the second is silk, the third an aluminum dome, both with a wider frequency range (may not matter, depending on the high/low cut off values), but closer to the original in terms of impedance, 6 ohms, rather than 8 ?- that leaves me to decide amongst these three. And, this is where you all come in. ? I’m essentially just guessing at all this and would appreciate your thoughts on these choices and/or if there are better options? ? ? Thanks in advance, appreciate everyone’s input. ? John ? ? ? ? Sent from for Windows 10 ? From: Eric Beckenstein
Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2019 7:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [DahlquistSpeakers] Crossovers ? Greetings. I am new to CAS and far from being techie or audiophile expert!? I recently purchased a pair of DQ 12’s in need of upgrade/ repair. My first call was to Regnar? but they wanted to walk me through taking the speakers apart and sending in the components.? What am I paying for??? I found Audio Service Corp., Hartford, CT. Brought them in for clean up, new foam surrounds, etc.? A week later I picked up virtually “new” speakers... I’ve had Snells and thought they were unbeatable but these sound better- more open... Dedicated tech in the store seemed able and willing to handle any task.... Anyway that’s my 2 cents. Good luck! ? Eric Beckenstein > On Nov 8, 2019, at 1:38 PM, pbizzigotti via Groups.Io <orthobiz@...> wrote: > > ?I worked for Dahlquist during two summers in the 1970’s and got a pair in 1977. At that time, there was uncharge for mirror imaging and the hot new thing was mylar capacitors, both of which mine had. I also had mine rebuilt by Regnar around the same time as yours. > > So, regarding your question: I am not someone who rebuilds electronics and I just barely own a soldering iron. But I do wonder about how the upgrades will affect the sound that the founding fathers of Dahlquist wanted. In other words, if they had better wiring, better capacitors and resistors, would they have changed some of the values as these “upgrades” may not have actually made the sound better? > > Does that even make sense? > > Anyway, I’ve owned my pair since 1977 and they are still going strong. Glad the group is also! > > Paul > >> On Nov 8, 2019, at 12:29 PM, John Boros <jsjb@...> wrote: >> >> Greetings everyone! >> >> Regnar rebuilt my DQ10’s about 15 years ago, which included rebuilding the crossovers. The new crossover parts, their quality doesn’t appear to be exceptionally high - the resistors, for example, are the inexpensive ceramic type. I’m guessing the performance of these speakers would improve with a quality crossover, but, I’m not keen to rebuild the whole thing, as some of these boutique parts can be quite expensive - is it worth it? >> >> I was thinking of just replacing the seven resistors - would this be enough to affect a noticeable improvement in sound quality/transparency? >> >> Thanks, >> >> John >> >> > > > > ? ? ? |
Hi John,
I'm an EE and an audio enthusiast of over 50 years, for what it's worth. I highly recommend that you not change any resistors or inductors unless you know that they are out of specification. Wirewound resistors also have a certain amount of inductance as well, so I'd recommend NOT changing resistor types or values unless you cannot find suitable replacements that are equivalent in value. Last year I replaced all the electrolytic capacitors with high quality film caps. The large value ones were also big physically so I had to get creative in mounting them, and needed to mount them off the board, right next to it. I used 18 gauge wire to connect to the crossover, and it worked out well. I found no resistors on my crossovers that were out of tolerance, so they remain stock as did the inductors. The film capacitors made a nice improvement in clarity and staging. The speakers sound great. The previous owner took good care of them and when I bought them 7 years or so ago I refoamed the woofers, bought a Dahlquist LP-1 active crossover, and got a pair of Dahlquist DQ-1W subs that I used instead of the stock stands for the speakers. They're driven by a pair of rebuilt Phase Linear 700b amps, upgraded with White Oak driver boards and ON semiconductor outputs. Also I used a DC protection relay in each amp for safety's sake. I don't want my woofers to become wallpaper if an output transistor goes face down on me. While I'm thinking about it, I want to thank the board moderator for going throught the effort and time to transfer this group to it's new home. It's way better than Yahoo groups was. THANK YOU!!! |
开云体育Dave, Thank you, I will heed your advice, leave well enough alone! And, I, too, want to thank the board moderator for his commitment, time and effort in transferring the group, for perpetuating this valuable resource - thank you! John On Nov 12, 2019, at 1:13 PM, Dave Smith <soldershack@...> wrote:
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Dave - is that to say your DQ-10's are sitting atop the DQ1W subs? On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 1:13 PM Dave Smith <soldershack@...> wrote: Hi John, |
Yes, it worked out great. Here's a picture. Sorry, the original picture showed the whole stack, but when I posted it the pic got cropped on the bottom. But you get the idea :-)
And by the way, the rectangle you see behind the grille cloth on the left side is one of my home theater speakers. It made a nice hiding place for it. |
Wow Dave - Seriously innovative way to incorporate the home theater into the 10!! I was wondering what that mystery shadow was! This makes for a rather impressive structure that elicits the phrase "shock and awe." Bet it sounds great. Do you feel the width of the sub raises the 10 to a good? listening height? I suspect the bottom? lip of the 10 doesn't in any way block the woofer as there is a decent amount of surface around that sub driver.?
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开云体育I have 2 DQ1's, both of which are the same dimensions. Interesting that yours are different.? Do they both have the same driver?? If so, I'd be interested in the degree of change to frequency response. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone |