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For those of you who may be too young to remember Carnation Instant
Breakfast, I apologize for the pun. Am I dating myself? (Hee hee) In
any case, even though ACIM teaches that reincarnation is impossible
because the body isn't real (so we must just be dreaming that we're
living these different incarnations) it also says on P.61 of the
Manual for Teachers, "All that must be recognized however, is that
birth was not the beginning, and death is not the end." Arten and
Pursah talked a lot about different lifetimes, past and future,
including theirs and even a couple of mine. They always reminded me
at some point that like the entire universe, these lifetimes are only
dreams within a dream. I think that like with Buddhism and Hinduism,
an interest in reincarnation is a major part of most people's
spiritual path at some point, and it certainly was mine. I'd like to
hear any experiences you may have had in this area, whether in
remembering past lives or what your thoughts are on this subject.
Love and peace, Gary.

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First, a warm welcome to Sue-chan, and thank you for your postings;
more later I'm sure. As for reincarnation, Linda wrote a fascinating
piece about her experiences which included the following:
He gave us advice and told us things that were going to happen that
did and helped us through a hard time. I realize this is all a dream
within a dream, but it helped us in a way we needed at the time in a
way that we could relate to. I think of it sort of like Pursah and
Arten coming to Gary in a form that helped that was a form he was
comfortable with. It was a way of showing us that we were not alone -
that we had help.

Thanks, Linda. I think what you say here is very much in line with
the way I feel about Arten and Pursah. Ultimately, they are symbolic
of the Voice of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works with each
seeming individual in a way that we can accept and understand, and
uses unreal symbols to reach us. As my teachers asked, "How else
would you be able to hear Him?" So although my ascended visitors
seemed just as "real" to me as anyone else, they wanted to guide me
to the point where I could see that *none* of what I was seeing is
real.

This also relates to the points being made here about the body's
purpose of reversing cause and effect. Fortunately, the Holy Spirit
takes the same things that the ego made and uses them to undo it
through forgiveness of those very same things! As Arten said on
P.171, "You have to learn how to turn the tables on the ego. The
*only* way to forgive what is within is to forgive what *seems* to be
without." Of course any good student of the Course "knows" this, but
how often do we remember to do it when the crap hits the fan? I
certainly remember to do it more often than I ever have, probably
most of the time. So I think one of Arten and Pursah's contributions
was the emphasis they put on being vigilant and getting into the
habit of choosing forgiveness over and over. If you can remember to
choose the Holy Spirit when it's not easy, your ego is being undone.
For as the Course asks, "What is a miracle but this remembering?"
(T447) Love and peace, Gary.

Thanks Gary for that response..... I have a man in my group who keeps saying
you have to forgive yourself first before you can forgive anyone else and I
have tried every way I can to say that it is a simultaneous thing.....that my
brothers are mirroring my lessons to me. I've printed out your response
here about forgiving within by forgiving what seems to be without and I'm
going to read it in my group this morning. If he doesn't need to hear it *I*
certainly do!

Blessings,
Suzanne

garyrrenard wrote:

Past lifes are something to note but not dwell on. I could care less
about past lifes. I am guessing if my intuitional experiences are
correct - I remember during one meditation that I was a black baby
about a year old left in the dessert of perhaps Africa to die of
thirst and starvation. I sat there in the hot sun alone with just a
blanket wrapped around me. In this lifetime I will not visit places
like Arizona, the middle east, or Vegas or any place that has a hot
dessert. I always travel to caribbean type places or places with an
abundance of vegetation. That experience was a visual from
meditating.

Another visual from meditating was that I was a type of Priest of a
high order, dressed like the Pope (seemed like during Roman times) - I
was standing on the bow of a large ship and raising my hand over the
heads of people in a crowd surrounding the boat and blessing them. In
another life which I remember more intrinsically in my being while in
my everyday walking arond state- I was a French solder - an actual
Three Muskateer and I lived in France - and spent a lot of time in
Paris -- I had the cape, the feather hat, and the sword, the whole
bit -- I don't remember if I raped and pillaged alot or if I was just
a noble solder -- I don't know how I died, or if by the sword or not.
I do remember during my first trip to Paris in 1985 - the cobble stone
streets I walked down felt very, very familiar -- I knew I had been in
Paris before in another lifetime, and I knew it was during the
lifetime when I was a Three muskateer (one for all, and all for one).
I enjoyed my vacation in Paris as a young woman here in this life time
just on vacation in Paris, but I felt no need to investigate this past
experience of being in Paris in another lifetime. I also felt no need
to come back and visit Paris again it in this lifetime. I felt the
need to leave it in the past and move on -- and that going back was
uninteresting and unnecessary.

I always felt that it was totally irrelevant to try to remember past
lives or spend time entertaining the idea or if it happened or not or
what happened. Also, I always felt that blaming bad karma in this
life on what we did in a past life is really a believe in a form of
punishment and guilt rather than "forgiveness" So I never felt
comfortable with Karma as it is is often taught in many eastern
religions from that perspective. First of all I could never remember
much or any of my past lives, whether I was so called, bad or good,
and therefore cannot forgive what I can't remember anyway, so why
dwell on it -- it felt ridiculous do try to find out in the past what
is causing my present suffering and then forgive it -- I also
suspected that it would be ridiculous for God causing me to suffer in
this life time for something I did many lifetimes ago for which I
don't remember anyway. So how could I even atone for it, if I did not
even remembe it anyway, and then also -- who really decided if
whatever I did was right or wrong anyway -- who was the judge of that
anyway.

I had a a friend Darrell in Grammer school who was only nine years old
who would steal food everyday from the grocery store to help feed his
family. His mother cleaned houses for a living to raise seven
children on her own. My friend Darrek loved his mother and his
brothers and sisters, and he made sure he did whatever he needed to to
make sure they ate. I mean he was considered a thief in an
authorities (police, shop keeper, school principles eyes) etc. and
perhaps God's eyes according to some religions, but was he really --
and did he really need to pay for that in bad Karmu -- who decided it
was bad. Also, people do things out of obligation, if you are a
soldier in the dream, serving your country - a soldier fights and
kills -- so how can one judge that when that is his job as a soldier (b
(besides the fact that it is just a dream anyway) -- and for those who
kill and hurt others from a state of fear -- that's just an action out
of fear -- or wrong mindedness - anyway - even with Hitler, or Manson -
- I mean it is not a judgement call -- it's about compassion and
forgiveness in understanding why people do what they do -- they feel
separate and afraid and think they can find what they need outside
themselves --- that is just a mistake -- not a judgement call, -- that
is why I always thought if there is karma in the sense of paying for
the wrongs one did in the past, and reaping the rewards of the good
that one did in the past -- it has nothing to do with God. I always
felt it was a made up belief system to keep the world going round and
round and round -- I always suspected that this is exaclty what the
idea of Karma did - kept everyone stuck on the wheel -- so although I
preferred much of the Eastern philosphosies of catholiscism - I knew
that all religions had dogmatic beliefs to overcome in order to
awaken.

I got really honest with myself two years ago, when after a yoga
posture class - I was talking with another yoga student in the
dressing room -- and she got on the subject of Karma -- Anyway, the
conversation ended up with her asking - Why do you want to get out of
the world? Don't you want to be in the world and help people, and
people less fortunate then us such as orphans, starving people, abused
women, war veterans etc, etc. And I had to say, honestly, No, I
don't -- I don't want to be here anymore at all for any reason. I
don't want to hang around here anymore and try to collect some good
karma for a better life next time -- I don't want make up for any bad
Karma life after life. I don't want bad karma, and I don't want good
karma -- I don't want any karma -- I just want out.

It may have sounded shallow to the girl I was talking to -- but I did
not care -- it was the most honest thing I could say -- and hear for
myself -- and it felt right -- and it was just one more step in
realizing I was heading in the right direction with my thinking. It
was another major breakthrough for me in wakinging up -- by hearing
myself say that to her.

Anyway, thought I was share that for people who are wondering if their
lack of interest in the world on the "Mother Teresa" level makes them
feel shallow or uncaring. Or to think they have to stick around to do
so called "good things" in order to win God's favor - is another
insance thought --

It is better to do good from a place where we know we are already good
and perfect, and from a place where we already know that we can never
be anything else.

Thanks for listening.

Love & Light,
Whitney





--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "garyrrenard"
<garyrrenard@y...> wrote:

For those of you who may be too young to remember Carnation Instant
Breakfast, I apologize for the pun. Am I dating myself? (Hee hee) In
any case, even though ACIM teaches that reincarnation is impossible
because the body isn't real (so we must just be dreaming that we're
living these different incarnations) it also says on P.61 of the
Manual for Teachers, "All that must be recognized however, is that
birth was not the beginning, and death is not the end." Arten and
Pursah talked a lot about different lifetimes, past and future,
including theirs and even a couple of mine. They always reminded me
at some point that like the entire universe, these lifetimes are

only

dreams within a dream. I think that like with Buddhism and Hinduism,
an interest in reincarnation is a major part of most people's
spiritual path at some point, and it certainly was mine. I'd like to
hear any experiences you may have had in this area, whether in
remembering past lives or what your thoughts are on this subject.
Love and peace, Gary.

Hi Whitney--I went through the whole past lives phase, too. While it was interesting, it doesn't really resolve anything. There is a good section in the Manual in ACIM (Chapter 24, p. 60), that talks about reincarnation.

Like anything else, it depends on how we use it and whether we allow it to be a helpful tool or just another excuse and distraction of the ego mind. The idea of karma is just another way of carrying on the unconscious guilt in our mind to a new "body" after this one "dies". We'll keep recycling until we decide to cut to the chase and wake up from the dream we made.

Our reality is Spirit, not a body--and the goal of the ego is for us to forget that, because if we ever remember who and what we really are---the ego is done for. The Course gives us a practical curriculum to achieve experiences that will "prove" to us there is another and a better way. Our true Self can be discovered by practicing forgiveness as the Course defines it, and getting in touch with the guidance of our Inner Teacher. As the Course says, it is "highly individualized" in the sense that we each may follow a different path to get to this point. It also says that once we become aware of this better way, we will be guided to awakening.

The hardest thing for us to accept is the personal responsibility for our own predicament. We are not a victim of "others" or circumstance:

"Outside the Kingdom, the law that prevails inside is adapted to "What you project you believe". This is its teaching form, because outside the Kingdom learning is essential. This form implies that you will learn what you are from what you have projected onto others, and therefore believe they are. In the Kingdom, there is no teaching or learning, because there is no belief. There is only certainty. God and his Sons, in the surety of being, know that what you extend you are." T-7.II.3

What we see in others that upset us or anger us, is really what we have projected out from our mind so we can believe it is not in us. We have to bring it all back inside the mind and let the Holy Spirit "undo" this belief in separate others--so we can remember and uncloud the blocks to memory of who we really are. Once we accept the fact that this world is a projection (think about a movie in a movie theater when you get lost in the movie), then it becomes a classroom that reflects back to us what is really going on in our own mind. This is what we have to undo. We projected a giant smokescreen of a world to block us from the light of reality.

This undoing takes a while (may be thousands of years or may be an instant), because we have a powerful mind which we have used wrongly and had the "tiny mad idea" that we could actually exist apart from or be God. This one tiny idea--a speck in the timeless universe of Thought was powerful enough to create what we call our world. The problem is--it didn't work. We can never separate ourselves from God because God created us. God will not interfere with our "experiment" because He knows we never really left. We created the concept of "time and space" to give meaning to our illusion. God is outside time and space. Our so-called separation was over and corrected simultaneously---outside time and space. However we are trapped in our own dream because we layered so much illusion and distraction over our guilt from separation from God--that we took ourselves deeper and deeper into the dream. But in reality we never left, and this memory of God (the Holy Spirit) can never leave
us. We all will eventually wake up.

God's Love is extended constantly and continuously---it is always there for us to receive. We block it. Jesus is a man who woke up. His message in ACIM leads us to awaken:

"If you want something else you will make something else, but because it is something else, it will attack your thought system and divide your allegiance. You cannot create in this divided state, and you must be vigilant against this divided state because only peace can be extended. Your divided mind is blocking the extension of the Kingdom, and its extension is your joy. If you do not extend the Kingdom, you are not thinking with your Creator and creating as He created." T-7.VI.12

In other words, we're our own worst enemy. God is not out to get us for the "separation"--it was a blip on God's radar screen that is already over. We did this "oh my god, oh my god...we thought about being God ourselves and now He's going to get us" thing and took it to the degree of ridiculous. Now we see that reflected in the world we made to hide in--it's ridiculous. That's basically it. It's ridiculous. No one in their right mind would actually choose to come here. We're like the kid that got caught and then keeps digging himself deeper and deeper with lies about what he did. "Oh, what a tangled web we weave....", etc.

What the Course does is explain to us what happened and how and why---then proceeds to teach us how it can be undone. As we do this, the benefits we receive experientially--little tastes of Heaven--become more frequent until the scales are tipped in the other direction about what we believe is real and unreal. Once we come to believe and accept who we are 100% without reservation---the rest disappears--poof! Just like a dream does when we wake up. How long "in time" it takes to do this is up to us. We are the ones "in time"--not God, so it really is irrelevant outside time and space.

Forgiveness, as practiced in ACIM is practical because once we realize all of our "problems" are our own projections we can change our mind about how we deal with them. We don't. We let the Holy Spirit deal with them. So we turn our "world into a classroom" and have the opportunity to take everything in our past and present life which causes us anything but peace and joy---and look at it with Jesus or the Holy Spirit for what it is. Nothing. As we change our perception of the world, it begins to reflect back to us in "right perception" and if I love you, I will see love. What we believe about "others" is what we will believe about ourselves.

Simple, but not easy. Our mind is powerful and has a lot "vested" in the illusion we made. But as the Course says, it may be foolproof, but it isn't God-proof. We are still God's creation with all of His power which is more than a match for the ego we made up---but like the Prodigal son, we left Home as One, and we must return as One. Every act of forgiveness, every loving thought, every time we let the Holy Spirit guide us instead of our own wrong-mindedness---we are undoing separation and moving back Home---not just for ourselves but for each other. Because in reality, we are each other.

Love and Peace--Joe

loveholdsnogrievances <loveholdsnogrievances@...> wrote:<<<I don't want to hang around here anymore and try to collect some good karma for a better life next time -- I don't want make up for any bad Karma life after life. I don't want bad karma, and I don't want good karma -- I don't want any karma -- I just want out. It may have sounded shallow to the girl I was talking to -- but I did not care -- it was the most honest thing I could say -- and hear for myself -- and it felt right -- and it was just one more step in realizing I was heading in the right direction with my thinking. It was another major breakthrough for me in wakinging up -- by hearing myself say that to her.
Anyway, thought I was share that for people who are wondering if their lack of interest in the world on the "Mother Teresa" level makes them feel shallow or uncaring. Or to think they have to stick around to do so called "good things" in order to win God's favor - is another insance thought --
It is better to do good from a place where we know we are already good and perfect, and from a place where we already know that we can never be anything else.
Thanks for listening.
Love & Light,
Whitney





--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "garyrrenard"
<garyrrenard@y...> wrote:

For those of you who may be too young to remember Carnation Instant
Breakfast, I apologize for the pun. Am I dating myself? (Hee hee) In
any case, even though ACIM teaches that reincarnation is impossible
because the body isn't real (so we must just be dreaming that we're
living these different incarnations) it also says on P.61 of the
Manual for Teachers, "All that must be recognized however, is that
birth was not the beginning, and death is not the end." Arten and
Pursah talked a lot about different lifetimes, past and future,
including theirs and even a couple of mine. They always reminded me
at some point that like the entire universe, these lifetimes are

only

dreams within a dream. I think that like with Buddhism and Hinduism,
an interest in reincarnation is a major part of most people's
spiritual path at some point, and it certainly was mine. I'd like to
hear any experiences you may have had in this area, whether in
remembering past lives or what your thoughts are on this subject.
Love and peace, Gary.

---------------------------------

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here's a question; why would we agree to a karmic experience if this physical world is an illusion???
Oakland Mayor's Commission on People with disabilities
~Tamar Mag Raine~
tamarmag@...
IM: tamarmag48

From Jimbruck

Did I just see someone (write)say..'If this physical world is an
illusion?'
IMHO.. The physical world is something created By Holy Spirit to
further It's own development.
There are many reasons for this..

What is an egotistic universe? BTW?

kind reggards
James


--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "bluewave2404"
<kevin7575@c...> wrote:

Mag,

That's like asking: why are we here in this egoic universe? The
answer is that we aren't. The Sonship just forgot to laugh. The
ego "agreed" to everything else, but the ego isn't real. How can
nothingness agree to nothing? It can't.

Kevin


--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "Tamar Raine"
<tamarmag@e...> wrote:

here's a question; why would we agree to a karmic experience if

this physical world is an illusion???

Oakland Mayor's Commission on People with disabilities
~Tamar Mag Raine~
tamarmag@e...
IM: tamarmag48


----- Original Message -----
From: bluewave2404
To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
Sent: 5/12/2005 3:10:45 PM
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: Reincarnation

Instant

Breakfast

Karma is something that we agree to before we are born, and I

think

you are correct when you write that it is something we want to

move

beyond. Without dualism there is no karma or suffering, and who
needs dualism? ..only the ego.

As for doing good deeds in the world:

"Kindness created me kind.
Helpfulness created me helpful."
Lesson 67

It depends upon our motivation. If we think that we should

perform

good deeds to atone for our sins, then we are using guilt as our
motivation. However, if we do good deeds because we feel guided

and

strengthened when we do, then I think it is helpful for speeding

up

our journey-without-distance back to Heaven.

Kevin







Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Disappearance_of_the_Universe-unsubscribe@...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

We forgot this world was an illusion - and the world itself is a
place of duality - right and wrong, good and bad, darkness and
light, night and day - birth and death, innocent and guilty, youth
and age - sickness and health, rich and poor, large and small,
Beautiful and ugly, tall and short, fat and thin, new and old, and
and on - where there is no perception of duality - only light, there
is no karma.
Hope that helps.
Whitney

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "Tamar Raine"
<tamarmag@e...> wrote:

here's a question; why would we agree to a karmic experience if

this physical world is an illusion???

Oakland Mayor's Commission on People with disabilities
~Tamar Mag Raine~
tamarmag@e...
IM: tamarmag48


----- Original Message -----
From: bluewave2404
To: Disappearance_of_the_Universe@...
Sent: 5/12/2005 3:10:45 PM
Subject: [Disappearance_of_the_Universe] Re: Reincarnation Instant

Breakfast

Karma is something that we agree to before we are born, and I

think

you are correct when you write that it is something we want to

move

beyond. Without dualism there is no karma or suffering, and who
needs dualism? ..only the ego.

As for doing good deeds in the world:

"Kindness created me kind.
Helpfulness created me helpful."
Lesson 67

It depends upon our motivation. If we think that we should

perform

good deeds to atone for our sins, then we are using guilt as our
motivation. However, if we do good deeds because we feel guided

and

strengthened when we do, then I think it is helpful for speeding

up

our journey-without-distance back to Heaven.

Kevin







Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Disappearance_of_the_Universe-unsubscribe@...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

Thanks Kevin

Yeah, I mean reincarnation can be interesting and entertaining --
and the idea that we lived before and never really died but just
continued in a different body and dream can give me a sense of
eternity but other than that I just don't want to spend to much
energy on it unless it comes up for review in helpin me wake up.
Whitney

--- In Disappearance_of_the_Universe@..., "bluewave2404"
<kevin7575@c...> wrote:

Hi,

Joe and Whitney, you made some great points. Thank you. Whitney,
some thoughts came to my mind while reading your post.

"A memory is just as real an image as any other image. They're

all

the same. Forgive them and be free." -Pursah 245

Thus it is just as important to forgive memories/experiences of
reincarnation as it is to forgive what we currently perceive.
Whitney, you do make a great point that we do not need to seek

these

memories/experiences of reincarnation, but we do not need to avoid
them either. I don't think Gary seeks knowing about his
reincarnations as if they are something special, and I think it's
pretty cool when he shares his experience of them as they

naturally

seem to come to him.

Karma is something that we agree to before we are born, and I

think

you are correct when you write that it is something we want to

move

beyond. Without dualism there is no karma or suffering, and who
needs dualism? ..only the ego.

As for doing good deeds in the world:

"Kindness created me kind.
Helpfulness created me helpful."
Lesson 67

It depends upon our motivation. If we think that we should

perform

good deeds to atone for our sins, then we are using guilt as our
motivation. However, if we do good deeds because we feel guided

and

strengthened when we do, then I think it is helpful for speeding

up

our journey-without-distance back to Heaven.

Kevin