开云体育

ctrl + shift + ? for shortcuts
© 2025 开云体育
  1. D-STAR23cm
  2. Topics

Disappointed with 23cm digital data

 

I must say I agree with the assessment by KB9MWR regarding the so called high speed digital data. The DD is so poorly impemented that hacking into the modem and running AX25 would probably be better. Full duplex would certainly help, but why bother, off the shelf WiFi gear is much cheaper, much faster, and much easier to configure.

I have done some tests to a DD gateway and used several internet speed tests to get a throughput of about 70 to 90KBps. That was with me as the only user. Add more users, especially hidden users, and I'm sure the speed would drop like a rock.

Worst of all, there is no way to tell what the quality of the link is. Strong signals don't necessarily mean good signals, but with this system you absolutely need a strong signal.

Sorry for such a negative post. I might be selling my ID-1 soon.

Al
erwestgard
 

--- In D-STAR_23cm@..., "let_cyber" <kb2ayu@...> wrote:

I must say I agree with the assessment by KB9MWR regarding the so called high speed digital data.
You have the speed about right- 90kb or so. It is half duplex. We are big fans for DD mode for several reasons
1. Zero interference
2. Huge power output (legal 10+ watts)
3. Good RF design- we run muliple units side by side all day long
4. Fine for web /data applications (no support for bidirectional streaming)
5. Zero analog adjustments needed
6. Security through obscurity (boring to hackers)
7. Designed for long range (routine 20 mile + hops)

There are up and down s meters on the unit, and a ping -t run for a few minutes gives you an excellent view of path quality. As an ISP replacement DD mode is a poor substitute for 802.11g/n etc.
[email protected]
 

I think a lot of people have been disappointed with the DD mode's data rate, and the 70 to 90 kbps rate via a DD gateway is typical of my own experience also. However,? a 70 to 90 kbps data rate is still far better than what I can get out of 1.2 kbps packet radio. Keep in mind that the DD mode is just another tool available for us to use where it is appropriate.

Consider a scenario where I needed to establish both data and voice communications for an ARES or RACES event over a 10 to 20 mile radius. I guess I could just grab my cell phone and my WAN data card for the laptop and I'm good to go. Heck, I don't even need any amateur radio gear.

But, consider an ARES or RACES event where I am in a location that doesn't have cell phone coverage, or a situation where the local cell phone coverage is impaired or down completely. As an amateur radio licensee, what's available to me now over that 10 to 20 mile radius? Voice is rather easy to accomplish over that distance with any number of VHF/UHF frequencies and modes. But, what about data? Well, I can grab my trusted packet radio TNC and that would likely work just fine. But, I can grab an ID-1 and get over 50 times the data rate compared to my packet radio TNC. My data rate is far higher with DD mode than packet radio and I have a HIPPA compliant data path on top of that, if that were a factor. What other amateur radio based technology would be available to me that offered a 70 kbps to 90 kbps data rate over that 10 to 20 mile radius path??

Is DD mode as fast as a Wi-Fi connection? No, but that's an apples versus oranges comparison.
Could DD mode be more efficient? Yes, and it would be great if the bit twiddlers amongst us can help make that happen.

At the current time, DD mode can be the best amateur radio based data communications solution for certain situations. And, just to consider the ID-1 overall, don't forget you have an analog 23 cm FM radio at your disposal and a D-Star DV mode radio as well, and with DV mode you have additional data communication options, such as D-RATS.

73,

Gary
WB5PJB
 

开云体育

Al,

?

You are absolutely correct. Compare this to Wi-Fi and it definitely loses.

?

BUT, AFAIK, this is the only Amateur Radio Only commercially available high-speed mode that we have available, unlike Wi-Fi where we add amplifiers (as non-hams do illegally) and call it Amateur Radio. 90 Kbps (not KBps) is pretty much what most people advertise as the capacity (once the TCP/IP layer is taken into consideration).

Multiple people don’t necessarily mean that the speed is going to drop, that’s the way TCP/IP and the Internet works. If you put five people on a network connection, the odds that they will simultaneously be doing data transfer is pretty low. Even if you are actively browsing Web pages, you load a page and then sit back and read it.

?

So sure, go out and buy a cellular mode, a Clear device, a satellite connection, or jump on hot spots. But none of those are amateur radio and within the realms of our control. Or maybe look at what others are doing with it, such as a few of the Marathons.

?

I was definitely a little disappointed that the high speed data transfer of the ID-1 was not as much as I had desired and about 10 years late to market. But then again, we’ve got people still enamored with 1200 baud AX.25 packet, which is now only 30 years old.

?

?

But in any case, if you don’t believe that you will get any use out of your ID-1, please put it up for sell, as there’s a number of people wanting good deals on them!

?

Ed WA4YIH

?

?

?

From: D-STAR_23cm@... [mailto:D-STAR_23cm@...] On Behalf Of let_cyber
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 12:35 AM
To: D-STAR_23cm@...
Subject: [D-STAR_23cm] Disappointed with 23cm digital data

?

?

I must say I agree with the assessment by KB9MWR regarding the so called high speed digital data. The DD is so poorly impemented that hacking into the modem and running AX25 would probably be better. Full duplex would certainly help, but why bother, off the shelf WiFi gear is much cheaper, much faster, and much easier to configure.

I have done some tests to a DD gateway and used several internet speed tests to get a throughput of about 70 to 90KBps. That was with me as the only user. Add more users, especially hidden users, and I'm sure the speed would drop like a rock.

Worst of all, there is no way to tell what the quality of the link is. Strong signals don't necessarily mean good signals, but with this system you absolutely need a strong signal.

Sorry for such a negative post. I might be selling my ID-1 soon.

Al

spamfree
 

Hi Al, and the group,

I have spent some time in the parking lot of the nearby HRO store in Salem NH, and my measurements agree with your results. One advantage is that it sits in the TCP stack, so "everything" works with it, but some serious disadvantages are there if you try to do anything requiring speeds comparable to (home) broadband performance. On the other hand, most AX25 applications require a dedicated software interface between the computer and the AX25 hardware, and then you get into the Windows/Mac/Linux problem, and other configuration issues that are app-specific.

I have not been able to do any tests with hidden transmitters, much less multiple users, but my guess is that your estimate is correct as well. One of the reasons why I can't do any more testing is because of the dearth of ID-1 users in this part of the US. And that is sort of a chicken-egg problem because of the lack of 1.2 GHz DSTAR repeaters, and their lower range, here in the New Hampshire hills.

If you decide to sell yours, let me know. I might want to put it in my XYL's car, and we can text each other. It should be fast enough for that.....

During my testing I was capturing everything coming and going from my laptop using tcpdump(8), and I duplicated the tests with a Windows machine using Wireshark. I was surprised with the amount of incidental TCP and UDP traffic that was coming and going from background (hidden) apps and the OS, in both cases. This is not a big deal with broadband or fiber speeds, but when you are slightly faster than dialup, it starts to be a significant percentage of the total, not to mention causing the transmitter to engage without apparent reason (and thereby adding to the channel congestion).

73,
Dave
KZ1O

--- In D-STAR_23cm@..., "let_cyber" <kb2ayu@...> wrote:

I must say I agree with the assessment by KB9MWR regarding the so called high speed digital data. [...]

I have done some tests to a DD gateway and used several internet speed tests to get a throughput of about 70 to 90KBps. That was with me as the only user. Add more users, especially hidden users, and I'm sure the speed would drop like a rock.
[...]

Sorry for such a negative post. I might be selling my ID-1 soon.

Al
 

开云体育

I always recommend to put a router in between the radio and the computer(s). There are a couple of benefits.

?

·???????? If it is a dedicated router, then you can setup the IP address and never worry about it again

·???????? The router can perform NAT and DHCP

·???????? The router reduces a significant amount of broadcast traffic from the network

·???????? If you use a wireless router, then there are no connections to the PC

?

A ID-1, power supply, antenna, coax, and a router combine together in a pretty awesome little go-kit. If you get one of the routers that run off of 12V, then add a battery and a case and you get portable Internet access!

?

Ed WA4YIH

?

From: D-STAR_23cm@... [mailto:D-STAR_23cm@...] On Behalf Of spamfree
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 12:13 PM
To: D-STAR_23cm@...
Subject: [D-STAR_23cm] Re: Disappointed with 23cm digital data

?

?



Hi Al, and the group,

I have spent some time in the parking lot of the nearby HRO store in Salem NH, and my measurements agree with your results. One advantage is that it sits in the TCP stack, so "everything" works with it, but some serious disadvantages are there if you try to do anything requiring speeds comparable to (home) broadband performance. On the other hand, most AX25 applications require a dedicated software interface between the computer and the AX25 hardware, and then you get into the Windows/Mac/Linux problem, and other configuration issues that are app-specific.

I have not been able to do any tests with hidden transmitters, much less multiple users, but my guess is that your estimate is correct as well. One of the reasons why I can't do any more testing is because of the dearth of ID-1 users in this part of the US. And that is sort of a chicken-egg problem because of the lack of 1.2 GHz DSTAR repeaters, and their lower range, here in the New Hampshire hills.

If you decide to sell yours, let me know. I might want to put it in my XYL's car, and we can text each other. It should be fast enough for that.....

During my testing I was capturing everything coming and going from my laptop using tcpdump(8), and I duplicated the tests with a Windows machine using Wireshark. I was surprised with the amount of incidental TCP and UDP traffic that was coming and going from background (hidden) apps and the OS, in both cases. This is not a big deal with broadband or fiber speeds, but when you are slightly faster than dialup, it starts to be a significant percentage of the total, not to mention causing the transmitter to engage without apparent reason (and thereby adding to the channel congestion).

73,
Dave
KZ1O

--- In D-STAR_23cm@..., "let_cyber" <kb2ayu@...> wrote:
>
> I must say I agree with the assessment by KB9MWR regarding the so called high speed digital data. [...]
>
> I have done some tests to a DD gateway and used several internet speed tests to get a throughput of about 70 to 90KBps. That was with me as the only user. Add more users, especially hidden users, and I'm sure the speed would drop like a rock.
> [...]

> Sorry for such a negative post. I might be selling my ID-1 soon.
>
> Al
>
 

Agreed. 23 cm analog voice, done right, is more potent than VHF or UHF with a power amp.

See:







If you can't get IP dial-tone due to failure of the ISP, no wi-fi connections, no power, etc, the ID-1 is an excellent way of maintaining basic data/email connectivity.

Ron H

garypjb@... wrote:


<snip>

At the current time, DD mode can be the best amateur radio based data communications solution for certain situations. And, just to consider the ID-1 overall, don't forget you have an analog 23 cm FM radio at your disposal and a D-Star DV mode radio as well, and with DV mode you have additional data communication options, such as D-RATS.

73,

Gary
WB5PJB

__
 

I tend to agree with you on a lot of points here Ed.

Overall it's about 10 years to late like you said. But if there was a good deal I can look past some of that. Unfortunately I don't consider the ID-1 price a good deal.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I'd like to see a stripped down version. No radio head, or analog/ DV modes, just DD. Perhaps only 1 watt. Something under the $300 mark.

--- In D-STAR_23cm@..., "Woodrick, Ed" <ewoodrick@...> wrote:

Al,

You are absolutely correct. Compare this to Wi-Fi and it definitely loses.

BUT, AFAIK, this is the only Amateur Radio Only commercially available high-speed mode that we have available, unlike Wi-Fi where we add amplifiers (as non-hams do illegally) and call it Amateur Radio. 90 Kbps (not KBps) is pretty much what most people advertise as the capacity (once the TCP/IP layer is taken into consideration).
Multiple people don't necessarily mean that the speed is going to drop, that's the way TCP/IP and the Internet works. If you put five people on a network connection, the odds that they will simultaneously be doing data transfer is pretty low. Even if you are actively browsing Web pages, you load a page and then sit back and read it.

So sure, go out and buy a cellular mode, a Clear device, a satellite connection, or jump on hot spots. But none of those are amateur radio and within the realms of our control. Or maybe look at what others are doing with it, such as a few of the Marathons.

I was definitely a little disappointed that the high speed data transfer of the ID-1 was not as much as I had desired and about 10 years late to market. But then again, we've got people still enamored with 1200 baud AX.25 packet, which is now only 30 years old.


But in any case, if you don't believe that you will get any use out of your ID-1, please put it up for sell, as there's a number of people wanting good deals on them!

Ed WA4YIH
 

The ID-1 is a good value if you use it's entire capabilities instead of only?the DD mode.
?
I use my ID-1s with analog FM & D-STAR Digital Voice repeaters in addition to the High-Speed (DD) data mode.
?
If one only wants to do data transmission?there are commercial data only solutions that are less expensive & offer faster data speeds. ?
?
73, Mark, WB9QZB

From: kb9mwr
To: D-STAR_23cm@...
Sent: Sun, October 25, 2009 1:57:37 AM
Subject: [D-STAR_23cm] Re: Disappointed with 23cm digital data

?

I tend to agree with you on a lot of points here Ed.

Overall it's about 10 years to late like you said. But if there was a good deal I can look past some of that. Unfortunately I don't consider the ID-1 price a good deal.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I'd like to see a stripped down version. No radio head, or analog/ DV modes, just DD. Perhaps only 1 watt. Something under the $300 mark.

--- In D-STAR_23cm@ yahoogroups. com, "Woodrick, Ed" wrote:
>
> Al,
>
> You are absolutely correct. Compare this to Wi-Fi and it definitely loses.
>
> BUT, AFAIK, this is the only Amateur Radio Only commercially available high-speed mode that we have available, unlike Wi-Fi where we add amplifiers (as non-hams do illegally) and call it Amateur Radio. 90 Kbps (not KBps) is pretty much what most people advertise as the capacity (once the TCP/IP layer is taken into consideration) .
> Multiple people don't necessarily mean that the speed is going to drop, that's the way TCP/IP and the Internet works. If you put five people on a network connection, the odds that they will simultaneously be doing data transfer is pretty low. Even if you are actively browsing Web pages, you load a page and then sit back and read it.
>
> So sure, go out and buy a cellular mode, a Clear device, a satellite connection, or jump on hot spots. But none of those are amateur radio and within the realms of our control. Or maybe look at what others are doing with it, such as a few of the Marathons.
>
> I was definitely a little disappointed that the high speed data transfer of the ID-1 was not as much as I had desired and about 10 years late to market. But then again, we've got people still enamored with 1200 baud AX.25 packet, which is now only 30 years old.
>
>
> But in any case, if you don't believe that you will get any use out of your ID-1, please put it up for sell, as there's a number of people wanting good deals on them!
>
> Ed WA4YIH
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

 

Mark, I understand that.

I just have noticed a lot of interest in the high-speed data part since all the other D-Star radios lack that part. So I tend to think that is the major selling part of it. (For instance; the 1.2 GHz DD at Wausau and Milwaukee were the first parts deployed I believe)

I just think there might be a market for another option for people. If they want all the capabilities, then yes buy and ID-1.

And for those who can't choke down the price, and perhaps because there is no 1.2 DV or analog repeaters but they want to try what they are missing with their VHF/UHF D-Star radios..... Another option. And the advantage despite the slower data rate is that is can inter-operate with other ID-1's and RP2D's.

That's my $.02

--- In D-STAR_23cm@..., Mark Thompson <wb9qzb_groups@...> wrote:

The ID-1 is a good value if you use it's entire capabilities instead of only?the DD mode.

I use my ID-1s with analog FM & D-STAR Digital Voice repeaters in addition to the High-Speed (DD) data mode.

If one only wants to do data transmission?there are commercial data only solutions that are less expensive & offer faster data speeds. ?

73, Mark, WB9QZB




________________________________
From: kb9mwr <kb9mwr@...>
To: D-STAR_23cm@...
Sent: Sun, October 25, 2009 1:57:37 AM
Subject: [D-STAR_23cm] Re: Disappointed with 23cm digital data

?
I tend to agree with you on a lot of points here Ed.

Overall it's about 10 years to late like you said. But if there was a good deal I can look past some of that. Unfortunately I don't consider the ID-1 price a good deal.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I'd like to see a stripped down version. No radio head, or analog/ DV modes, just DD. Perhaps only 1 watt. Something under the $300 mark.

--- In D-STAR_23cm@ yahoogroups. com, "Woodrick, Ed" <ewoodrick@ ..> wrote:

Al,

You are absolutely correct. Compare this to Wi-Fi and it definitely loses.

BUT, AFAIK, this is the only Amateur Radio Only commercially available high-speed mode that we have available, unlike Wi-Fi where we add amplifiers (as non-hams do illegally) and call it Amateur Radio. 90 Kbps (not KBps) is pretty much what most people advertise as the capacity (once the TCP/IP layer is taken into consideration) .
Multiple people don't necessarily mean that the speed is going to drop, that's the way TCP/IP and the Internet works. If you put five people on a network connection, the odds that they will simultaneously be doing data transfer is pretty low. Even if you are actively browsing Web pages, you load a page and then sit back and read it.

So sure, go out and buy a cellular mode, a Clear device, a satellite connection, or jump on hot spots. But none of those are amateur radio and within the realms of our control. Or maybe look at what others are doing with it, such as a few of the Marathons.

I was definitely a little disappointed that the high speed data transfer of the ID-1 was not as much as I had desired and about 10 years late to market. But then again, we've got people still enamored with 1200 baud AX.25 packet, which is now only 30 years old.


But in any case, if you don't believe that you will get any use out of your ID-1, please put it up for sell, as there's a number of people wanting good deals on them!

Ed WA4YIH




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
 

开云体育

The ID-1 was sold without the control head at one point. No one bought them so they evidently went back to including it.

?

For the price to go down, they need to sell a lot more. I doubt if you’ll see it going under the $300 mark anytime soon, the other radios will have to get there first.

?

What I do hope is that they are thinking about a tri-band mobile that combines the capabilities into one, especially if it is a dual or tri receiver device that allows the 1.2 to function at the same time as 440 or 2M.

?

And you probably won’t get 1 watt either. You want the power on 1.2 GHz. If it were to drop to 1 watt, it would indeed be too competitive with WiFi and therefore not well received.

?

Ed WA4YIH

?

From: D-STAR_23cm@... [mailto:D-STAR_23cm@...] On Behalf Of kb9mwr
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 2:58 AM
To: D-STAR_23cm@...
Subject: [D-STAR_23cm] Re: Disappointed with 23cm digital data

?

?

I tend to agree with you on a lot of points here Ed.

Overall it's about 10 years to late like you said. But if there was a good deal I can look past some of that. Unfortunately I don't consider the ID-1 price a good deal.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I'd like to see a stripped down version. No radio head, or analog/ DV modes, just DD. Perhaps only 1 watt. Something under the $300 mark.

--- In D-STAR_23cm@..., "Woodrick, Ed" wrote:
>
> Al,
>
> You are absolutely correct. Compare this to Wi-Fi and it definitely loses.
>
> BUT, AFAIK, this is the only Amateur Radio Only commercially available high-speed mode that we have available, unlike Wi-Fi where we add amplifiers (as non-hams do illegally) and call it Amateur Radio. 90 Kbps (not KBps) is pretty much what most people advertise as the capacity (once the TCP/IP layer is taken into consideration).
> Multiple people don't necessarily mean that the speed is going to drop, that's the way TCP/IP and the Internet works. If you put five people on a network connection, the odds that they will simultaneously be doing data transfer is pretty low. Even if you are actively browsing Web pages, you load a page and then sit back and read it.
>
> So sure, go out and buy a cellular mode, a Clear device, a satellite connection, or jump on hot spots. But none of those are amateur radio and within the realms of our control. Or maybe look at what others are doing with it, such as a few of the Marathons.
>
> I was definitely a little disappointed that the high speed data transfer of the ID-1 was not as much as I had desired and about 10 years late to market. But then again, we've got people still enamored with 1200 baud AX.25 packet, which is now only 30 years old.
>
>
> But in any case, if you don't believe that you will get any use out of your ID-1, please put it up for sell, as there's a number of people wanting good deals on them!
>
> Ed WA4YIH
>
>

erwestgard
 

--- In D-STAR_23cm@..., "Woodrick, Ed" <ewoodrick@...> wrote:

The ID-1 was sold without the control head at one point. No one bought them so they evidently went back to including it.

For the price to go down, they need to sell a lot more. I doubt if you'll see it going under the $300 mark anytime soon, the other radios will have to get there first.
We position the ID-1 as a club owned asset- you have a few of them and you use them with your repeater(s). We have about 15 up here various places, mostly installed in emergency vans and EOCs. DD Mode for us so far seems to be absolutely perfect for large scale, real world public service and a little boring and limited vs. the Internet for individual hamshack use.

The cost issue is all about sales volume and parts order sizes. I think they are repeater frequency constrained in Japan so use this band a fair amount.

1 - 12 of 12