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Hey Tim. I am going to be retro'n my bench top unit. As you can tell by my
misinformed posts, I'm still learning my way around. I have no preference
for windows based or DOS, I've used both over the years and wouldn't know
which is best [if there is even a difference.]
Though I have a ton of questions I've been unable to locate answers for with
my web searches.
thanks for your help I'll check out the two you recomend.
Owen

HI
anyone know what cards Gerber used for their controllers
ie. Galil,Yaskawa,Delta-Tau or other ???

thanks
Carl

Hi Marv,

get on the webpage and check post 45509.

that is the best way to start with the engineering and math that will
let you arrive at your answer.

Steppers are much easier to use, and have a simple work envelope.

Servo's offer some pretty strong motors for a smaller space.

With your note about not having any $$ involved, I think that most
stepper guys want to move up to servo's and I have not heard of any
servo guys trying to move to steppers. Just my 2 cent observation.

Dave



--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., Marv Frankel <dcdziner@p...> wrote:

Tim,
I presently have no $ invested in any equipment other than

the mill.

Why would the servo/G320 scenario be better for me.

Marv Frankel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Goldstein" <timg@k...>
To: <CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y...>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Stepper motor speeds

Sounds like I was thinking of someone else's project. Seems to me

the

sizes I have heard used successfully with a mill that size is 800+
in/oz. I would probably want to use about an 1100 in/oz motor or

bigger.

Definitely in the range where if you don't have money invested in

motors

or drives you are likely to get by for less and get better

performance

by going with servos and Gecko G320/340 drives.

Tim
[Denver, CO]

-----Original Message-----

Tim,
I guess it's my engineering background that makes me
want to plug all the components into a formula, and come out
with an exact answer. The mill I'm going to convert, is a
full size Enco, about the size of a Bridgeport, 1 1/2 HP
variable speed motor, 8" X 36" table, and driven by a VFD.
I'd rather oversize the motors, and have some torque to
spare, but I was just trying to save a little space on the
quill feed, by using a slightly smaller motor. Thanks for the
direction.

Marv Frankel
Los Angeles

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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

Hi Bruce,

check out your software vendor.

they should offer some guidelines as to what codes they offer.

I am still playing with a drill peck cycle and found there are at
least 4 codes to drill, drill-peck (return to Z zero), drill-peck
(return to 'x' above last cut) and so on.

these are not all supported in all software.

And I would hope that most vendors offers a sample file too.
something simple, but so that you can see the headers needed to
initalize.

Dave

Hi Tim,

I had thought Servo's had all you said, but that they were a LOT
harder to implement.

There is an interesting link here :


top of the page


Dave




--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., "Tim Goldstein" <timg@k...> wrote:

Much better performance (faster rapids, higher acceleration) and

likely

less cost. Servo motors do not need to be as large as steppers

because

they do not have the same torque drop off. They also can put out

very

high peak torque for short bursts. When you combine that with large
servo motors frequently being less money than large steppers it

becomes

an easy decision. Less money, more performance.


Tim
[Denver CO]

-----Original Message-----


Tim,
I presently have no $ invested in any equipment other
than the mill. Why would the servo/G320 scenario be better for me.

Marv Frankel

Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 06:30:22 -0600
From: Ray Henry <rehenry@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Polar Coordinates CNC?

Well, yea. I can see the device but it seems to me that by the time you
build C with center bearings, drive, and some sort of support for
cutting forces around the outside of the suggested 4' diameter you'd have
more work into it than a conventional mill and all to save two slides, a
ball screw, and their supports.

A turntable with skate wheels around the OD sitting on a 1/4 thick, flat
rolled sheet would probably be flat enough for most CNC router work.
They usually are happy with a 6 inch Z travel. Remember the X is fixed
and technically it only has to go to the center. 2 feet of precision guide
ways to support an axis that in all other designs requires 4 feet plus
another 4 feet of support on each side. This is a major reduction in
complexity with very little loss of resolution, repeatability, or massiveness.

I did recently see a mega lathe with a C axis on the flat like this. The
turntable (spindle) had to be 10 - 12 feet across.

My interest was actually sparked in making a small bench top machine.
I'm thinking 12x12 inches rectangle (on the turntable), maybe less. 6
inch Z height. Rack and pinion on the X and Z w/B-W skate wheel guides,
and a large spur gear and pinion w/ motor mounted vertically, underneath
the turntable. disk overhang protects the moving parts from dust and swarf.
Angle Iron/channel frame. Might be a kick-butt kind of kit or entry level
machine with a router motor installed.

Best Regards, Fred Smith- IMService

Listserve Special discounts and offers are at:

For those of you considering a purchase of a commercial DRO:

I swallowed hard and about a year ago bought and installed a Shooting
Star 3 axis DRO on my full sized mill. I have been very pleased with
it's accuracy and have come very dependent on it to help me build
precision plates and parts for my large CNC table I am working on.
During some machining on a Sunday 8 days ago, the readout started to
dim and the readings became suspect. I dashed off a request for help
from the company and got a reply on Monday from the General Manager
that they would ship out a replacement the next day so I could get
back on my project by this weekend; no "send the defective one back
first" or "call technical support and see if we can fix it over the
phone" type of nonsense. Wow.

This kind of attention to customer support needs to be acknowledged!
If you haven't looked at the unit, they advertise in HSM or their web
site at www.star-techno.com. Really great people to do business
with....even if they live in Canada!

Now, if I can talk them into offering their pack and pinion rotary
encoders to the CNC builders at a discount price we can really have
something to talk about.

--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., "Don" <donkiwi@y...> wrote:

My problem is that the torque amplifiers have 50V 3-phase motors
(50Hz, 1/40 hp, 2750 r.p.m.) which are integral to the units.
Repowering them with single phase or D.C. motors would be a mission
and I am attempting to build a 3 phase 50V power supply to run from
single phase domestic supply (230V, 50Hz, neutral-earthed).
I have built a "Rotary Converter" prototype from internet search
info,....which doesn't work....
Can anyone help me with it, please ? Any suggestions for a good CNC
controller ?

Don: Whew!! 1941 bombsite parts...that's a REAL challenge. There
exists sufficent talent in this group to help you design a 3 phase
50HZ converter. It would be my advice to lurk in the shadows for a
few weeks and follow the threads on steppers, servos, controllers and
software. Go to the links the members provide and visit the sites of
some of the members listed. You will discover several things: (1)
The prices are much more reasonalble on all of the components to make
a good CNC machine than they were even two or three years ago. (2)
The mechanical part of the construction is only about 50% (perhaps
less) of the challenge. You will be presented with a bewildering set
of choices for CAD, CAM and Controller Software. You will be forced
to invest a LOT of time in learning whatever software programs you
choose.

My personal advice is to pick up the torque amplifiers, walk to any
open window you have available and toss them as far as you can manage.

Hi Fred.

Well, yea. I can see the device but it seems to me that by the time you
build C with center bearings, drive, and some sort of support for
cutting forces around the outside of the suggested 4' diameter you'd have
more work into it than a conventional mill and all to save two slides, a
ball screw, and their supports.

I did recently see a mega lathe with a C axis on the flat like this. The
turntable (spindle) had to be 10 - 12 feet across. There was an X gantry
that looked more like a press brake spanning the whole wheel. Z with a
tool holder hung from one side of the gantry. The shop guy said they
found it in a farmers field and that it had been surplus from the Rock
Island Arsenal. It took several guys a few months to clean up and get
going. He thought it could hold 0.0005 on an 8' diameter wheel but he's
still looking for a micrometer that size.<g>

Ray

--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., "qwerty12345612" <qwerty12345612@y...>
wrote:

Have you tried right clicking on the setup program for AutoCAD and
running it in compatability mode(under "properties" after right
clicking)?
its worked for me a bunch of times when I tried to install a
stubborn program that didnt want to install on XP, giving me the
old "Not a compatable OS"error dialog.

Qwerty,

It worked! Thanks for the advice! I was afraid that I would have to
either dump XP, or upgrade to AutoCAD 2002 (which is way out of my
budget)



Thanks for the help

At 04:32 04/11/2002 +0000, you wrote:

I did some research on the 23 frame motors we're using. They come from Shinano:


You can download a data sheet for the 23 frame motors and torque
curves are provided. Typical step rates are nowhere near 1200 RPM.
Typical values are 800 to 2000 pps. At 200 steps/rotation this is
equivalent to 600 RPM tops, and most are closer to 300 RPM.

This makes me think I'm not doing so badly with 3300 pps. I'd still
like to hear from anyone getting faster rates from 23 frame motors.

Brian -

I have a Taig mill that uses Taig's own unipolar/bi-level chopper drive - it seems to max out at about 0.3 IPS, which is about 2400 (half) steps/second. The motors are relatively low current, high voltage (200 oz-in motors but only 1A/phase) - may explain why the performance is not as good as your figures.

My DivisionMaster automatic indexer, which uses L297/L298 with a 19V supply, can drive size 23 motors at up to around 5000 half-steps/sec.

One factor here is that the indexer is probably seeing a much smaller load (72:1 or 90:1 worm drive, relatively light table with ball bearings everywhere, vs 20 TPI leadscrews & significant sliding friction to overcome). Another factor worth looking at may well be jitter (or lack of it) in the pulse train - as someone else has observed in this thread, variations in pulse timing look to the motor like demands for rapid acceleration/deceleration, and therefore affect the max speed that you can attain without losing steps.


Regards,
Tony

Try running the autocad installation program with the compatibility mode set
on, it should run when set to Win9x or similar. Although it may not,
depends on whether compatibility mode also sets the operating system
differently.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 01:09:20 -0000
From: "dgmachinist" <scsm@...>
Subject: AutoCAD compatibility

Hi all,


I just installed Windows XP on my computer so I could run Mach1.
The problem with this is that now I can't install my copy of AutoCAD
2000 (educational version). It says that XP is an "invalid OS". Is
there any way I can get around that? Any help would be appreciated
seth

Hi,

The problem is caused by AutoCAD querying the OS for it's version number
which it expects to be less than or equal to v5, which equates to
Windows 2000. Windows XP returns v5.1, and the AutoCAD installer assumes
this is something wacky, and refuses to install.

The answer is to go into accessories/program compatability and set the
the OS version to be Windows 2000(=v5) for the AutoCAD install only. I
did this myself a few months ago, when installing Acad 2000 on my XP
machine, can't remember the details off hand, but if you cannot get this
to work, drop me an email, and I'll dig out my notes.

Peter Moreton




Message: 18
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 01:09:20 -0000
From: "dgmachinist" <scsm@...>
Subject: AutoCAD compatibility

Hi all,


I just installed Windows XP on my computer so I could run Mach1. The
problem with this is that now I can't install my copy of AutoCAD
2000 (educational version). It says that XP is an "invalid OS". Is
there any way I can get around that? Any help would be appreciated

Hi, Gents.

I stumbled across and joined this Group yesterday, and would
participate with your indulgence.
I am endeavouring to patch together an odd "homebake" assortment of
gear of various vintage to build a multiple axis CNC controller.
The history of the project goes back some years to a time when large-
torque stepper motors, power supplies and controllers were
prohibitively expensive or unavailable.
I decided to cheat.
The system I originally envisaged would use a vector type graph
plotter, the motors of which (minimal in*oz torque reqired) are to
drive the mechanical inputs of some lovely little WWII vintage torque
amplifiers which I have, which talk Ft*lbs at the output and could
win arguments with young stilson wrenches. These outputs are to drive
the 1" diameter ball-screws I have for my X-Y-Z table project, or
axis wheels on mills, or whatnot.
My problem is that the torque amplifiers have 50V 3-phase motors
(50Hz, 1/40 hp, 2750 r.p.m.) which are integral to the units.
Repowering them with single phase or D.C. motors would be a mission
and I am attempting to build a 3 phase 50V power supply to run from
single phase domestic supply (230V, 50Hz, neutral-earthed).
I have built a "Rotary Converter" prototype from internet search
info,....which doesn't work....
Can anyone help me with it, please ? Any suggestions for a good CNC
controller ?
I will not take up space here with it again, but can supply details
to anyone kind enough to respond.
Alternatively, someone might want to convince me that I am on a
Fool's mission and steer me toward some particular controller / power
supply / stepper-motor configuration that would be appropriate. I do
not have any Brand-familiarity with CNC gear at present, but am
learning here!
Incidently, the Torque Amplifiers are from 1941 mechanical
analogue "Predictor" units used to coincide artilliery shells with
bombers and set the time-fuses to the time-of-flight. Amplifiers were
used to boost the output of a mechanicat integrator(!) of Euclidean
elegance which involved a disc driving a cylinder via a sphere with
pathetic work capability! Cylinder-angle = INT(Radius of ball
contact.disc-angle).
Now shells are smarter than guns, and everything has gone
digital ......sigh....

Cheers, Gents. Don.

hi all

well, i build special routers for small and medium stoneworking-
companys, and most(none) of the users doesnt know anything about cnc.
normaly, they give me 1-3 days for training and then expects to
be "pro" ;-)
however, most of them really fixes it,not very complicated stuff,
cutouts and engravings, still, good enough for them. i found fc to
have some handy features that makes it possible to place "any" guy at
the machine and get the job done. i even let them choose from a
number of controlers and found that they all prefer fc. i dont belive
expensive=good. really, the price is peanuts for a functional,
stable, commercial, supported(blink,blink YA), and clean interfaced
controler for us oem?s. still, i think some "hobby-level" controlers
soon may be stable enough for oem?s as well, like mach1, wich i know
the author puts a lot of efforts in.

JS

Depends what you mean by "like Flashcut". If you mean a windows based
controller than look at Mach1 or DeskWinNC. If you mean a turn key
system than we need to know what type/size machine to give you some
ideas. If it is for a Sherline sized machine than take a look at the
package that Dan at Camtronics is offering. $500 for a turn key 2.5 amp
3 axis controller. Add $300 for 3 motors and $100 for a Mach1/Master5
license and you have a complete system for $900 that will run with the
best of them.

Tim
[Denver, CO]

Much better performance (faster rapids, higher acceleration) and likely
less cost. Servo motors do not need to be as large as steppers because
they do not have the same torque drop off. They also can put out very
high peak torque for short bursts. When you combine that with large
servo motors frequently being less money than large steppers it becomes
an easy decision. Less money, more performance.


Tim
[Denver CO]

At 23:58 03/11/2002 +0000, you wrote:

At 4:26 PM +0000 11-03-02, turbulatordude wrote:

Size 42, 300 to 600 RPM, 800 in-oz or more low-speed torque.
Size 34, 600 to 1,200 RPM, 150 to 450 in-oz low-speed torque.
Size 23, 1,200 to 2,400 RPM, 50 to 150 in-oz low-speed torque.
Size 17, 2,400 to 4,800 RPM, less than 50 in-oz torque.

This seems too fast to me. Perhaps you would comment on this. Looking
at a 23 frame motor, in half step mode (400 steps per rotation), 1200
RPM means 480,000 steps per minute or 8,000 steps per second. I am
currently experimenting with 23 frame motors on Sherline tools using
both the Xylotex bipolar driver and a unipolar driver of my own
design. I'm stalling out at 3300 steps per second tops. It seems
unlikely that this tool will ever run twice as fast as I'm seeing,
and you list 1200 RPS as the low end.

I'm feeding both drivers with 24 volts.

Supply voltage, probably. As Mariss keeps reminding us, double the supply voltage & you double the top speed. Unfortunately, you are close to the limit for what the Xylotex board will handle, so you are not going to get a doubling of top speed here unless you can use motors with higher current ratings (which will have lower inductance). In other words, get as close to the 35V, 2.5A/phase limits as you possibly can.

Interestingly, one of the things that the numbers above seem to indicate is that gearing down a size 23 motor by 2:1 gets you pretty much the same place as using a size 34 motor driving direct, and potentially for less money.


Regards,
Tony

Hi Group
While this is OT the shopbuilttools yahoo group may interest some people on this group. While nominally a woodworkers forum it has files including plans for various things including;
Compound milling vice
Compression spring winder
Toolmakers vice, etc

Regards

Bob Thomas

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO
group.

File : /Stepper Calcs/Stepper Calc.txt
Uploaded by : alenz2002 <alenz@...>
Description :

You can access this file at the URL



To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit



Regards,

alenz2002 <alenz@...>