On Saturday 19 October 2002 11:25 am, you wrote: Thanks Marv, I spent 3 hours looking on the internet last night for suppliers of the stuff and all I could find was the companies that actually do the casting and moldmaking. I really appreciate it. Scot Scot,
Try this web site: . It was one I got for
casting leadscrew nuts, but I noticed they also had materials for casting
machine bases.
Marv Frankel
Los Angeles
Hey there list,
I've been lurking on and off on this list for a year or so and I was
wondering if anyone out there has done any research into Polymer concrete
castings for machine bases. I have a CMS GT Sprint cnc lathe and the
base is
made of the stuff. It's actually really neat stuff. It has all of the good
quaities of real stone and vibration & dampening charactheristics that
are up
to 30 times stronger than conventional materials. I.E. Steel & Granite. My
main objective is to find out the most common ingredients and proportions for
mixes that would be good for small scale industrial machine bases. Any info
would really help. I want to play around with the stuff.
Thanks in advance,
Scot
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Was discussed extensively a year or so back. I would suggest taking a
dive into the archives. Remember that each search is only a small
segment of the archives and you have to keep hitting previous to go back
in time. Getting no items found only means in the segment you are
searching and not in the total archive.
Tim
[Denver, CO]
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
Hey there list,
I've been lurking on and off on this list for a year or so and I was
wondering if anyone out there has done any research into
Polymer concrete
castings for machine bases. I have a CMS GT Sprint cnc lathe
and the base is
made of the stuff. It's actually really neat stuff. It has
all of the good
quaities of real stone and vibration & dampening
charactheristics that are up
to 30 times stronger than conventional materials. I.E. Steel
& Granite. My
main objective is to find out the most common ingredients and
proportions for
mixes that would be good for small scale industrial machine
bases. Any info
would really help. I want to play around with the stuff.
Thanks in advance,
Scot
Addresses:
FAQ:
FILES:
OFF Topic POSTS: General Machining
If you wish to post on unlimited OT subjects goto:
aol://5863:126/rec.crafts.metalworking or go thru Google.com
to reach it if you have trouble.
I consider this as a sister site to the CCED group, as many of the same members are there, for OT subjects, that are not allowed on the CCED list. NOTICE: ALL POSTINGS TO THIS GROUP BECOME PUBLIC DOMAIN BY POSTING THEM. DON'T POST IF YOU CAN NOT ACCEPT THIS.....NO EXCEPTIONS........
|
Re: Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but maybe CNC
On Saturday 19 October 2002 11:17 am, you wrote: That's right. Then the capacitance drops when the caps are in paralell, right? Scot,
The voltage ratings of Caps in series is the sum of
their individual ratings, and in parallel it's the same
as the lowest rating of the individual caps.
Bill Higdon
On Friday 18 October 2002 09:45 pm, you wrote:
But doesn't the voltage rating drop to half when you run caps in series
and double when you run them in paralell?
Scot
SO, say two 33k resistors in series would equal to 66k resistance?
And two 1000uF capacitors in parallel would equal 2000uF
capacitance??
Regards,
Jim
--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., "Lloyd Leung" <lloyd@l...> wrote:
So:
- Resistors are in series [to gain resistance]
- Capacitors are in parallel [to gain uF]
I really should remember that, but I've only use it maybe once in 23
years [once in my life thus far]
-----Original Message-----
From: wanliker@a... [mailto:wanliker@a...]
Sent: October 18, 2002 11:16 PM
To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y...
Subject: Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but
maybe CNC
In a message dated 10/18/2002 5:15:26 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
lloyd@l... writes:
Btw, I forget if that was in series or parallel, it's been a few
months Always in parallel to add values..............Often, makes a nicer
package
depending on the dimensions......
bill Addresses:
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Re: Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but maybe CNC
Scot,
The voltage ratings of Caps in series is the sum of
their individual ratings, and in parallel it's the same
as the lowest rating of the individual caps.
Bill Higdon
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Friday 18 October 2002 09:45 pm, you wrote:
But doesn't the voltage rating drop to half when you run caps in series and
double when you run them in paralell?
Scot
SO, say two 33k resistors in series would equal to 66k resistance?
And two 1000uF capacitors in parallel would equal 2000uF
capacitance??
Regards,
Jim
--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., "Lloyd Leung" <lloyd@l...> wrote:
So:
- Resistors are in series [to gain resistance]
- Capacitors are in parallel [to gain uF]
I really should remember that, but I've only use it maybe once in 23
years [once in my life thus far]
-----Original Message-----
From: wanliker@a... [mailto:wanliker@a...]
Sent: October 18, 2002 11:16 PM
To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y...
Subject: Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but
maybe CNC
In a message dated 10/18/2002 5:15:26 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
lloyd@l... writes:
Btw, I forget if that was in series or parallel, it's been a few
months Always in parallel to add values..............Often, makes a nicer
package
depending on the dimensions......
bill Addresses:
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are not allowed on the CCED list.
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Re: Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but maybe CNC
On Friday 18 October 2002 09:45 pm, you wrote: But doesn't the voltage rating drop to half when you run caps in series and double when you run them in paralell? Scot SO, say two 33k resistors in series would equal to 66k resistance?
And two 1000uF capacitors in parallel would equal 2000uF
capacitance??
Regards,
Jim
--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., "Lloyd Leung" <lloyd@l...> wrote:
So:
- Resistors are in series [to gain resistance]
- Capacitors are in parallel [to gain uF]
I really should remember that, but I've only use it maybe once in 23
years [once in my life thus far]
-----Original Message-----
From: wanliker@a... [mailto:wanliker@a...]
Sent: October 18, 2002 11:16 PM
To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y...
Subject: Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but
maybe CNC
In a message dated 10/18/2002 5:15:26 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
lloyd@l... writes:
Btw, I forget if that was in series or parallel, it's been a few
months Always in parallel to add values..............Often, makes a nicer
package
depending on the dimensions......
bill Addresses:
FAQ:
FILES:
OFF Topic POSTS: General Machining
If you wish to post on unlimited OT subjects goto:
aol://5863:126/rec.crafts.metalworking or go thru Google.com to reach it if
you have trouble.
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site to the CCED group, as many of the same members are there, for OT
subjects, that are not allowed on the CCED list.
NOTICE: ALL POSTINGS TO THIS GROUP BECOME PUBLIC DOMAIN BY POSTING THEM.
DON'T POST IF YOU CAN NOT ACCEPT THIS.....NO EXCEPTIONS........
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Hey there list,
I've been lurking on and off on this list for a year or so and I was
wondering if anyone out there has done any research into Polymer concrete
castings for machine bases. I have a CMS GT Sprint cnc lathe and the base is
made of the stuff. It's actually really neat stuff. It has all of the good
quaities of real stone and vibration & dampening charactheristics that are up
to 30 times stronger than conventional materials. I.E. Steel & Granite. My
main objective is to find out the most common ingredients and proportions for
mixes that would be good for small scale industrial machine bases. Any info
would really help. I want to play around with the stuff.
Thanks in advance,
Scot
|
Re: Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but maybe CNC
In a message dated 10/19/2002 1:12:57 PM Central Standard Time, scotr@... writes: But doesn't the voltage rating drop to half when you run caps in series and
double when you run them in paralell?
No, Scott! Probably someone else has answered this more "teacher-like", later in the board, today, but I hafta throw in MY response now, before I "loose place": Capacitors in parallel have the SAME "working voltage" as the lowest of the bunch, but the capacitance ADDS. Resistors ADD when put in series, and for parallel, the INVERSE of the SUM of the resistance of PARALLEL resistors equals the SUM of the INVERSE of each resistor in the bunch. Lessee if I can "type" that here: 1/R(total) = 1/R(1) + 1/R(2) + 1/R(3) + . . . Yeah! That's it! For caps, ONLY if each was "ideally equal" in the MOLECULARLY-SMALL details, could you simply ADD the working-voltage of each. In practice, the "practical" working voltage of caps simply in series would be hardly more than that of the least in the string. But, if you connect "voltage-sharing resistors" like I described above for someone else (or was it in response to a note from YOU???), the WVDC would add. Jan Rowland, Old Big Ugly
|
In a message dated 10/19/2002 1:08:22 PM Central Standard Time, scotr@... writes: I've been lurking on and off on this list for a year or so and I was
wondering if anyone out there has done any research into Polymer concrete
castings for machine bases. I have a CMS GT Sprint cnc lathe and the base
is
made of the stuff. It's actually really neat stuff. It has all of the
good
quaities of real stone and vibration & dampening charactheristics that are
up
to 30 times stronger than conventional materials. I.E. Steel & Granite.
My
main objective is to find out the most common ingredients and proportions
for
mixes that would be good for small scale industrial machine bases. Any
info
would really help. I want to play around with the stuff.
Scott: Yes! See if you can chat with THIS ol' boy: volzmechatronic@... Jan Rowland
|
Re: Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but maybe CNC
In a message dated 10/19/2002 11:54:52 AM Central Standard Time, jj5412@... writes: Working voltage also increases when caps are in series. So if you have
two 70v 40,000uf caps in series, you have 140v, 20,000uf.
JJ: Not "exactly". In order for this to be true, you must put high-value resistors in parallel with each capacitor that you then connect in series. That is, there would be then also a string of series resistors "along side" the string of capacitors, but with the "joints" of each string tied, like a ladder. This "distributes" the voltage among the capacitors, which would OTHERWISE tend to "hog" the voltage until one or more "blew". For 70 V, 40 mF, I would guess use 15K resistors. Do the math yourself!
|
Re: Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but maybe CNC
Working voltage also increases when caps are in series. So if you have
two 70v 40,000uf caps in series, you have 140v, 20,000uf.
Regards,
JJ
Be Kind, Be Careful, Be Yourself
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Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond Heckert [mailto:jnr@...]
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 10:49 PM
To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@...
Subject: Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO
content but maybe CNC
Capacitors in parallel add in value, directly as the value
of each individual cap. Capacitors in series decrease as
the reciprocal of the sum of the reciprocals of each
individual cap. Kinda the inverse of the way resistance
values change for resistors in series, or parallel.
RayHex
----------
From: Lloyd Leung <lloyd@...>
When building my own power supply, I combined two small CAPS to make a
larger one.
(Btw, I forget if that was in series or parallel, it's been a few
months)
Addresses:
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Re: Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but maybe CNC
In a message dated 10/19/2002 12:28:29 PM Mountain Daylight Time, scotr@... writes: That's right. Then the capacitance drops when the caps are in paralell,
right?
Wrong they add in parallel, the voltage rating is that of the lowest voltage capacitor. A 10,000mfd. at 40 volts and a 20,000mfd at 60 volts would have when in parallel, the following, 10,000 +20,000 = 30,000 mfd. the voltage rating would be that of the lowest = 40 volts...................... bill
|
Re: Making your own Ball nuts
For a low budget solution, how do you think mixing bronze powder with JB
Weld would work? Assuming you can buy small amounts of bronze powder.
Thanks,
JJ
Be Kind, Be Careful, Be Yourself
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Les Watts [mailto:leswatts@...]
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 3:36 PM
To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@...
Subject: Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Making your own Ball nuts
Yup Tim, something like that.
Fortunately a little goes a long way.
And hopefully cheap compared to several
ballnuts.
I did talk to the Super alloy manager some.
He said it ought to work pretty well on 2-c acme thread
forms but their experience was all with ballscrews.
At least on the acme you don't have any rolling burr
to remove so that is a plus.
It will be too tight without sufficient mold release so yes
that is an important step. Any mold release compatible with epoxies
should work but I would go for a running clearance of 0.0005"
to 0.001". Has to have room for an oil film and accommodate
the slight pitch variations in the screw. Seems to me it would
be good if you could somehow get a thicker mold release coating
on the top and bottom of the thread as those surfaces do not
contribute to thrust loading. I also wonder if you could grind
a rough longitudinal groove in a waste end part of the screw to
use as a temporary minimal tap to fine adjust the cast nut
by shaving it slightly if needed.
And I will mention the M word.... Moglice! It is very similar to
our product. Good stuff. We always try to be a little cheaper
and provide better customer engineering support. Heh... I
should say I because ITW (Philly resins) is my client now rather
than my employer. I don't make anything for selling their goop.
Just designing their encoders.
With oil or grease lube the material is good to a surface speed
equivalent to 1000 rpm on a 1" diameter screw. Beyond that
close fitting polymer bearings can get hot due to their low
thermal conductivity.
Les
Leslie Watts
L M Watts Furniture
Tiger, Georgia USA
engineering page:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Goldstein" <timg@...>
To: <CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@...>
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Making your own Ball nuts
The Philly resin is something like $65 for the small container and then
another $20 or so for the release spray if I remember correctly. If you go
with it the release spray is a must as it controls the clearance as well
as
acting as a release agent.
Tim
[Denver, CO]
Addresses:
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to reach it if you have trouble.
I consider this as a sister site to the CCED group, as many of the same members are there, for OT subjects, that are not allowed on the CCED list. NOTICE: ALL POSTINGS TO THIS GROUP BECOME PUBLIC DOMAIN BY POSTING THEM. DON'T POST IF YOU CAN NOT ACCEPT THIS.....NO EXCEPTIONS........ Post messages: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@... Subscribe: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO-subscribe@... Unsubscribe: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO-unsubscribe@... List owner: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO-owner@..., wanliker@... Moderator: jmelson@... timg@... [Moderator] URL to this group: bill, List Mom List Owner Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
|
Re: cant see parallel port from dos
deanc500 wrote: Hi, I am having trouble running my cnc control software in dos. I have
a 1Ghz Toshiba Sat Pro laptop running Win98. I can run kellycam and
master5 in windows but step rates are too slow. When I exit windows to
"dos" or win 98's version of it, the software does not see the
parallel port. Anyone seen this before?
Of course. The environment when running Win 95 and newer (and that includes the "DOS" window in Windows), "virtualizes" the parallel port. This means that your DOS program is not actually allowed to alter the registers of the parallel port chip, it is talking to a program that simulates the response of the chip. This software decides what functions of the parallel port you can, and CAN'T access from DOS emulation. Windows 95 let you do nearly anything except change the mode (SPP, Bi-Dir, EPP, ECP, etc.). Win 98 is much more restrictive. There is a program called DirectIO that is supposed to make this protection disappear, but I couldn't get it to work before the trial period expired. DOS ran in "real" mode, where the CPU had unfettered access to all the hardware. Windows, and DOS emulation under the DOS window, the cpu is in protected mode, and all hardware is off-limits, other than the chunk of memory made available to the program. Any time you attempt to touch a hardware register, an interrupt to a supervisor program is made, and it decides whether to allow the access or not. Jon
|
Re: Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but maybe CNC
SO, say two 33k resistors in series would equal to 66k resistance? And two 1000uF capacitors in parallel would equal 2000uF capacitance?? Regards, Jim --- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., "Lloyd Leung" <lloyd@l...> wrote: So:
- Resistors are in series [to gain resistance]
- Capacitors are in parallel [to gain uF]
I really should remember that, but I've only use it maybe once in 23 years [once in my life thus far]
-----Original Message-----
From: wanliker@a... [mailto:wanliker@a...]
Sent: October 18, 2002 11:16 PM
To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y...
Subject: Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but maybe CNC
In a message dated 10/18/2002 5:15:26 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
lloyd@l... writes:
Btw, I forget if that was in series or parallel, it's been a few
months Always in parallel to add values..............Often, makes a nicer
package
depending on the dimensions......
bill
|
Re: Making your own Ball nuts
Les,
There are those who might ask Jonas Salk for his formula for Polio
Vaccine.
Marv Frankel
Los Angeles
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Watts" <leswatts@...> To: <CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@...> Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Making your own Ball nuts Yes Tim I remember the discussion of what the stuff
is made of and how to make it at home.
Do I know the ingredients?
Yup.
Can I talk about it?
Nope.
So as before I must bow out of that discussion. But for folks contemplating making homemade polymer bearing compound... go for it-
and good luck!
I'll just buy the stuff ready made if I need more and concentrate
on the machine it is going in to.
Les
Leslie Watts
L M Watts Furniture
Tiger, Georgia USA
engineering page:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Goldstein" <timg@...>
To: <CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@...>
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Making your own Ball nuts
Try and then pick Super Alloy. It is the PRECISION
HIGH LUBRICITY POLYMER - BLACK 1500LFH that you will most likely want.
There were a number of people talking about playing with making some of this
at home. It is basically epoxy with a lot of graphite in it. I believe that
Moglice which is a similar product uses molybdenum disulfide as the
lubricating agent. Don't remember hearing about any results from the home experimenters.
Tim
[Denver, CO]
Addresses:
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Re: Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but maybe CNC
So:
- Resistors are in series [to gain resistance]
- Capacitors are in parallel [to gain uF]
I really should remember that, but I've only use it maybe once in 23
years [once in my life thus far]
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-----Original Message----- From: wanliker@... [mailto:wanliker@...] Sent: October 18, 2002 11:16 PM To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@... Subject: Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but maybe CNC In a message dated 10/18/2002 5:15:26 PM Mountain Daylight Time, lloyd@... writes: Btw, I forget if that was in series or parallel, it's been a few
months Always in parallel to add values..............Often, makes a nicer package depending on the dimensions...... bill
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Re: Capacitors, no CAD, EDM, DRO content but maybe CNC
Capacitors in parallel add in value, directly as the value of each individual cap. Capacitors in series decrease as the reciprocal of the sum of the reciprocals of each individual cap. Kinda the inverse of the way resistance values change for resistors in series, or parallel. RayHex ---------- From: Lloyd Leung <lloyd@...>
When building my own power supply, I combined two small CAPS to make a larger one.
(Btw, I forget if that was in series or parallel, it's been a few months)
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Re: cant see parallel port from dos - forgot to mention...
the easier way to boot up in DOS is to use the START-SHUTDOWN-RESTART MSDOS
string. This will give you the closest to Dos and then you should see the
printer output. My systen with Desknc works fine. If you want to run under
windows, make sure your Pninter setup is set to Capture DOS on the LPT1
(probably) port. If your still having trouble, please call at 214-375-9848
and I'll see if we can talk you through this.
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----- Original Message ----- From: "deanc500" <deanc@...> To: <CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@...> Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 3:31 PM Subject: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: cant see parallel port from dos - forgot to mention... Thanks, I tried holding the control key when starting the machine.
This brings me to the boot menu where I can choose safe mode, dos
prompt only, etc. I bypass all windows drivers here and still no
parallel port. The dos sofware runs normally, but no pulses at the
port. Very strange. The help line guy at Toshiba suggested I do a
google search : )so no help there.
--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., "torsten98001" <torsten@g...> wrote:
Here is something you may want to try.
Look for a File named MSDOS.SYS on the root
of your bootdrive it is a hidden file so you have
to enable show hidden files in explorer.
Change the properties of this file by removing the
readonly checkmark.
Then edit the file in notepad, look for a line that
reads BootGUI=1 , change this to BootGUI=0 then save
the file.
Now change all attributes back to the way they where before.
The result will be when you reboot the computer it will
stop at the >C:\ prompt without loading Windows.
This allows you to run your programs in a true dos environment.
when your done just enter win to load windows as usual.
Good Luck.
--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., "j.guenther" <j.guenther@v...> wrote:
can you print from dos? Might be a configuration or driver problem
John Guenther
'Ye Olde Pen Maker'
Sterling, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: deanc500 [mailto:deanc@v...]
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 16:44 PM
To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y...
Subject: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: cant see parallel port from dos - forgot
to mention...
--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., "deanc500" <deanc@v...> wrote:
Hi, I am having trouble running my cnc control software in dos.
I have
a 1Ghz Toshiba Sat Pro laptop running Win98. I can run kellycam
and
master5 in windows but step rates are too slow. When I exit
windows to
"dos" or win 98's version of it, the software does not see the
parallel port.
Anyone seen this before? The software I am trying in dos is deskncdos and cncpro. Neither
can
see the parallel port. Tried setting the port to standard bi
directional in the bios with no effect.
Thanks
Dean
Addresses:
FAQ:
FILES:
OFF Topic POSTS: General Machining
If you wish to post on unlimited OT subjects goto:
aol://5863:126/rec.crafts.metalworking or go thru Google.com to
reach it if you have trouble.
I consider this
as a sister site to the CCED group, as many of the same members
are there, for OT subjects, that are not allowed on the CCED list.
NOTICE: ALL POSTINGS TO THIS GROUP BECOME PUBLIC DOMAIN BY
POSTING THEM. DON'T POST IF YOU CAN NOT ACCEPT THIS.....NO
EXCEPTIONS........
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List Mom
List Owner
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
Addresses:
FAQ:
FILES:
OFF Topic POSTS: General Machining
If you wish to post on unlimited OT subjects goto: aol://5863:126/rec.crafts.metalworking or go thru Google.com to reach it if you have trouble.
I consider this as a
sister site to the CCED group, as many of the same members are there, for OT subjects, that are not allowed on the CCED list.
NOTICE: ALL POSTINGS TO THIS GROUP BECOME PUBLIC DOMAIN BY POSTING THEM.
DON'T POST IF YOU CAN NOT ACCEPT THIS.....NO EXCEPTIONS........
Post messages: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@...
Subscribe: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO-subscribe@...
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Re: Cable [Belden Infinity]
Thankyou, Randy
RichD
Randy Gordon-Gilmore wrote:
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At 08:24 PM 10/18/2002 -0400, RichD wrote:
Can someone tell me the jacket diameter of the 4 conductor #18 and
4 conductor #20 cable, please? Catalog numbers are .292" for the 4x18 and .268" for the 4x20. The 4x20
checks out with the piece I have.
Best regards,
Randy
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Re: Cable [Belden Infinity]
At 08:24 PM 10/18/2002 -0400, RichD wrote: Can someone tell me the jacket diameter of the 4 conductor #18 and
4 conductor #20 cable, please? Catalog numbers are .292" for the 4x18 and .268" for the 4x20. The 4x20 checks out with the piece I have. Best regards, Randy Randy Gordon-Gilmore ,----.___________ ______________ _________________ ProtoTrains // = = === == || == == == = || == == == = == =| Rio Vista, CA, USA /-O==O------------o==o------------o==o-----------o==o-' zephyrus@...
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