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According to the information provided by Don Scott, 2408 was assigned to
Cote St Luc in February of 1952

Michael Salfi
Kitchener, Ontario

email: msalfi@...

We are the navvies who work upon the railway,
Swinging our hammers in the bright glazing sun,
Laying down track and building the bridges,
Bending our backs till the railroad is done.

From "The Canadian Railroad Trilogy", by Gordon Lightfoot

--- In C-P-R@..., "Brian Kimmons" <brian.kimmons@g...> wrote:

Does CP have a 1-800 number for equipment tracing? (This has

probably been asked for and/or provided previously but not since I've
been on the list).

Brian Kimmons ... in the "short lines only" National Capital Region.

Brian,

as far as I know CP does not have a 1-800 number to phone, but they
do have equipment tracing on their website.

it is www.cpr.ca

Does CP have a 1-800 number for equipment tracing? (This has probably been asked for and/or provided previously but not since I've been on the list).

Brian Kimmons ... in the "short lines only" National Capital Region.

The other day I happened to be passing by the Vaughan IM yard and saw six
very disheveled looking units...

The first on was actually working the yard: a bright yellow EMD switcher
(1200?), with no numbers or lettering. Sitting in the yard, visible from
Major Mac Drive were two other SW's - one pale yellow, numbered 72; the
other with a yellow cab and grey hood, numbered 1254. In addition, three
unrebuilt GP 9s(?) were there too:

1) red (not CP red...), not numbered, with lettering on a body mounted
placard (too far to read)
2) two-tone white and grey, with a thin yellow stripe, no numbers, but
lettered something "coal"
3) what looked like a very faded Milwaukee Road paint scheme, again
with no numbers or lettering

All the units were "running", though I only saw the one actually move and do
some work.

Anybody have an idea as to what gives ? Is CP that desperate for power?

As an aside, can anyone tell me the best times on a Saturday to be at the
yard for some action?

Thanks,


PC

To W.E.Miller

Mr Miller

Omer Lavallee's wonderful book "Canadian Pacific Steam Locomotives"
Published by Railfare Enterprises Ltd (1985) contains the answers to both
your questions

Happy railroading
John

Hi Bill & CPR List.

Living in the Maritimes until 1969, and all my records of CP steam; 4-6-2
G-3 2408 is news to me. However this could be right. Locomotive 2408 was
assigned to freight in and out of Cote St. Luc(Montreal) in black & gold)
but one never knows if 2408 info ran East through Maine-McAdam, and Saint
John. All the G-3 2400's that ran into that territory being assigned to
passenger trains 39, 40, 41 and 42 on Montreal service. The 2400's that I
followed very closely back in the early 1940's-1950's were all in tuscan
red-grey-black gold scheme in the mid-1940's 1950's: 2402, 2453, 2455, 2457,
2459, 2461, 2467-besides theri sisters 2394, 2395, 2396, 2397. Locomotive
2392 did a stint on Montreal trains, and the Boston-Saint John Gull on the
Vanceboro, Maine-Saint John CP sector.

Under the weather today, not feeling too good.

Trust I have answered all on the list-their question on 2408. However,
anything was possible. But tried to keep track in those days of all power on
CP in and out of New Brunswick including the main-line.
Cheers
Don Scott-Coquitlam, B.C.


W E Miller wrote:

At Smiths Falls, Ont this early morning of March 21st, 2000

#481-21 05:01am Departure (CP 6048, 5994, 5866) (Westbound - Chalk
River Sub.)
Local 05:10am Arrival (CP8250)
#512-18 05:29am Departure (5787,5611, STLH5560, 5542) (Eastbound)
#928-20 05:52am Departure (5629, 5613) (Eastbound)
#471-21 07:13am Departure (6035, 6014, 5952) (Westbound - Chalk River
Sub.)
#923-21 08:17am Departure (CP5607, 8235, STLH 5619) (Westbound -
Belleville Sub.)

Note : #512 returned to is regular route....

(2) grains loads are expected in Smith Falls, Ont. Today, one train
(#306-17) left Toronto this morning at 07:40am enroute to Quebec city
with CP 8549, 9012, 5805. The other train (#310-17) arrived in Toronto,
Ont. At 07:19 this morning enroute to Quebec city with CP 8553 & 8574

Luc Lanthier
Gatineau, Qc.

What steam locomotives were assigned for service on the Goderich Sub
(Ontario) and where were they assigned to? Both Guelph and Goderich
would have had a yard switcher as well as road locomotives.


William E. Miller
________________________________________________________
&#92; Electric Lines in Southern Ontario
&#92;
________&#92;____________________________________________
/____G R A N D_____R_I_V_E_R_____R_A_I_L_W_A_Y_____&#92;
|[_] [_][_][_][_][_] [][][] [_]|
|| | 626 | | 626 | ||
o------------------------------======--------------o
/|-|(o)=x=(o) xxxxxx 0|___||___||-| (o)=x=(o)|-|&#92;
========================================================
'In honour of the last interurban car built in Canada'

A friend has a very large picture of CPR steam locomotive 2408 taken, he
believes, somewhere in New Brunswick. Would anyone happen to have a
list of where this engine was assigned during its lifetime?


William E. Miller
________________________________________________________
&#92; Electric Lines in Southern Ontario
&#92;
________&#92;____________________________________________
/____G R A N D_____R_I_V_E_R_____R_A_I_L_W_A_Y_____&#92;
|[_] [_][_][_][_][_] [][][] [_]|
|| | 626 | | 626 | ||
o------------------------------======--------------o
/|-|(o)=x=(o) xxxxxx 0|___||___||-| (o)=x=(o)|-|&#92;
========================================================
'In honour of the last interurban car built in Canada'

Hello all:

I think this story gains more credibility if it is shown to have
occurred over the whole course of the First World War. From the first
reports, it sounded as though this number of men was transported within
about a two year time frame. There is no way you can tell me that many
men were transported in such a short time frame with nobody any the
wiser. It still is curious that a large train loaded with Chinese faces
peering out, didn't case comment. As I said before, if a good cover
story accompanied the train, AND if security precautions were not
obvious - then maybe Doug is truly on to something here.

I have trouble seeing large numbers of Chinese being secreted back home
in 1919, given the anxiety of the general population to move soldiers
back home. If large numbers were not moved until after 1920, that is
another matter and such trains would have been much easier to camoflage,
so to speak. By 1923, I'll bet that a carefully set up train wouldn't
have rated a second glance, just so long as nobody got off. Again, a
good cover story would do the trick. I would now have to say that there
may be a very good chance that there are still folks around that saw
these trains and had no clue of what they were looking at.

Hope somebody in Ottawa can do some leg work on this one!!

Joe Smuin

Doug Rhodes wrote:

Continued Discussion on CPR Steam-Feedwater Heaters & Tenders-Part #2

Going Back to older steam:
Light 4-6-2's of the G-1 and G-2 class of Pacific Type locomotives of
the 1906 Vintage power-that was considered as the ultimate and large
power then. The railway had a considerable of renumbering over the
earlier years of its infancy.

The light 4-6-2,s of the G-1 2200's G-2's of the 2500 and 2600 series
during their life had many cosmetic and mechanical changes during years
of upgrading, rebuilding, including new boilers, cylinders, new
vestibuled cabs(all weather cabs).

Only a small number of G-1 2200's and G-2 2500's reamined with open
cabs especially the 2200 series; the odd one like 2218, G-2's of the
2500 seeries; 2518, 2583, 2584, 2596, 2597. The G-2 2600's were all
complete with vestibuled cabs so all my records show, and in CP records.
G-1 2218 at one time was assigned to the Montreal-Boston service in pool
with Boston & Maine steam. Locomotive 2207 was fully rebuilt &
modernized at one time also on the Montreal Boston service.

During 1927, CPR was in the midst of a busy rebulding and modernization
program of its older power, adding feedwater heaters, to the Classes
above, Vestibuled cabs, larger and more modern tenders with higher coal
and water capacity.

CPR's Western power, Winnipeg West 2500 and 2600 series of light 4-6-2's
held down many of CP's passenger trains. The Western Canada G-2's if
one observes any photographs can compare them with the Eastern Canada
power-wider running board or walkways from the front of locomotive to
cab.

Besides the 2500 and 2600's on Western lines the heavy 4-6-2's of the
2300's like 2311, 2312, 2317, 2340 series, the G-4 heavy 4-6-2 2700's
were holding down heavy Trans-continental passenger trains, as well
after the 1929-1930 period with new 4-6-4 "Hudson's" of the 2800 to 2819
series(non streamlined)operating from Eastern Canada as far as Calgary.

CPR's 2-10-2 Santa Fe Type 5800's worked Calgary-Field-Revelstoke, B.C.,
some assigned to freight others on passenger, as well as heavy 4-6-2's
of 2300 and 2700 series.

Going back to the heavy 4-6-2's of the G-4 Class 2700's Winnipeg West at
that time in the 1930's on he main-line as far as Calgary, and part of
the "Great West Express" in and out of Winnipeg in and around the
Sutherland, Saskatchewan area. No record of these locomotives running
West to Edmonton.

CPR were adding more heavier 2-8-2 "Mikado's" to its freight services
across the country of the P-2's 5300's up to 5399 and continued into
5400 to 5404. A few minor changes in design were made as the years
progressed. Tractive effort on earlier 5300's 56,000 lbs., and newer
power 57,500lbs., plus an increase in boiler pressure.

During the days of C.H. Temple, CP's Chief of Motive Power and Rolling
Stock from 1921 to 1928, completed plans in 1926 for a 4-8-4 to develope
a tractive effort of 68,000 lbs; the locomotive design would have 70
inch drivers, this design was later discarded; then a second 4-8-4
design, and afterward the design in 1927 for 4-8-4's 3100 and 3101, the
only two that went into service in 1928. "Temples" plns was a fleet of
4-8-4,s like 3100 and 3101.

In 1926 CP took delivery o 24 new heavy 4-6-2 'Pacific's" of the 2300
class G3-d's and the first locomotives to be constrcted hving their
boilers made of nickel & steel. It is said a North American first. These
24 locomotives in 1926 were the "First locomotives delivered with
Feedwater heaters". From there on CPR the Feedwater heater took off on
all future orders for steam locomotives, and beginning in 1927 older
power like 2-8-2's of the 5100 series, light 4-6-2's of 2200, 2500,
2600,s, all earlier heavy 4-6-2's of 2300 and 2700 series.

In the 1929 period, after H.B. Bowen took over as Chief of Motive Power
& rolling stock new 2-10-4 "Selkirks" 5900 to 5919 arrived from Montreal
Locomotive Works and oil-fired were assigned to freight and passenger
service between Calgary-Field-Revelstoke, B.C. The were classified as
T1-a's and equipped with boosters developed 91,000 lbs. tractive effort.

"Bowen" then designed a Multi-pressured 2-10-4 "Selkirk" 8000 and
experimental locomotive built by Angus Shops in Montreal, an oil-burner
and in 1931 was dubbed "The World's largest Locomotive" This locomotive
was assigned to Calgary-Field-Revelstoke, B.C. service. Locomotive 8000
spent more time in the roundhouse than out on the road, and was retired
and eventually scrapped. 8000's tender went to 2-10-2 5812 replacing its
8-wheel tender.

Speaking of the 2700 G-5 Heavy 4-6-2's on the Prairies equipped with new
12-wheel higher capacity tenders were:
2702, 2710, 2711, 2712, 2713, 2714, 2715,2716. All the others worked
Calgary west at that time and from Revelstoke to Vancouver-engines 2700,
2701, 2702, 2703, 2704, 2705, 2706, 2707, 2709, 2717-all with 8-wheel
tenders and oil-fired.

Next-CPR's steam modernization programme-streamlined
steam-semi-streamlined power-the tuscan red -grey-black-gold paint
scheme. Plus Feedwater Heater-Tender Information.

Don Scott-Coquitlam, B.C.
"The Hey Days of Canadian Pacific's "White Empresses-Duchess Liners-Mont
Liners & Canadian Australian Line".

Possible Duplicate-Internet Problems.

Hello all

Many people have become intrigued by the "story" of the secret Chinese
trains on the CPR in World War 1 and little bits of info are now coming
in. This post is not all specifically CPR-related, but it DOES tilt the
tables a bit toward the believable. More news as I receive it!

Were there Chinese labourers at the western front?

We now have several independent sources confirming this. A book about
China written in 1919 refers to the workers and contains a photo of
labor battalions readied for departure from Tsingtao, one of the ports
identified in the original Beaver article about the CPR. According to
this book, as of October 1918, there were 175,000 Chinese labourers at
the Western Front, of which 125,000 were assigned to the British
forces. This gives credence to the Beaver article's claim that on
Armistice Day, there were over 107,000 Chinese labourers with the
British at the front.

A source from the Imperial War Museum in London, England confirms that
there were still significant numbers of Chinese labourers at the front
in 1922, having been kept behind to "clear the Western Front of the
debris of war". The Beaver article indicated that authorization to
begin repatriation of the Chinese came in September 1919. Further to
Joe Smuin's thoughtful post, this gives a hint to how the Chinese might
be brought home without creating a stir - it was done over a period of
4 to 5 years. (A record in the National Archives of Canada suggests the
repatriation movement continued in 1923.)

Were Chinese labour battalions moved through Canada?

Seven files (with file numbers and finding aids) at the National
Archives of Canada have been found referring to "Special Cases of
Transportation - Chinese Coolies, Overseas", "Special Cases of
Transportation - Transportation of Chinese Coolies through Canada", and
"Special Cases of Transportation - Return of Chinese Coolies from
Overseas". The dates of the files cover the perod 1917 -1923. Ottawa is
a long hike from Victoria, where I live - if any list member has the
interest and access to the Archives I can provide the exact file
references for further research.

Do we have a picture of one of the CPR secret trains?

Some of the real CPR steam mavens are now on this one - stay tuned! Now
that we know the trains may have run as late as 1923, it makes it a
good deal more believable that a G3 or G4 Pacific may have been
assigned to such a train. More steam expertise than I have is needed to
narrow down the possibility - I'll report back as I find out more from
the "experts".

Thanks again to everyone for all their help on this - using the Web we
can find out in days or weeks what it might have taken years to dig up
- and apparently it took over 75 years so far!

Regards
Doug
Victoria, BC

Hi Mike:

I think both systems applied depending on the locale and frequency of the
runs. On the CP between Fort William (Thunder Bay) and Winnipeg, then
known as the Kenora Division, during the final years of mixed train
operation (~late 50's to mid 60's) when the service was reduced to one
train each way per week, these trains were crewed from the freight pool.
Thus, the van assigned to pertinent crew was carried behind the combine.

FWIW one combine was assigned to this operation, starting out in Kenora
it travelled west to Winnpeg on Monday (train no. 505), east back to
Kenora on Tuesdays (train no. 506), east to Ignace on Wednesday (train no
508), east to Fort William on Thursday (train no. 510), then west again
on Friday back to Ignace (train no 509) and finally back west to Kenora
on Saturday (train no. 507).

Bill Bishop
Thunder Bay, On



Mike Salfi wrote:

A Number Of Queries A Few Days Ago Regarding Feedwater Heaters-12-Wheel
Tenders on CPR Steam Locomotives.

"Oh Those Glory Days"-Part #1

Going back to 1919, CPR commenced building the first of ther new Heavy
4-6-2's of the G-3 2300's and G-4 2700's for passenger service, a
locomotive design that would continue throu to the last years of Heavy
4-6-2 Pacific's the semi-streamlined version of the 2351 to 2472 with
the last 10 delivered in 1948.

CP built in 1914 two 4-8-2's 2900-2901, the only two ever to blaze the
mainlines on the railway in Canada; Quebec-Ontairo and later to the
Maritimes handling passenger trains #39, #40, #41 and #42 between McAdam
and Saint John, New Bruunswick until 1944-1945.

In later years the two 4-8-2's were known as stretched heavy 4-6-2
Pacific's. CP"s Soo Line had almost 25 of the 4-8-2 wheel-arrangement in
the 4000 number series, both mainly in passenger service as wwll as
freight.

The first of the 4-6-2 2300's were constructed in Montreal's Angus Shops
as well as the 2700 sisters. The 2300's had 75 Inch driving wheels, but
the 2700's 70 Inch drivers. All the 2700's went to Western Canada, while
the earlier 2300's remained in the East.

CPR brought out the new 2-8-2 "Mikados" in 1912 then in the 5000 number
series, in later years renumbered into the 5100 series.

CP's new heavy 4-6-2's as well as tht early 5000 series, some 2-8-0.s
then numbered in the 3800 and 3900 series, 4-8-1's 2900-2901 had the CPR
designed Vestibuled Cab(all weather cab)-with this cab the first railway
in North America. Not forgetting CP's 2-10-0's of the 5756 to 5790
series, 2-10-2's of the 5800 series. -5800's built 1919. by CP.

By 1927 CPR was into a large rebuilding and upgrading programme,
modernization of motive power. By 1928-1929 all of CPR's G-3 Class 2300
to 2350 had their tenders replaced from 8-wheel tenders to higher
capacity 12-wheel tenders(21 tons of coal, 12,000 Imp. gallon water
capacity, as well receiving the new feedwater heaters. A few prior to
the dates had already received feedwater heaters-but the larger tenders
added at a later date, Locomotive 2324 , built 1923 had its 12-wheel
tender in photos taken in 1932.

The G-4 class heavy 4-6-2's were all Western Canada assigned
locomotives-with a number assigned between Revelstoke, B.C. and
Vancouver that had 8-wheel tenders-namely 2700, 2701, 2702, 2703, 2704,
2705, 2706, 2707, 2709, 2717, later converted to oil-fired. Ohter G-4'
assigned to lines Winnipeg West to Calgary all were re-equipped with the
12-wheel tender and mostly were all coal-fired. Some of the 2700's could
be found on the Winnipeg-northern route to Edmonton, Alberta round
Sutherland, Sask. assigned to passenger trains.

By 1927 through 1928 CP had taken many of its light 4-6-2,s of the G-1's
G-2's in for rebuilding-many with boilder rebuilding, new cylinders,
re-equipped with CP's Vestibule Cab-(All weather cab) and most receiving
feedwater heaters.

In 1928 CPR introduced its two new K-1a 4-8-4's 3100 and 3101 built by
its Montreal Angus Shops for the heavy overnight Montreal-Toronto
passenger service-part of the Chicago service of The "Chicago Express"
and the "Overseas Express".
This was just prior to H.B. Bowen taking over(after moving up the
ranks)as Chief of Motive Power & Rolling Stock for CPR.
Naturally engines 3100-3101 had the 12-wheel tender.

When H.B. Bowen took over head of Motive Power, 4-8-4's was not the
answer for future new locomotive designs. He designed the 4-6-4 "Hudson
Type" passenger locomotive for heavy-fast passenger service. IN 1929 the
first of the 4-6-4's rooled out of Montreal Locomotive Works, the H1-a
Class 2800 to 2809, then came the H1-b Class 2810 to 2819. Bowen wantede
a locomotive of this class to develope 46.000 lbs. of tractive effort,
two of the H1-b's 2811 and 2813 came booster equipped developing another
12,000 lbs. tractive effort giving thos two sister engines 57,500 lbs.
tractive effort. These two sisters were used on the Montreal-Toronto
overnight passenger service on trains #21 and #22 when 4-8-4'S 3100
-3101 were not available. Locomotives 2800 to 2819 broke all records for
the railway in long-distance service, reliability, performance,
efficiency, and economy.

By that era the other Canadian railway brough out the first of its 4-8-4
6100 series "Northerns". ; whcih were chosen due to axel laoding
restrictions on former Grand Trunk, Canadian Government Railway(part nee
Intercolonial Railway) into the Maritimes from Montreal east to Halifax,
including lighter rail and bridge restrictions(weight over bridges) The
other railway selected an eight-wheel coupled locomotive for heavy
passenger and freight service. This applied to the other rilroad's Grand
Trunk Western..

These restrictions did not apply to Canadian pacific; so the selection
of the shorter wheel base with 4-6-4 "Hudsons" over 45,000lbs tractive
effort and 12,000lbs extra tractive effort with boosters., a total
tractive effort of 57,500 lbs. The other railroad's 4-8-4's on Canadian
lines had a tractive effort of 56,800 lbs. A numbver of their 4-8-4's
were booster equipped. CPR's 4-8-4's 3100 and 3101 were about 61,000
lbs. tractive effort plus with their boosters another 12,000 lbs. for a
total of 73,000 lbs tractive effort.

CPR's earlier 2-8-2's 5000 series that came out in 1912 and later in
years being renumbered into the 5100 series, 95% of these locomotives
received the feed water heaters,; two locomotives of the 5100 P-1 class
received the "Coffin Feedwater heater including the 5164, which I
spooted at Cote St. Luc Yard in Montreal around 1955-1956. Two
locomotives of the 5100 series that come to my mind are 5190 and 5191.
Locomotive 5190 never received the feedwater heater and well as 5191.
Locomotive 5190 was assgined to New Brunswick & State of Maine for
sometime. 5190 looked very distintive with her "Half-Moon" headlight
perched on top of the smoke box just ahead of its stack. 5190 usually
held down freights in th 1940's and early 1950's between McAdam-Saint
John. On one of my trips to Saint John in the late 1940's observed this
locomotive hauling in the Boston-Saint John "Gull" on CP's Vanceboro,
Maine-Saint John, N.B. section of the run. Locomotive 5191 with the same
style headlight in the late 1930's had a picture taken at Bay Shore
Roundhouse, West St. John, N.B. with its drivers in "White paint scheme"
and gold stripe-ing on its tender in passenger service. Speaking of
2-8-2 5190, in the 1940-1941 eara CPR was still modernizing its P1 Class
2-8-2's of the 5100 series; and 5190 received a new modern tender-higher
capacity, 18 ton coal capacity, 10,000Imp Gals. water capacity.

Superheaters:
CPR was the first railroad in the Western Hemisphere to develope the
Superheater for its steam locomotives-first CPR locomotive to have it
applied was 4-6-0 548 in 1891.

Heavier 2-8-2,s of the 5300 series eventually received feedwater
heaters.
To Be Continued.

Don Scott-Coquitlam, B.C.
Canadian Pacific-Spanning The World Since The 1880'

Great information received on this topic. In talking with a friend in
Waterloo, it was also suggested that a caboose would be used if there were
an overnight lay over whereas if it were a return trip on the same day a
caboose would most likely not be used. The caboose, in the case of an over
night lay over would provide accomodation for the crew.

Michael Salfi
Kitchener, Ontario

email: msalfi@...

We are the navvies who work upon the railway,
Swinging our hammers in the bright glazing sun,
Laying down track and building the bridges,
Bending our backs till the railroad is done.

From "The Canadian Railroad Trilogy", by Gordon Lightfoot

Tender#
1626 SOO GP40's 2008 and 2046 (both MILW "bandits")
1624 CP SD40-2 5685 (carbody rebuilt from wreck)
1627 SOO SD39 6241
1625 CP SD40 751 and SOO SD40 756

All closing 2000-04-07.






Bill

CP 6411, 5528, 5530, 5548 and 5556 will go to DM & E on March 31, 2000.

A lot of SD40's are leaving CP roster lately.......

STLH got the OK from CP to overhaul several 4-axle units at Ogden Shop and
(3) of the ugly (but unique) 4600's will get done this year. CP 4657 may be
the first one........

Yes, it's in the shop already.

Also in are 3024 and 3111.



Bill

STLH got the OK from CP to overhaul several 4-axle units at Ogden Shop and
(3) of the ugly (but unique) 4600's will get done this year. CP 4657 may be
the first one........-

Luc Lanthier
Gatineau, Qc.