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Secret Chinese trains part 3
Doug Rhodes
Hello all
Many thanks to all those who have contributed to this discussion! I'll try to address some of the notes that came in: Bill Baird said that it seemed unlikely these trains could have run through his area, as with all the "talk" that railroaders exchange about anything that is "different" it seems impossible that we would not have heard of it before. That's pretty much what people I contacted locally said - so much gets passed down in discussions on the job or in other "local" venues, how could this have stayed a secret all these years? People familiar with the mainline and the KVR in BC had similar comments to Bill's - but the records at National Defense and the National Archives are way too specific to just write this story off as I was tempted to do. Several folks entered into a lively discussion about the train photo included in the article. Impeccable logic, and much more erudite regarding steam than I am! But perhaps not quite correct ... you were all relying on my observations after all, and I am not a steam maven. That feedwater heater is pretty hard to miss, but I could not actually see all the wheels under the tender. The tender is a long one, and I had seen these referred to in "Steam in Canada" as 6-wheel long haul tenders. However a more detailed troll through that book shows that many steam engines had long tenders with 4 wheel trucks. Several list members also pointed this out. So thanks to those who reasoned from their greater knowledge of 12 wheel tenders that the photo must have been more modern - perfect logic but maybe I led you a little astray there through my own ignorance. However, I'm still pretty suspicious about that photo. As Ray Matthews pointed out, our friends at the Archives can be a little "loose" with technical data on photos, and magazines often just print something that "looks right" without much background research. Nonetheless, my look at "Steam in Canada" shows some heavier 4-6-2 locos with feedwater heaters that were put in service in 1919 and the years following. The trains returning the Chinese to the Pacific coast were supposed to have run in late 1919. Also the consist in the photo looks right (as far as one can tell) for the descriptions in the article. A big clue came when Don Scott in one of his notes indicated that CP pioneered the use of feedwater heaters about 1927-1928. So, it may have seemed reasonable to the magazine to use this photo, but with Don's expert knowledge, it looks like we may have caught them out! I've been able to confirm from a couple of independent sources that there WERE large numbers of Chinese labourers at the western front in World War 1. However, how they got there (and home again) is still a very interesting puzzle! Thanks to all who have helped with this mystery. I have a couple more ideas to run down bits of the story. I'll keep the list posted, and if any one else can add some more thoughts or references, please do! Doug Victoria, BC |
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Re: Putting a sock in it
Wind dir. could be critical if there was a chemical spill, etc ...
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-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Base [mailto:cbase@...] Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 9:15 AM To: C-P-R@... Subject: Re: [C-P-R] Putting a sock in it From: Christian Base <cbase@...> --- Paul Cordingley <crs1026@...> wrote: From: "Paul Cordingley" <crs1026@...>at both Belleville (CN) and Smiths Falls (CP), there was awell-maintained wind sock on a tower on the property..any railroad employees out there who can tell us why this is of use tothem? I would've thought the wind factor was rather obvious to anyone on theground? Secret Aerotrain maybe?!?! More seriously, what about as a precaution if an Air Ambulamce is required? CB ===== ________________________________________________________________________ Christian Base Richmond Hill ON Canada MP 18.7, CN Bala Sub Owner: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PERFORM CPR ON YOUR APR! Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ C-P-R "Canadian Pacific Railway" |
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Secret CPR "Chinese" Trains
Ray and Myrna Matthews
No doubt these trains did operate across Canada during World War I, but
the description you give of the photo of one of these trains simply does not compute. If the loco. visible in the photo is indeed a CPR heavy Pacific with Elesco Feed Water Heater and 12 wheeled tender, then the photo was taken many years after WW I ended and would have had nothing to do with this particular event. This is just another example of a photo being supplied from the archives by someone who knows nothing about the subject, or it is captioned incorrectly. Unfortunately, the author receiving such material often also has only limited knowledge of these technical matters. The worst part is readers tend to accept such information as being correct simply because it originated from a national archive. Ray Matthews |
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Further Questions On CPR Steam
Donald Scott
Dear CPR List Members:
Further the queries on CPR steam, tied up for two days with the "Western Rails Show" later today and Sunday, in Burnaby(I could mention something about that City, but I won't). Will likely get back to a full discussion re 12-wheel tenders, and feed-water heaters on CP-"Elesco" and "Worthington"-"Coffin Feedwater Heater". If I'm not mistaken-CP was the "Pioneer" using feedwater heaters being used starting about 1927-1928. I forgot about 4-8-4,s 3100 and 3101 built by Angus Shops in Montreal 1928 both with 12-wheel tenders, and with the feedwater heater. When 3100 and 3101 were replaced by diesels on trains #21 and #22 between Montreal & Toronto "Chicago Express" "Overseas Express" after a stint in 1954 on Montreal-Saint John passenger trains #39, #40, #41 and #42-Montreal-Megantic, Quebec only. They were sent West and converted to oil fired, prior to that around 1953 they lost their smoke-deflectors, and their glamorous tuscan red-black-gold paint scheme-"Black & Gold" in the West. They were given tenders from retired 2-10-4 "Selkirks" of the T1-a Class(the 5900 to 5919) series which evidentally came from retired power. In the 1950's some of CP's non-streamlined heavy 4-6-2's of the 2300 to 2350 series; a few lost their 12-wheel thenders, and given 8-wheel tenders, likely from the semi-streamlined 2351 to 2399 series or 2400 to 2472 series. Steamtown operating out of Scranton, Penn., has ex CP heavy 4-6-2 2317, and all of the pictures from time to time you see in magazines-you will note it has'nt the 12-wheel tender, instead with the 8-wheel tender. With the exception of streamlined 2-10-4's T1-b's 5920 to 5929, T1-c's 5930 to 5935, and 4-6-4 "Royal Hudson's" 2860 to 2864 they had the "Buckeye Truck" whereas all othe 12-wheel tenders on CP had the "Commonwealth Truck". 4-6-4's 2860 to 2864's tenders at the top had a rounded "Apron", close to the "Royal Tour" of 1939 4-6-4 2850. The G-5 light modern 4-6-2's of the 1200 series starting with 1231 through to 1301 built 1945 through to 1948 all had th streamlined rounded "Apron" also on their tenders. Will get Back to the discussion. Don Scott-Coquitlam, B.C. "Waiting for CPR's 4-6-4 "Hudson" 2816 To Begin Her Trials" |
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Re: Putting a sock in it
Christian Base
--- Paul Cordingley <crs1026@...> wrote:
From: "Paul Cordingley" <crs1026@...> Secret Aerotrain maybe?!?! More seriously, what about as a precaution if an Air Ambulamce is required? CB ===== ________________________________________________________________________ Christian Base Richmond Hill ON Canada MP 18.7, CN Bala Sub Owner: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. |
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Re: 12 wheel tenders was RE: Fw: Secret CPR "Chinese" trains
James E.Mack
With 6 wheel tenters coming in the 1950s on the 4-6-2s and if it is a 4-6-4 H1a or b
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it would be late 1920s so the photo of this train could not have been World War one. Mike Salfi wrote: From: "Mike Salfi" <msalfi@...> |
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When 12-Wheel Tenders Came In On CPR
Donald Scott
Hello List Members:
I have been reading discussions on CPR steam, questions just when 12-wheel tenders came on line. When I get the chance will try and answer the question. To be short on this duscussion-these tenders replaced the 8-wheel tenders on the heavy G-3 Class 4-6-2's of the 2300 to 2350 series commencing in and around 1928. Anumber of the G-4 heavy 4-6-2's of the 2700 series, such as 2708, 2710,2711, 2712, 2713, 2714, 2715, 2716. All these pretty well on th Prairies.The new 4-6-4 "Hudson"s 2800 to 2819 commenned comin new to CP in 1928 and onward. The T1-a's all 12-wheel tenders-1929-1930 of the "Selkirks" 5900 to 5919. Experimental Hi-Pressured 2-10-4 8000. The new to be called "Royal Hudsons" 2820 to 2864 the same. Its too long of a story, will try and get back. In Omer Lavallee's Great Book on Canadian Pacific steam-non of the pictures o the semi-streamlined 2351 to 2399 heavy 4-6-2's all show 8-wheel tenders the same as the continuation of the semi-streamlined G-3's 2400 to 2472. ut some of these semi-streamlined 2300's on the prairies received the 12-wheel tender, as well as about 10 of them re-equipped with 12-wheel tenders on Montreal-Saint John, N.B. passenger service-east of Montreal especially through Maine-a problem with coaling stops. Yes, even the P-2 5300's a few had them, in later years towards the last years of steam. "Still Love Steam"-Fortunate To Brought Up In The Great CP Steam Days" Don Scott-Coquitlam, B.C. |
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Re: Putting a sock in it
Joe Smuin
Paul:
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Wind socks are now becoming common because of the need to determine wind direction in case of a hazardous commodity spill. If it is necessary to evacuate a yard in a hurry, you don't want a crew standing around holding wet fingers in the air trying to determine which way not to run. You haven't lived until you've been downwind of a leaking chlorine car or a gondola car full of burning sulphur. In a panic, especially at 3.40 a.m., people won't always be able to easily determine wind direction. Also, emergency response authorities arriving at a situation need to know and be able to monitor the wind direction. Joe Smuin Carman Co-chairman NV Terminal OH&S Committee BC Rail North Vancouver Paul Cordingley wrote:
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Re: canada southern
Chris Jajko
--- In C-P-R@..., ddavies@c... wrote:
Any more news of the Canada Southern sale yet?? It would not be inBesides the existing track would need a lot of work. Sadly it looks likeHey there, I was just reading some messages from a week or so ago and your message about the CASO caught my eye. It is a real shame that the CASO probably will be ripped up, as it is a very beatiful subdivision. Nice curves not really any grades, just perfect! This past november I travelled to Waterford to photgoraph the railway reamins (TH&B, CASO, LE&N), it is depressing! I would like nothing more then to see trains roll through Waterford again. It would be great. What a town rich in railway history. anyways thanks, Chris |
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12 wheel tenders was RE: Fw: Secret CPR "Chinese" trains
Mike Salfi
According to Don Scott's posts on the CPR in the 1950's:
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??? In the late 1940's and early 1950's, semi-streamlined heavy 4-6-2's were re-equipped with 12 wheel tender trucks, to enable higher capacity for coal (21 tons) and water (12,000 gallons). This change was only applied to passenger power assigned from Montreal east through the State of Maine to McAdam, N.B. and Saint John, N.B. on passenger trains #39, #40, #41 and #42; the last two being "Atlantic Limited" service. ??? The locomotives were *2394, *2395, *2396, *2397, *2402, *2453, *2455, *2457, *2459 and *2467. Locomotive *2461 retained its original 8 wheel tender (with a capacity of 18 tons of coal, water capacity 10,000 gallons like other semi-streamlined 2300 and 2400 series on Eastern Lines. A number of Western lines semi-streamlined 4-6-2's of the 2300 series also received 12 wheel tenders and were mostly converted to being oil fired. Michael Salfi Kitchener, Ontario email: msalfi@... We are the navvies who work upon the railway, Swinging our hammers in the bright glazing sun, Laying down track and building the bridges, Bending our backs till the railroad is done. From "The Canadian Railroad Trilogy", by Gordon Lightfoot -----Original Message-----
From: James E.Mack [mailto:lvrr@...] Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 11:28 PM To: C-P-R@... Subject: Re: [C-P-R] Fw: Secret CPR "Chinese" trains From: "James E.Mack" <lvrr@...> There are also some photos. The only photo in which one of the trainsWhat year did the CPR start using Elesco feedwater heater and what year did they start using long haul (6 wheel) tenders ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ DON'T HATE YOUR RATE! Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ C-P-R "Canadian Pacific Railway" |
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Re: Lake Erie & Northern Station
From: "Chris Jajko" <alcomlw@...>South East side of the LE&N bridge by about 100 yards. . . |
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Re: Fw: Secret CPR "Chinese" trains
James E.Mack
There are also some photos. The only photo in which one of the trainsWhat year did the CPR start using Elesco feedwater heater and what year did they start using long haul (6 wheel) tenders ? |
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Mixed Trains from the 1950's
Mike Salfi
Was wondering if anyone could help me out with a question regarding "mixed"
trains, as they would have operated in the 1950's on the CPR. It was always my understanding that mixed trains carried the markers on the coach or combination car at the end of the train, however I am now wondering if, in fact, there was a caboose on mixed trains, in which case the markers would have been carried on the caboose. Was there a standard operating practise, or was it at the discretion of the crew of the mixed train? If both cases were true, which would have been the more common practise? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Michael Salfi Kitchener, Ontario email: msalfi@... We are the navvies who work upon the railway, Swinging our hammers in the bright glazing sun, Laying down track and building the bridges, Bending our backs till the railroad is done. From "The Canadian Railroad Trilogy", by Gordon Lightfoot |
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Re: Lake Erie & Northern Station
Rob Sterne
Chris Jajko wrote:
Can anyone tell me where the Lake Erie & Northern station wasI believe it was just to the south of the bridge over the Caso, near where the grain elevators are today. I'm sure Bill Miller Sr., who is on this list, could tell you for sure. It did not share the station with the Caso. Rob |
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Re: Putting a sock in it
Bruce Dixon
At 20:46 3/17/2000 -0500, Paul Cordingley wrote:
Does anyone know why the rails would maintain a wind sock? Are there any When I was still working for the railroad, we used to do abbreviated weather observations (temp, wind, sky cover) 4 to 6 times per day... now, with all of the precautions that must be taken with dangerous goods, accurate wind direction and speed are even more important. Bruce D.B. (Bruce) Dixon Creelman, SK, Canada mailto:bdixon@... |
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Re: steam cab and SGU in HO scale
Jeff Pinchbeck
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-----Original Message----- If this the all weather cab for the G5 or the G2's? jeff At better hobby stores. |
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FROM MY RECORDS-CPR TRAINSPOTTING-PORT COQUITLAM, B.C.-CIRCA-1998 B#82
Donald Scott
Continued From March 13, 2000 -B#77
Canadian Pacific Railway Trainspotting , Port Coquitlam(Vancouver Area)B.C. Uless Noted. All Observations from West-end of Yard. Doing Video Work: Mission B.C. March 18, 1998. 0840-Westbound grain-unit train-GE AC4400CW's 9518-9601-9568 0855-Dead-head power from Port Coquitlam via Mission enroute to Roberts Bank Superport: GE AC4400CW 9500 series-SD40-2 ??-SD40-2 ??-New GE AC4400CW's 9600 series-9600 series-9600 series. Went South a few miles to Matsqui Jct. to the other railway. Maple Meadows, B.C. March 21, 1998 1350-Westbound "Canpotex" Potash-unit train-GE AC4400CW's 9602-9657-9655 1502-Eastbound Empty-grain unit train: GE AC4400CW's 9648-9523-9638 March 22, 1998 Port Coquitlam, B.C. 0830-Train #401 from Toronto-Intermodal runthrough to CPR's Mayfair Intermodal terminal on Southwest line(Westminster Sub: Power-SD40-2-SD40-2-SD40-2-SD40-2 6407 Remarks: Unit 6407 dual flag-lettered CP Rail System-Candy Red. Relettered from Soo. 0830-Grain unit train arriving from East-GE AC4400CW 9550-SD40-2 5865-GE AC4400CW 9549 Remarks: Unit 9549 with RCMP Musical Ride logo. March 23, 1998 Same Location: 1030-Westend yard engines-GP-9's 1582, 1613 Transfer power: GP-38's 3002-E&N Railfreight 3004-3008 Remarks: Unit 1582 in Candy Apple Red-working Remote, unit 1613 still in Action Red. E&N Railreight unit 3004 in green and yellow. March 28, 1998 Same Location: 1000-Transfer to Southwest line(Westminster Sub-enroute New Westminster: GP-35's 5017-5010-5011 a long transfer of Auto-racks several railroads, to re-load Imports. March 27, 1998(left out in error) Same Location: 1055-Intermodal train #401 from Toronto-runthrough on Southwest Line(Westminster Sub) to CP's Mayfair Intermodal Terminal: Power-SD40-2F 9004-SD40-2 5520. Remarks: Unit 5520 in Canday Apple Red scheme-Dual-flag logo 1100-Double-stack train arriving from East-SD40-2 6059-SD40-2 5744 Remarks: UNit 6059 in Candy Apple Red scheme-dual flag logo-no lettered "CP" on unit's nose. Mission, B.C. March 29, 1998 0830-Eastbound empty potash train out of Port Coquitlam; cut over to CP Line going south to Matsqui and rerouted over the other railway-Three new GE AC4400CW's of 9600 series. 0830-Westbound "Canpotex" potash-unt train-GE AC4400CW,s 9579-9614-9536 0930-Westbound grain-unit train: GE AC4400CW's 9545-9600 series-9500 series. 1050-Westbound grain-unit train GE AC4400CW's 9556-9580-9560 March 30, 1998 Port Coquitlam, B.C. 1030-Main-line power dead-head to diesel shop came off southwest line(Westminster Sub) from Sapperton- was earlier runthrough from East: Power SD40-2's 5866-6073-GATX 7378 Remarks-units 5877 and 6073 Canday Apple Red scheme-dual-flag logo. GATX 7378 leased in blue and yellow. To Be Continued At a Later Date. Don Scott-Coquitlam, B.C. |
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