On Aug 25, 2023, at 4:10 PM, sneffels <honeydust@...> wrote:

?Traces of yellow ochre were found on the sculpted menorah; but nothing on the trumpets, and their coloration is purely speculative.? The quotation by Fine makes it clear that the hypothetical silver color is indeed a speculation based on one Roman description of horns, many centuries after the putative events described in Numbers.? Also, that description is from Josephus, whose reliability is variable.??

An academic review of Fine's book on the restoration of the arch:

https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2022/2022.06.27/

"The other coloration of the mock-up is a hypothetical reconstruction done with the aid of comparanda, including computer scans and “comparisons with ancient Roman frescoes” (p. 25). It would have been especially gratifying to know for certain that the two trumpets attached to the shewbread table—as shown in the Polychrome Model—were painted grey and not yellow, indicating silver rather than bronze, and thereby recalling the initial pair that Moses is said to have crafted for the Tabernacle at Sinai (Num. 10.2 and cf. Josephus, Antiquitates Judaicae 3.291–2)."?

The depiction of what does seem to be two trumpets?on the Arch of Titus are truly interesting!

Although, as previously stated, " Even if those Israelite silver trumpets did exist, there's nothing,?nothing,?linking them to the trumpets of any other culture at any other time."

Here is an article by Dr. Steven Fine on the digital restoration of the relevant carvings on the Arch:?file:///C:/Users/Jeff/Downloads/BAR-MJ17-ArchofTitus-3-13-17.pdf

"The trumpets with the table are silver, in keeping with Josephus’s description of two silver horns conceived by Moses for the desert tabernacle."

and another article about creating a computer-controlled?carved replica of the restored panel based on Dr. Fine's scans:

On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 11:54?AM Kim Patrick Clow <telemann@...> wrote:

<honeydust@...> wrote: “Unlike Egyptian trumpets, of which we have two existing examples, there's not the slightest evidence supporting the existence of those Israelite silver trumpets other than that single clearly unreliable text.”?

Well,,,, the arch of Titus clearly shows a triumph in Rome celebrating the defeat of Jerusalem in 7O CE, and that depiction shows a celebratory triumphal march with the carrying the spoils from the sacking of Jerusalem; including a Menorah, as well as chatsotserah (the silver trumpets that were used in the temple cult in Jerusalem; (they are clearly not?shofars). Josephus described the parade as he saw it:?

“The spoils in general were borne in promiscuous heaps; but conspicuous above all stood those captured in the temple at Jerusalem. These consisted of a golden table, many talents in weight, and a lampstand, likewise made of gold, but constructed on a different pattern than those which we use in ordinary life. Affixed to a pedestal was a central shaft, from which there extended slender branches, arranged trident-fashion, a wrought lamp being attached to the extremity of each branch, of these there were seven, indicating the honor paid to that number among the Jews. After these, and last of all the spoils, was carried a copy of the Jewish Law. They followed a large party carrying images of victory, all made of ivory and gold. Behind them drove Vespasian, followed by Titus; while Domitian rode beside them, in magnificent apparel and mounted on a steed that was in itself a sight.” The Jewish War VII: 148-153, Thackeray translation.

That said, I think all that can be said is the arch of Titus is only showing what was taken from Jerusalem in 70 C.E.

Warm regards

Kim

On Wed, Aug 23, 2023 at 11:02?PM Jeffrey Solow <solowcello@...> wrote:

Dear Zachary,

I did not see any content in any of these emails as promoting atheism or attacking anyone’s belief in God or religion. The discussion was about historically reliable evidence regarding the existence of certain physical objects. What I saw was skepticism regarding the belief in the Bible as an infallibly reliable historical source — the view of most historians. Of course, if someone accepts the Bible as literally true in every regard, then I can understand that such skepticism could be viewed as an attack on religion. If you are taking that position and are offended by such skepticism, I would say that is over-sensitivity on your part.

JS

On Aug 23, 2023, at 9:53 PM, Zachary Uram <netrek@...> wrote:

?

There was a discussion on this list about trumpets and in answering certain questions a certain list member suddenly launched into an offtopic tirade attacking the Bible. This sort of polemical discussion of the Christian faith has absolutely no place on a mailing list devoted to music.

I see this online frequently from atheists. In their view God doesn't exist, yet He's to blame for all the world's problems and they hate him! It's absurd.

I have been in many Facebook groups, discussion forums, and mailing lists where atheists will launch into weak attacks on the Bible and the Christian faith in general and they are totally off topic. If I want to hear attacks on the veracity of the Bible I'll join a Richard Dawkings mailing list.

Sadly the list admins said nothing to reprimand and rebuke the offender. So I'll say it: KINDLY KEEP OFF TOPIC DISCUSSION OFF THE LIST!!

SDG,

Zach

On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 2:26?AM sneffels <honeydust@...> wrote:

You are confusing "belief" with "truth"; and "might be" with "is."

Of course Bach believed in the Christian mythos, and it had a profound effect on his music.? Understanding that is essential to understanding Bach, just as understanding Athena and Apollo are essential to understanding the Iliad.

The Bach-annotated Bible has been known for nearly a century; you can have a copy for 5500 euros.? Does he say anything about those silver trumpets?? Just mentioning those annotations without bothering to check if they have anything to do with the present discussion is only a distraction.? I'd bet a pizza that Bach said nothing about those trumpets.? If he said anything, it would be well-known and frequently cited in historical research.? But it's not.

There are not?"two types of truth."? What someone believes by "revelation" is purely internal, personal and private, and has nothing to do with the external world.? If it did, then you must accept as true the revelations to Muslims that Jesus was just another prophet, superseded by Mohammed.? The Hindus' revelations about Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva and Shakti must also be true.? 30,000,000 Sikhs can't be wrong with their revelations from the prophet Guru Nanak. Raelians and Aetherians have revelations that UFOs are space aliens who are gods.? The Mormons had revelations about magic underwear; that must also be true.??Druids, Wiccans, Soka Gakkai, Yazdans, Zoroastrians, Akanists, Dinkans, Sans, and Kemetics have all had revelations.? There are 2600 gods revealed to humanity all over the world.? So are there 2600 truths?? Claiming there are multiple truths makes the word "truth" meaningless and useless.? These are beliefs, not truths.? Truths are verifiable independently of the believer.??

You said:? 'You cast doubt on the existence of the Silver Trumpets on the basis that "Biblical texts are often extremely unreliable and contradictory, frequently conflict with well-established facts, and are often just fabrications"'.? Then you drop the subject.? Do you have more to say?? The Bible tells you that bats are birds, whales are fish, the world is flat, and pi is exactly equal to three.? Anything said about ancient silver trumpets in such a text must be carefully verified with multiple lines of independent evidence before it's acceptable; even the vast majority of Christian historians and Biblical scholars agree on that.? Unlike Egyptian trumpets, of which we have two existing examples, there's not the slightest evidence supporting the existence of those Israelite silver trumpets other than that single clearly unreliable text.? Add to that the fact that interpretations of the text range from absolute acceptance of every word in the text (the world is flat), all the way to everything in that text is metaphorical and not meant to be taken in any sense as fact.? It's simply nonsense to claim that the "religious truth of the verse prevails," given how clearly and obviously unreliable the texts are.? And:? "In case a verse in the Bible, for example, on the Silver Trumpets, has no empirical evidence or contradicts empirical evidence the religious truth of the verse prevails."? No, you can't just say "You can't prove it's wrong, therefore it's true."? You owe me $20.? You can't prove you don't, so pay up.??

Now let's put the concepts together.? To fully understand Bach's music, of course we need to understand his beliefs and their relationship with his music.? To understand the history and origins of the trumpet, we need to examine thousands of archaeological relics and texts, examine their relationships, and try to understand the significance of their many contradictions and omissions.? What Bach believed about the history of the trumpet is a very interesting point; though we have no idea what he thought about those silver trumpets.? Even if those Israelite silver trumpets did exist, there's nothing,?nothing, linking them to the trumpets of any other culture at any other time.? But just rejecting 2599 revelations and claiming your favorite is the reliable one is disingenuous at best.??We need to understand both Bach's beliefs, and?what actually happened in the real world and the real facts that Bach was working with; and recognize that those may be contradictory and try to understand what that might mean.

The scholarly discussions in this group are interesting and enlightening, exactly because they refer not to personal beliefs, but to documented facts and evidence which should continue and expand.

--

<><
Soli Deo Gloria

><>

--

--

Jeffrey Solow
Professor of Cello
Boyer College of Music and Dance
Temple University, Philadelphia, PA 19122

Past President, ASTA
Past President, The Violoncello Society, Inc. (NY)
h. 215-635-0809
w. 215-204-8025

Rock Hall #206

solowcello@...

<honeydust@...> wrote: “Unlike Egyptian trumpets, of which we have two existing examples, there's not the slightest evidence supporting the existence of those Israelite silver trumpets other than that single clearly unreliable text.”?

Well,,,, the arch of Titus clearly shows a triumph in Rome celebrating the defeat of Jerusalem in 7O CE, and that depiction shows a celebratory triumphal march with the carrying the spoils from the sacking of Jerusalem; including a Menorah, as well as chatsotserah (the silver trumpets that were used in the temple cult in Jerusalem; (they are clearly not?shofars). Josephus described the parade as he saw it:?

“The spoils in general were borne in promiscuous heaps; but conspicuous above all stood those captured in the temple at Jerusalem. These consisted of a golden table, many talents in weight, and a lampstand, likewise made of gold, but constructed on a different pattern than those which we use in ordinary life. Affixed to a pedestal was a central shaft, from which there extended slender branches, arranged trident-fashion, a wrought lamp being attached to the extremity of each branch, of these there were seven, indicating the honor paid to that number among the Jews. After these, and last of all the spoils, was carried a copy of the Jewish Law. They followed a large party carrying images of victory, all made of ivory and gold. Behind them drove Vespasian, followed by Titus; while Domitian rode beside them, in magnificent apparel and mounted on a steed that was in itself a sight.” The Jewish War VII: 148-153, Thackeray translation.

That said, I think all that can be said is the arch of Titus is only showing what was taken from Jerusalem in 70 C.E.

Warm regards

Kim

On Wed, Aug 23, 2023 at 11:02?PM Jeffrey Solow <solowcello@...> wrote:

Dear Zachary,

I did not see any content in any of these emails as promoting atheism or attacking anyone’s belief in God or religion. The discussion was about historically reliable evidence regarding the existence of certain physical objects. What I saw was skepticism regarding the belief in the Bible as an infallibly reliable historical source — the view of most historians. Of course, if someone accepts the Bible as literally true in every regard, then I can understand that such skepticism could be viewed as an attack on religion. If you are taking that position and are offended by such skepticism, I would say that is over-sensitivity on your part.

JS

On Aug 23, 2023, at 9:53 PM, Zachary Uram <netrek@...> wrote:

?

There was a discussion on this list about trumpets and in answering certain questions a certain list member suddenly launched into an offtopic tirade attacking the Bible. This sort of polemical discussion of the Christian faith has absolutely no place on a mailing list devoted to music.

I see this online frequently from atheists. In their view God doesn't exist, yet He's to blame for all the world's problems and they hate him! It's absurd.

I have been in many Facebook groups, discussion forums, and mailing lists where atheists will launch into weak attacks on the Bible and the Christian faith in general and they are totally off topic. If I want to hear attacks on the veracity of the Bible I'll join a Richard Dawkings mailing list.

Sadly the list admins said nothing to reprimand and rebuke the offender. So I'll say it: KINDLY KEEP OFF TOPIC DISCUSSION OFF THE LIST!!

SDG,

Zach

On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 2:26?AM sneffels <honeydust@...> wrote:

You are confusing "belief" with "truth"; and "might be" with "is."

Of course Bach believed in the Christian mythos, and it had a profound effect on his music.? Understanding that is essential to understanding Bach, just as understanding Athena and Apollo are essential to understanding the Iliad.

The Bach-annotated Bible has been known for nearly a century; you can have a copy for 5500 euros.? Does he say anything about those silver trumpets?? Just mentioning those annotations without bothering to check if they have anything to do with the present discussion is only a distraction.? I'd bet a pizza that Bach said nothing about those trumpets.? If he said anything, it would be well-known and frequently cited in historical research.? But it's not.

There are not?"two types of truth."? What someone believes by "revelation" is purely internal, personal and private, and has nothing to do with the external world.? If it did, then you must accept as true the revelations to Muslims that Jesus was just another prophet, superseded by Mohammed.? The Hindus' revelations about Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva and Shakti must also be true.? 30,000,000 Sikhs can't be wrong with their revelations from the prophet Guru Nanak. Raelians and Aetherians have revelations that UFOs are space aliens who are gods.? The Mormons had revelations about magic underwear; that must also be true.??Druids, Wiccans, Soka Gakkai, Yazdans, Zoroastrians, Akanists, Dinkans, Sans, and Kemetics have all had revelations.? There are 2600 gods revealed to humanity all over the world.? So are there 2600 truths?? Claiming there are multiple truths makes the word "truth" meaningless and useless.? These are beliefs, not truths.? Truths are verifiable independently of the believer.??

You said:? 'You cast doubt on the existence of the Silver Trumpets on the basis that "Biblical texts are often extremely unreliable and contradictory, frequently conflict with well-established facts, and are often just fabrications"'.? Then you drop the subject.? Do you have more to say?? The Bible tells you that bats are birds, whales are fish, the world is flat, and pi is exactly equal to three.? Anything said about ancient silver trumpets in such a text must be carefully verified with multiple lines of independent evidence before it's acceptable; even the vast majority of Christian historians and Biblical scholars agree on that.? Unlike Egyptian trumpets, of which we have two existing examples, there's not the slightest evidence supporting the existence of those Israelite silver trumpets other than that single clearly unreliable text.? Add to that the fact that interpretations of the text range from absolute acceptance of every word in the text (the world is flat), all the way to everything in that text is metaphorical and not meant to be taken in any sense as fact.? It's simply nonsense to claim that the "religious truth of the verse prevails," given how clearly and obviously unreliable the texts are.? And:? "In case a verse in the Bible, for example, on the Silver Trumpets, has no empirical evidence or contradicts empirical evidence the religious truth of the verse prevails."? No, you can't just say "You can't prove it's wrong, therefore it's true."? You owe me $20.? You can't prove you don't, so pay up.??

Now let's put the concepts together.? To fully understand Bach's music, of course we need to understand his beliefs and their relationship with his music.? To understand the history and origins of the trumpet, we need to examine thousands of archaeological relics and texts, examine their relationships, and try to understand the significance of their many contradictions and omissions.? What Bach believed about the history of the trumpet is a very interesting point; though we have no idea what he thought about those silver trumpets.? Even if those Israelite silver trumpets did exist, there's nothing,?nothing, linking them to the trumpets of any other culture at any other time.? But just rejecting 2599 revelations and claiming your favorite is the reliable one is disingenuous at best.??We need to understand both Bach's beliefs, and?what actually happened in the real world and the real facts that Bach was working with; and recognize that those may be contradictory and try to understand what that might mean.

The scholarly discussions in this group are interesting and enlightening, exactly because they refer not to personal beliefs, but to documented facts and evidence which should continue and expand.

--

<><
Soli Deo Gloria

><>

--

------ Original Message ------
From: solowcello@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: [BML] Question about Bach-period trumpets - Silver Trumpets
?

Dear Zachary,

?

I did not see any content in any of these emails as promoting atheism or attacking anyone’s belief in God or religion. The discussion was about historically reliable evidence regarding the existence of certain physical objects. What I saw was skepticism regarding the belief in the Bible as an infallibly reliable historical source — the view of most historians. Of course, if someone accepts the Bible as literally true in every regard, then I can understand that such skepticism could be viewed as an attack on religion. If you are taking that position and are offended by such skepticism, I would say that is over-sensitivity on your part.

?

JS

?

On Aug 23, 2023, at 9:53 PM, Zachary Uram <netrek@...> wrote:

?

There was a discussion on this list about trumpets and in answering certain questions a certain list member suddenly launched into an offtopic tirade attacking the Bible. This sort of polemical discussion of the Christian faith has absolutely no place on a mailing list devoted to music.

?

I see this online frequently from atheists. In their view God doesn't exist, yet He's to blame for all the world's problems and they hate him! It's absurd.
?

?

I have been in many Facebook groups, discussion forums, and mailing lists where atheists will launch into weak attacks on the Bible and the Christian faith in general and they are totally off topic. If I want to hear attacks on the veracity of the Bible I'll join a Richard Dawkings mailing list.

?

Sadly the list admins said nothing to reprimand and rebuke the offender. So I'll say it: KINDLY KEEP OFF TOPIC DISCUSSION OFF THE LIST!!

?

SDG,

Zach
?

?

On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 2:26?AM sneffels <honeydust@...> wrote:
?

You are confusing "belief" with "truth"; and "might be" with "is."

Of course Bach believed in the Christian mythos, and it had a profound effect on his music.? Understanding that is essential to understanding Bach, just as understanding Athena and Apollo are essential to understanding the Iliad.

The Bach-annotated Bible has been known for nearly a century; you can have a copy for 5500 euros.? Does he say anything about those silver trumpets?? Just mentioning those annotations without bothering to check if they have anything to do with the present discussion is only a distraction.? I'd bet a pizza that Bach said nothing about those trumpets.? If he said anything, it would be well-known and frequently cited in historical research.? But it's not.

There are not?"two types of truth."? What someone believes by "revelation" is purely internal, personal and private, and has nothing to do with the external world.? If it did, then you must accept as true the revelations to Muslims that Jesus was just another prophet, superseded by Mohammed.? The Hindus' revelations about Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva and Shakti must also be true.? 30,000,000 Sikhs can't be wrong with their revelations from the prophet Guru Nanak. Raelians and Aetherians have revelations that UFOs are space aliens who are gods.? The Mormons had revelations about magic underwear; that must also be true.??Druids, Wiccans, Soka Gakkai, Yazdans, Zoroastrians, Akanists, Dinkans, Sans, and Kemetics have all had revelations.? There are 2600 gods revealed to humanity all over the world.? So are there 2600 truths?? Claiming there are multiple truths makes the word "truth" meaningless and useless.? These are beliefs, not truths.? Truths are verifiable independently of the believer.??

You said:? 'You cast doubt on the existence of the Silver Trumpets on the basis that "Biblical texts are often extremely unreliable and contradictory, frequently conflict with well-established facts, and are often just fabrications"'.? Then you drop the subject.? Do you have more to say?? The Bible tells you that bats are birds, whales are fish, the world is flat, and pi is exactly equal to three.? Anything said about ancient silver trumpets in such a text must be carefully verified with multiple lines of independent evidence before it's acceptable; even the vast majority of Christian historians and Biblical scholars agree on that.? Unlike Egyptian trumpets, of which we have two existing examples, there's not the slightest evidence supporting the existence of those Israelite silver trumpets other than that single clearly unreliable text.? Add to that the fact that interpretations of the text range from absolute acceptance of every word in the text (the world is flat), all the way to everything in that text is metaphorical and not meant to be taken in any sense as fact.? It's simply nonsense to claim that the "religious truth of the verse prevails," given how clearly and obviously unreliable the texts are.? And:? "In case a verse in the Bible, for example, on the Silver Trumpets, has no empirical evidence or contradicts empirical evidence the religious truth of the verse prevails."? No, you can't just say "You can't prove it's wrong, therefore it's true."? You owe me $20.? You can't prove you don't, so pay up.??

Now let's put the concepts together.? To fully understand Bach's music, of course we need to understand his beliefs and their relationship with his music.? To understand the history and origins of the trumpet, we need to examine thousands of archaeological relics and texts, examine their relationships, and try to understand the significance of their many contradictions and omissions.? What Bach believed about the history of the trumpet is a very interesting point; though we have no idea what he thought about those silver trumpets.? Even if those Israelite silver trumpets did exist, there's nothing,?nothing, linking them to the trumpets of any other culture at any other time.? But just rejecting 2599 revelations and claiming your favorite is the reliable one is disingenuous at best.??We need to understand both Bach's beliefs, and?what actually happened in the real world and the real facts that Bach was working with; and recognize that those may be contradictory and try to understand what that might mean.

The scholarly discussions in this group are interesting and enlightening, exactly because they refer not to personal beliefs, but to documented facts and evidence which should continue and expand.

?

?

--?
?

<><
Soli Deo Gloria

><>

--?

On Aug 23, 2023, at 9:53 PM, Zachary Uram <netrek@...> wrote:

?

There was a discussion on this list about trumpets and in answering certain questions a certain list member suddenly launched into an offtopic tirade attacking the Bible. This sort of polemical discussion of the Christian faith has absolutely no place on a mailing list devoted to music.

I see this online frequently from atheists. In their view God doesn't exist, yet He's to blame for all the world's problems and they hate him! It's absurd.

I have been in many Facebook groups, discussion forums, and mailing lists where atheists will launch into weak attacks on the Bible and the Christian faith in general and they are totally off topic. If I want to hear attacks on the veracity of the Bible I'll join a Richard Dawkings mailing list.

Sadly the list admins said nothing to reprimand and rebuke the offender. So I'll say it: KINDLY KEEP OFF TOPIC DISCUSSION OFF THE LIST!!

SDG,

Zach

On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 2:26?AM sneffels <honeydust@...> wrote:

You are confusing "belief" with "truth"; and "might be" with "is."

Of course Bach believed in the Christian mythos, and it had a profound effect on his music.? Understanding that is essential to understanding Bach, just as understanding Athena and Apollo are essential to understanding the Iliad.

The Bach-annotated Bible has been known for nearly a century; you can have a copy for 5500 euros.? Does he say anything about those silver trumpets?? Just mentioning those annotations without bothering to check if they have anything to do with the present discussion is only a distraction.? I'd bet a pizza that Bach said nothing about those trumpets.? If he said anything, it would be well-known and frequently cited in historical research.? But it's not.

There are not?"two types of truth."? What someone believes by "revelation" is purely internal, personal and private, and has nothing to do with the external world.? If it did, then you must accept as true the revelations to Muslims that Jesus was just another prophet, superseded by Mohammed.? The Hindus' revelations about Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva and Shakti must also be true.? 30,000,000 Sikhs can't be wrong with their revelations from the prophet Guru Nanak. Raelians and Aetherians have revelations that UFOs are space aliens who are gods.? The Mormons had revelations about magic underwear; that must also be true.??Druids, Wiccans, Soka Gakkai, Yazdans, Zoroastrians, Akanists, Dinkans, Sans, and Kemetics have all had revelations.? There are 2600 gods revealed to humanity all over the world.? So are there 2600 truths?? Claiming there are multiple truths makes the word "truth" meaningless and useless.? These are beliefs, not truths.? Truths are verifiable independently of the believer.??

You said:? 'You cast doubt on the existence of the Silver Trumpets on the basis that "Biblical texts are often extremely unreliable and contradictory, frequently conflict with well-established facts, and are often just fabrications"'.? Then you drop the subject.? Do you have more to say?? The Bible tells you that bats are birds, whales are fish, the world is flat, and pi is exactly equal to three.? Anything said about ancient silver trumpets in such a text must be carefully verified with multiple lines of independent evidence before it's acceptable; even the vast majority of Christian historians and Biblical scholars agree on that.? Unlike Egyptian trumpets, of which we have two existing examples, there's not the slightest evidence supporting the existence of those Israelite silver trumpets other than that single clearly unreliable text.? Add to that the fact that interpretations of the text range from absolute acceptance of every word in the text (the world is flat), all the way to everything in that text is metaphorical and not meant to be taken in any sense as fact.? It's simply nonsense to claim that the "religious truth of the verse prevails," given how clearly and obviously unreliable the texts are.? And:? "In case a verse in the Bible, for example, on the Silver Trumpets, has no empirical evidence or contradicts empirical evidence the religious truth of the verse prevails."? No, you can't just say "You can't prove it's wrong, therefore it's true."? You owe me $20.? You can't prove you don't, so pay up.??

Now let's put the concepts together.? To fully understand Bach's music, of course we need to understand his beliefs and their relationship with his music.? To understand the history and origins of the trumpet, we need to examine thousands of archaeological relics and texts, examine their relationships, and try to understand the significance of their many contradictions and omissions.? What Bach believed about the history of the trumpet is a very interesting point; though we have no idea what he thought about those silver trumpets.? Even if those Israelite silver trumpets did exist, there's nothing,?nothing, linking them to the trumpets of any other culture at any other time.? But just rejecting 2599 revelations and claiming your favorite is the reliable one is disingenuous at best.??We need to understand both Bach's beliefs, and?what actually happened in the real world and the real facts that Bach was working with; and recognize that those may be contradictory and try to understand what that might mean.

The scholarly discussions in this group are interesting and enlightening, exactly because they refer not to personal beliefs, but to documented facts and evidence which should continue and expand.

--

<><
Soli Deo Gloria

><>

--