There was a discussion on this list about trumpets and in answering certain questions a certain list member suddenly launched into an offtopic tirade attacking the Bible. This sort of polemical discussion of the Christian faith has absolutely no place on a mailing list devoted to music.
I see this online frequently from atheists. In their view God doesn't exist, yet He's to blame for all the world's problems and they hate him! It's absurd.
I have been in many Facebook groups, discussion forums, and mailing lists where atheists will launch into weak attacks on the Bible and the Christian faith in general and they are totally off topic. If I want to hear attacks on the veracity of the Bible I'll join a Richard Dawkings mailing list.
Sadly the list admins said nothing to reprimand and rebuke the offender. So I'll say it: KINDLY KEEP OFF TOPIC DISCUSSION OFF THE LIST!!
On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 2:26?AM sneffels <honeydust@...> wrote:
You are confusing "belief" with "truth"; and "might be" with "is."
Of course Bach believed in the Christian mythos, and it had a profound effect on his music.? Understanding that is essential to understanding Bach, just as understanding Athena and Apollo are essential to understanding the Iliad.
The Bach-annotated Bible has been known for nearly a century; you can have a copy for 5500 euros.? Does he say anything about those silver trumpets?? Just mentioning those annotations without bothering to check if they have anything to do with the present discussion is only a distraction.? I'd bet a pizza that Bach said nothing about those trumpets.? If he said anything, it would be well-known and frequently cited in historical research.? But it's not.
There are not?"two types of truth."? What someone believes by "revelation" is purely internal, personal and private, and has nothing to do with the external world.? If it did, then you must accept as true the revelations to Muslims that Jesus was just another prophet, superseded by Mohammed.? The Hindus' revelations about Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva and Shakti must also be true.? 30,000,000 Sikhs can't be wrong with their revelations from the prophet Guru Nanak. Raelians and Aetherians have revelations that UFOs are space aliens who are gods.? The Mormons had revelations about magic underwear; that must also be true.??Druids, Wiccans, Soka Gakkai, Yazdans, Zoroastrians, Akanists, Dinkans, Sans, and Kemetics have all had revelations.? There are 2600 gods revealed to humanity all over the world.? So are there 2600 truths?? Claiming there are multiple truths makes the word "truth" meaningless and useless.? These are beliefs, not truths.? Truths are verifiable independently of the believer.??
You said:? 'You cast doubt on the existence of the Silver Trumpets on the basis that "Biblical texts are often extremely unreliable and contradictory, frequently conflict with well-established facts, and are often just fabrications"'.? Then you drop the subject.? Do you have more to say?? The Bible tells you that bats are birds, whales are fish, the world is flat, and pi is exactly equal to three.? Anything said about ancient silver trumpets in such a text must be carefully verified with multiple lines of independent evidence before it's acceptable; even the vast majority of Christian historians and Biblical scholars agree on that.? Unlike Egyptian trumpets, of which we have two existing examples, there's not the slightest evidence supporting the existence of those Israelite silver trumpets other than that single clearly unreliable text.? Add to that the fact that interpretations of the text range from absolute acceptance of every word in the text (the world is flat), all the way to everything in that text is metaphorical and not meant to be taken in any sense as fact.? It's simply nonsense to claim that the "religious truth of the verse prevails," given how clearly and obviously unreliable the texts are.? And:? "In case a verse in the Bible, for example, on the Silver Trumpets, has no empirical evidence or contradicts empirical evidence the religious truth of the verse prevails."? No, you can't just say "You can't prove it's wrong, therefore it's true."? You owe me $20.? You can't prove you don't, so pay up.??
Now let's put the concepts together.? To fully understand Bach's music, of course we need to understand his beliefs and their relationship with his music.? To understand the history and origins of the trumpet, we need to examine thousands of archaeological relics and texts, examine their relationships, and try to understand the significance of their many contradictions and omissions.? What Bach believed about the history of the trumpet is a very interesting point; though we have no idea what he thought about those silver trumpets.? Even if those Israelite silver trumpets did exist, there's nothing,?nothing, linking them to the trumpets of any other culture at any other time.? But just rejecting 2599 revelations and claiming your favorite is the reliable one is disingenuous at best.??We need to understand both Bach's beliefs, and?what actually happened in the real world and the real facts that Bach was working with; and recognize that those may be contradictory and try to understand what that might mean.
The scholarly discussions in this group are interesting and enlightening, exactly because they refer not to personal beliefs, but to documented facts and evidence which should continue and expand.