Re: Right-sided relay harmonic attempted fix for v3/4 ubitx
Wow!!!? ?Looks like 21 of the 25 boards? have already sold in about 4-1/2 hours since I put up the ebay --- I expect I'll be able to mail all of those out tomorrow as I have a day off from work....then I'll see if I should order more.??
Hope this helps out people.? ?I'm going to try and keep some records so the IRS doesn't accuse me to hiding income.....
Again, for any who are doing a LARGE project, the zipped Gerber files are available both in the FILES section here, and on github --- $20 gets you 10 boards from pcbway.? ? Cheaper than I can turn them around!? ?I have to go to 25 boards to get the cost per board down to roughly that same "introductory" pricing they have.??
Our ARES group is gearing up for the ARRL Simulated Emergency Test...I sure hope at some point I get the chance to actually sit down and fiddle with my uBitx soon....the matched filters arrived and now I need to order some of the binocular toroids....what a great group this is!
Gordon
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ClockBuilder assumes you are using the si5351 to replace fixed oscillators.
Our vfo at clk2 has to operate continuously over a 30mhz range, you can't run
ClockBuilder every time you twiddle the tuning knob.
But ClockBuilder can give you some idea of the tricks that only SiLabs knows about
for getting the cleanest possible clocks out.? Some are counter-intuitive.?
What we have now is simple and almost good enough.
Could be that with some $0.10 clock buffers it will be good enough.
In addition to crosstalk and spurs, there's also phase noise.
We might be able to bring that down by 50% with a minor software fix.
In particular, use integer output divide mode on the clk2 vfo, driven from pllB
using a fractional pll feedback divider.? Perhaps use an integer output divide on pllA
for clk1, and a fractional output divide of pllA for clk0 for the bfo which is of the
lowest frequency and thus the least critical.? Or add a second si5351 chip.
Or move to an si5338 or s5340.? But nobody's complaining about phase noise yet.?
The si5351 is likely far better than traditional analog vfo's for phase noise.
Note that clock spurs are different than the spurs?everybody is talking about in this forum.?
Particularly that 45mhz-Carrier spur, and spurs due to?coupling from power amp to IF amps.
Nobody has complained about si5351 clock spurs yet.
Somebody here was selling a raduino with an si5351c,
has the 8 output pins with four? Vcco pins in a $10 QFN20 package.
Called it something like the "whole lotta clocks raduino"
Might be worth checking to see how that does on crosstalk between clocks.
Though adding three $0.10 buffers would be cheaper if all you want is 3 clocks.
I have heard that if only using two of the $1 si5351 MSOP10 clocks, best off to stick with
clk0 and clk2.? Since clk1 is placed between the clk0 and clk2 in the physical die,
we have minimum crosstalk if clk1 is held low.? So perhaps two si5351's,
using clk0 and clk2 on each on for a total of four possible clocks?
Can use pllA on clk0, pllB on clk2, both can have integer mode output dividers
for minimum phase noise.
Jerry, KE7ER
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On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 08:30 AM, Mark McNabb wrote:
Not sure if this will help or not, but just saw this on the SILabs forum posted by an employee:
The Si5351 parts can be configured many different ways and can?have very different spurious and crosstalk performance for the same output frequencies rearranged on?different output pins.
?
The Si5351 Clock Builder software runs an algorithm to?arrange the different output frequencies?to?optimize performance and should be used when defining the device output pins. It is possible to override the optimal output frequency placement created by the Si5351 Clock Builder software, but this can possibly reduce jitter performance compared to the optimal placement.
?
The best option to understand the Si5351 spurious performance for your application is to use the Si5351 Clock Builder software to design an ouput?configuration and then submit that design file?in a technical?support request along with a description of what performance parameters are most important for the system. Si5351 performance for those parameters in that specific configuration can then be measured by SiLabs application engineers.
73,
Mark.
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Hi, Not sure if this will help or not, but just saw this on the SILabs forum posted by an employee:
The Si5351 parts can be configured many different ways and can?have very different spurious and crosstalk performance for the same output frequencies rearranged on?different output pins.
?
The Si5351 Clock Builder software runs an algorithm to?arrange the different output frequencies?to?optimize performance and should be used when defining the device output pins. It is possible to override the optimal output frequency placement created by the Si5351 Clock Builder software, but this can possibly reduce jitter performance compared to the optimal placement.
?
The best option to understand the Si5351 spurious performance for your application is to use the Si5351 Clock Builder software to design an ouput?configuration and then submit that design file?in a technical?support request along with a description of what performance parameters are most important for the system. Si5351 performance for those parameters in that specific configuration can then be measured by SiLabs application engineers.
73, Mark.
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I heard earlier and confirmed today that si labs had given certain recommendations regarding crosstalk on si5351a chip
here is the link to the related page,. Hope it serves our cause too. regards sarma ?vu3zmv
Carl,
I would think so.???#58782
One VDDO pad per clock out should be much better than 3 clocks sharing the same power pad.
Also the?QFN? package has a much better GND solution.? But it comes down to what is the cost effective required improvement.
Rgds,
Gary
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Re: Right-sided relay harmonic attempted fix for v3/4 ubitx
Hello Gordon, ? Order placed. ? Thank you sir for taking on this project. ? Ripley ? Sent from for Windows 10 ?
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From: Gordon GibbySent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 8:38 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [BITX20] Right-sided relay harmonic attempted fix for v3/4 ubitx ? AVAILABLE AGAIN! ? Found the package of boards sitting on a neighbor's doorstep.? Hooray!? ?Managed to get the listing re-activated (eBay isn't that easy to figure out....but I got it).?? ?
? ?I found I can mail either 1 or 2 in a first class envelope to anywhere that the United States Postal Service can mail -- now that I know what they charged me, I can sell in groups of 1 or 2 boards, and will endeavor to put $1 refund in any orders of 2.? ? ? Again, the GERBERS are freely available so if you wish to take on this project for a club or group, you can simply order 10 boards for about $20 (including shipping) directly from pcbway.com yourself and save quite a bit of $$.? ?I'm just providing these onesies and twosies for the folks who cant/don't want to order pcbs themselves.? (e.g., if you order 4 boards, I'll ship as two envelopes of two boards each to make sure I stay on the good side of the USPS, as a non-machineable first class envelope of minimal thickness) ? ? With all the fixes for the SPURS being developed and tested by Warren, Raj, and so many others....wow!? y'all are giving great ideas to the manufacturer and this product will become even better with all the suggestions y'all and Allison and others have been making.? ?The ham community will benefit from all the volunteer wisdom being donated. ? Cheers, ? gordon kx4z 
From: Gibby,Gordon L
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 9:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Right-sided relay harmonic attempted fix for v3/4 ubitx Well, we have an unexpected setback. The powers that be in my neighborhood concluded that our mailboxes were not uniform enough, so they spent our money and pulled up all of our existing mailboxes and put new ones in, .....without any house numbers. ? Things have to be done just so are they aren¡¯t happy, so none of us have even touched the new $500 mailboxes.? Not realizing that risk, I signed for DHL to deliver the $50 worth of printed circuit boards from? China without a signature, since I was expecting to be at work....no way to sign for them.? They were delivered all right, and even a day earlier than expected ¡ªbut nobody knows where!! ?About 230 this afternoon, somebody got the package (based on the tracking information). ?I have emailed everyone in my homeowners association hoping someone found the package..... If not, I guess I am out the $50 and will decide whether to re-order the order again. One step forward, two steps back? Hello Gordon, Good to hear. I am looking forward to purchasing a few. Ripley The words are mine but this iPad does what it will with them.
On Sep 9, 2018, at 4:58 PM, Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...> wrote:
Hi folks....
25 new blank boards for the simple-minded right-sided relay board fix are supposed to arrive from China on Tuesday.? ?If so, I'll re-enable? the Ebay advertisement and up the "count" (a learning experience) on Wednesday.? ?Was able to mail out five boards on Friday before leaving on a camping trip.? ?Hope they arrive OK!!!? ?I figured out how to mark them as "shipped" and send a note to each purchaser through Ebay.? ?With all the SPUR FIXES now being discovered, things are really shaping up around this little transceiver to make it have much fewer spurious responses.? ?Delighted to see the group progress.? ?Each person proceeds at? their own pace, but the group moves forward huge amounts.
Cheers,
gordon KX4Z
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Carl, I would think so.? ??#58782One VDDO pad per clock out should be much better than 3 clocks sharing the same power pad. Also the?QFN? package has a much better GND solution.? But it comes down to what is the cost effective required improvement. Rgds, Gary
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RCboatguy,
The problem may not be the supply line but the ground line and even if there are more?
its still current flowing on internal ground buses and the bulk silicon.
The only way to know is test.
Allison
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I am wondering if we could use the 8-output version of the Si5351 instead of the 3-output version to reduce the cross-talk.? The 8-output version has separate Vddox inputs per pair of clock outputs instead of sharing 1 Vddo supply pin across all three outputs.? If we used only used 1 output from 3 of the 4 pairs, we'd at least separate the supplies for each output we use, and each supply pin can have its own decoupling cap.
73,
Carl,? K0MWC
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Re: Right-sided relay harmonic attempted fix for v3/4 ubitx
AVAILABLE AGAIN!
Found the package of boards sitting on a neighbor's doorstep.? Hooray!? ?Managed to get the listing re-activated (eBay isn't that easy to figure out....but I got it).??
?I found I can mail either 1 or 2 in a first class envelope to anywhere that the United States Postal Service can mail -- now that I know what they charged me, I can sell in groups of 1 or 2 boards, and will endeavor to put $1 refund in any orders of 2.?
?
Again, the GERBERS are freely available so if you wish to take on this project for a club or group, you can simply order 10 boards for about $20 (including shipping) directly from pcbway.com yourself and save quite a bit of $$.? ?I'm just providing these
onesies and twosies for the folks who cant/don't want to order pcbs themselves.? (e.g., if you order 4 boards, I'll ship as two envelopes of two boards each to make sure I stay on the good side of the USPS, as a non-machineable first class envelope of minimal
thickness)
With all the fixes for the SPURS being developed and tested by Warren, Raj, and so many others....wow!? y'all are giving great ideas to the manufacturer and this product will become even better with all the suggestions y'all and Allison and others have been
making.? ?The ham community will benefit from all the volunteer wisdom being donated.
Cheers,
gordon kx4z
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Show quoted text
From: Gibby,Gordon L
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 9:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Right-sided relay harmonic attempted fix for v3/4 ubitx
?
Well, we have an unexpected setback.
The powers that be in my neighborhood concluded that our mailboxes were not uniform enough, so they spent our money and pulled up all of our existing mailboxes and put new ones in, .....without any house numbers. ? Things have to be done just so are they
aren¡¯t happy, so none of us have even touched the new $500 mailboxes.?
Not realizing that risk, I signed for DHL to deliver the $50 worth of printed circuit boards from?
China without a signature, since I was expecting to be at work....no way to sign for them.?
They were delivered all right, and even a day earlier than expected ¡ªbut nobody knows where!! ?About 230 this afternoon, somebody got the package (based on the tracking information). ?I have emailed everyone in my homeowners association hoping someone
found the package.....
If not, I guess I am out the $50 and will decide whether to re-order the order again.
Such. Is. Life. ?
One step forward, two steps back?
Gordon.?
Hello Gordon,
Good to hear. I am looking forward to purchasing a few.
Ripley
The words are mine but this iPad does what it will with them.
On Sep 9, 2018, at 4:58 PM, Gordon Gibby < ggibby@...> wrote:
Hi folks....
25 new blank boards for the simple-minded right-sided relay board fix are supposed to arrive from China on Tuesday.? ?If so, I'll re-enable? the Ebay advertisement and up the "count" (a learning experience) on Wednesday.? ?Was able to mail out five boards on
Friday before leaving on a camping trip.? ?Hope they arrive OK!!!? ?I figured out how to mark them as "shipped" and send a note to each purchaser through Ebay.? ?With all the SPUR FIXES now being discovered, things are really shaping up around this little
transceiver to make it have much fewer spurious responses.? ?Delighted to see the group progress.? ?Each person proceeds at? their own pace, but the group moves forward huge amounts.
Cheers,
gordon KX4Z
|
Raj
The green display line is set at -43 dBc for a 33 dBm carrier level. None of the harmonics comes close to that level. The harmonics are higher than I would like but certainly acceptable. The test filters I used are not as good as the LPF supplied with the radio, once they are removed from the uBitx board. I am working to test a third party four filter board that will allow the uBitx filters to be transplanted to it. That will bring even these harmonics much lower.
WA8TOD
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>>Did you buffer all three outputs in your test?? And measure the buffered one only or all three?
All three with the 74AUP wich are one inverter per package.
>>I don't have access to 74LVT04 but used 3 x 74LVC04's (SOT single versions)
I didn't try the hex inverter part (6 inverters per package).? I suspect that needs testing?
as you run into the same issues of common busses on the die for power.? So that part
could (untested) also have cross talk.
Of course with fast rise/fall time transistions the layout should look like VHF/UHF
ground planes and top pour of ground copper.??Bypassing is also important and
watch for ground loops.
Allison
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My LPF boards are in, I'll post them to testers asap. I'll also order some 45mhz filter boards too...
73 Nick VK4PP
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Hi Raj As requested. Conditions: - 30 mVrms 1 KHz audio input - Power Out set to nominal +31 dBm which reads as 2 watts on my meter; set with RV1 - On board filter bypassed; external LPFs used as shown WA8TOD    
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Re: [BITX40] Replacement Raduino Board
perhaps you can replace either, arduino nano, interface if any to si5351 or si5351 itself. ?please see some videos. it is easy .
?with little effort you may also be able to load the firmware.
?If you want to change there are at least 4 types with our great members.
All the best regards sarma ?vu3zmv
On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 12:12 PM John Baines via Groups.Io <jbaines= [email protected]> wrote: Hi all,
Can anyone tell me how to obtain a replacement raduino board for my BitX40?
73
John
M0JBA
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[BITX40] Replacement Raduino Board
Hi all,
Can anyone tell me how to obtain a replacement raduino board for my BitX40?
73
John
M0JBA
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Warren,
Please share your spurs at 3.6, 7.2 and 14.2 with the same 100Mhz span.
Want to compare with mine.
Raj
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At 10-09-18, you wrote: My implementation of the filter with a single transformer. I encapsulated the transformer and the filter with heat shrink and mounted it as a single component. As before the power levels are standardized to approximately 2 watts for easy comparison.
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Allison, I would be interested in further info on your checks with the Buffer. Did you buffer all three outputs in your test?? And measure the buffered one only or all three? I don't have access to 74LVT04 but used 3 x 74LVC04's (SOT single versions) I have one Si5351 board with the buffers and a standard one to compare with. (Adafruit) I didn't see the big reduction in cross-talk levels. To the contrary.? I do get a very worthwhile output level improvement at the desired frequency per port, in the order of? plus 13-14dBm. Up from about +8. Pic shows the 12MHz output for example on SA, with and without buffers. The other outputs show a similar, worse, result. As you suggest though further BPF's? to each output would be desirable in any case. I'm wondering if the LVC parts are OK and also, if each buffer chip maybe, should be fed through its own L/C filter on the 3v3 lines. There may be cross-talk across the LVC04 supply lines, just like the Si5351. I do have a couple of 100nF on the supply. Set-up:- The SA is fed via a 30dB attenuator and the SA is adjusted for an offset of 30db to show the actual dBm levels on screen.  Shielding costs weight and money is no surprise, it also gets good results!? Using the 5351 as a single oscillator is actually not bad it when you try to use it for but LO and CIO the fun begins.? Solution use a buffer that presents a high impedance to the 5351.? Lower the circulating current at the outputs and the undesired cross-talk goes down. Band pass filter can limit the impact of this but buffering first really helps.? I tried a 74LVT04 and the spur was near gone (down in the HP8568B SA noise).? Simple fix as those are available as one inverter per sot package.? They are cheap too Mouser gets 37 cents for them for qant=1. So buffer then band pass you get even better result. Me I cut my teeth doing superhet radios starting in the late 60s and the first thing to overcome was unstable VFOs.? By time I started college I'd developed a deep understanding of PLL systems and had made one for a radio using TTL/CMOS and whatever was available in 1971.? So many issues of synthesized RF sources are seriously old hat. What shocked me is after doing research and experiments I looked at many designs and noted very few people understood this or paid attention to it.? Interesting thing is the only ones that? do not have issues either use the Sa612 (high input impedance) and the QSD mixers (cmos switch). Allison
On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 02:33 AM, ajparent1/KB1GMX wrote:
Shielding costs weight and money is no surprise, it also gets good results!? Using the 5351 as a single
oscillator is actually not bad it when you try to use it for but LO and CIO the fun begins.? Solution use
a buffer that presents a high impedance to the 5351.? Lower the circulating current at the outputs and
the undesired cross-talk goes down.
Band pass filter can limit the impact of this but buffering first really helps.? I tried a 74LVT04 and the
spur was near gone (down in the HP8568B SA noise).? Simple fix as those are available as one
inverter per sot package.? They are cheap too Mouser gets 37 cents for them for qant=1.
So buffer then band pass you get even better result.
Me I cut my teeth doing superhet radios starting in the late 60s and the first thing to overcome was
unstable VFOs.? By time I started college I'd developed a deep understanding of PLL systems and
had made one for a radio using TTL/CMOS and whatever was available in 1971.? So many issues
of synthesized RF sources are seriously old hat.
What shocked me is after doing research and experiments I looked at many designs and noted
very few people understood this or paid attention to it.? Interesting thing is the only ones that?
do not have issues either use the Sa612 (high input impedance) and the QSD mixers (cmos switch).
Allison
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Re: Surprised by generous and kind act
#bitx40
Please post a picture of it, we¡¯d love to see it.?
Joe kd2nfc
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On Sep 9, 2018, at 12:15 AM, Robert D. Bowers < n4fbz@...> wrote:
Today I was greatly and pleasantly surprised.? I'd mentioned that I was thinking about converting my BITX20 to 40 meters, and I'd related some stories of frustration with the local ham community (generosity and willingness to help others seems to be a rarity in this area).
When I got our mail, there was a package in it - with a BITX40!? The housing it was in is very attractive as far as my wife and I are concerned - and perfect for our car.? The neat part was that you could see the circuitry in it - and the case also would lend itself to portable operation!
I won't embarrass the sender, but I will say it came from another state.? For many years, I've insisted that there was no such thing as Karma... but this suggests otherwise!
To the sender (not named) - a big Thank you! from both of us, and (laugh) no worry about "paying forward" - we do things all the time like that, whenever we can (we may not have much money, but we do have skills and knowledge we share).? Generosity and helping others is not a big price for gifts like this - in our opinion!
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Re: Right-sided relay harmonic attempted fix for v3/4 ubitx
Well that is unfortunate. I am sure they will show up eventually but ¡°eventually¡± can be a pretty big window of time. ? Ripley KD8UYQ ? Sent from for Windows 10 ?
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From: Gordon GibbySent: Monday, September 10, 2018 9:38 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [BITX20] Right-sided relay harmonic attempted fix for v3/4 ubitx ? Well, we have an unexpected setback. The powers that be in my neighborhood concluded that our mailboxes were not uniform enough, so they spent our money and pulled up all of our existing mailboxes and put new ones in, .....without any house numbers. ? Things have to be done just so are they aren¡¯t happy, so none of us have even touched the new $500 mailboxes.? Not realizing that risk, I signed for DHL to deliver the $50 worth of printed circuit boards from? China without a signature, since I was expecting to be at work....no way to sign for them.? They were delivered all right, and even a day earlier than expected ¡ªbut nobody knows where!! ?About 230 this afternoon, somebody got the package (based on the tracking information). ?I have emailed everyone in my homeowners association hoping someone found the package..... If not, I guess I am out the $50 and will decide whether to re-order the order again. One step forward, two steps back? Hello Gordon, Good to hear. I am looking forward to purchasing a few. Ripley The words are mine but this iPad does what it will with them.
On Sep 9, 2018, at 4:58 PM, Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...> wrote:
Hi folks....
25 new blank boards for the simple-minded right-sided relay board fix are supposed to arrive from China on Tuesday.? ?If so, I'll re-enable? the Ebay advertisement and up the "count" (a learning experience) on Wednesday.? ?Was able to mail out five boards on Friday before leaving on a camping trip.? ?Hope they arrive OK!!!? ?I figured out how to mark them as "shipped" and send a note to each purchaser through Ebay.? ?With all the SPUR FIXES now being discovered, things are really shaping up around this little transceiver to make it have much fewer spurious responses.? ?Delighted to see the group progress.? ?Each person proceeds at? their own pace, but the group moves forward huge amounts.
Cheers,
gordon KX4Z
|
Ripley
Raj vu2zap
Nick VK4PP
