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Re: 6M power chain working
Rahul Srivastava
Hi!
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A DG MOSFET would certainly be an improvement. I had been thinking on only BJT lines.
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Rather than purchase them from mkt I normaly salvage them from old defuct TV tuners. The SMD BF989 or the? 2SK series works well in most cases.
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73
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Rahul VU3WJM
at a Norton amp as they are quieter for the same BJT
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Re: question re performance of bidirectional amplifier (corrected)
ajparent1
HI,
Catch up how? I have two 20m SSB home brew radios one being BITx and the BITx for 6M makes the fifth homebrew for that band alone. I can add a few tube design I've done as well for HF. I enjoy building and trying new ideas. Generally I find Ashar's design a very good one and remarkably reproducable. It represents a well executed minimalist design that doesn't require exotic components or as some of us call "unobtainium", those rare parts that only few can find. When built with good quality parts and a few minor mods the performance at 20m is excellent. That and it assembled in a few nights as ugly form with minimal startup problems is impressive. It's that reason I built the first BIX as 20M just to see it work. The second for 6M is an experiment and also because I want a small transceiver of modest power for portable ops. Besides building for VHF is interesting for it's own sake. Then I get into the wish list mods.. Allison KB1GMX --- In BITX20@..., "eternalesquire" <eternalsquire@c...> wrote: Thanks, Ashar! |
Re: 6M power chain working
ajparent1
Hello,
--- In BITX20@..., Rahul Srivastava <vu3wjm@y...> wrote: Hi!issue arises only due to varying characteristics of same devices available worldwide. Even within the USA there are poor spec parts problems and availability issues. Where noise figure is concerned under ideal components there is alimitation to what we can get in a negative feedback config. BITX nature and paralleling of the amps further effects the feedback and consequently affects the noise figure on the whole. Very true, for the IF stages the is not a big problem unless poor devices are used. The Q1/Q13 stage has more than adaquate noise figure for 20m or lower HF bands. For 15/17/12/10M bands I'd want a better device than the 2n3904/2n2222 in the recieve path a 2sc2570 or 2n5179 would do well there. At VHF we want better as the band noise is much lower. Another device that needs some attention is mixer driver Q7. At above 25mhz the 2n3904 is getting near it's limits though a 2n4124 worked well at 41mhz. Where BJT preamps are concerned a grounded base cofig providesbetter performance though at a lesser gain. A Norton noiseless preamp provides very low NF probably the best in BJT. Even the Icom IC7800 uses it. Grounded base BJT is stable but low gain and generally requires a propper input match for good noise performance. I've looked at a Norton amp as they are quieter for the same BJT though they tend to run lower gain. I can get a U310 common gate fet to a below 1db noise figure and 12db gain with less effort. However I'd need two stages to overcome the DBM and image filter losses. Based on earlier work with DBMs at 6m if I want a good NF and MDS a dual gate MOSFET with around 20db gain is successful. The idea is enough RF gain to overcome the image filter and DBM losses (typically -10 to -12DB) with a little extra. The only problem is that is a more difficult amplifier due to high gain. The positive is the IP for a dual gate mosfet is very good for the power required. Maybe we ought to look at the unique switching arrangement used inRU design Desna already under files for improved NF. I am considering splitting the path at the mixer with a optimized RX path to mirror the TX. It's a trivial thing to use a diode switch at that point. Building a second filter for the RX is trivial. Other considerations is balancing power consumption as this is for portable ops and making fit the intended package. That and keeping it simple to reproduce at least in part. The PLL I use may be a parts procurement problem for some. Allison |
Re: 6M power chain working
Rahul Srivastava
Hi!
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As far as BITX design is concerned it is well done. The IF gain issue arises only due to varying characteristics of same devices available worldwide.
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Where noise figure is concerned under ideal components there is a limitation to what we can get in a negative feedback config. BITX nature and paralleling of the amps further effects the feedback and consequently affects the noise figure on the whole.
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Where BJT preamps are concerned a grounded base cofig provides better performance though at a lesser gain. A Norton noiseless preamp provides?very low?NF probably the best in BJT. Even the Icom IC7800 uses it.
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Maybe we ought to look at the unique? switching arrangement used in RU design Desna? already under files for improved NF.
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Just my suggestions.
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73
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Rahul VU3WJM
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PS: BTW?, BITX and ARRL PP mosfet amp. is becoming big hit here in N India.
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ajparent1 wrote: This morning I tested the 6m power chain.? Results are very good Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com |
6M power chain working
ajparent1
This morning I tested the 6m power chain. Results are very good
with more power than expected. When integrated on the bench a two tone SSB signal nets 4.5W. I made the first local contact after connecting to the antenna. Reports were good as expected as I first tested with a local reciever before putting it on the air. A check on the spectrum analyser says harmonics and spurs at least -50dbc. That will require a bit of minor work to the output low pass filter get it in the range I consider clean. Also I think a bit of ALC for TX would help. The ciruit for that would be rectify the RF and use that voltage to throttle the gain of the microphone amplifier. This will help prevent overdrive. Reciever proved to be a bit weak during testing. The problem was not an IF gain issue. The 6m band requires a lower noise front end than HF. The changes were using a 2n5179 for Q1 initially. I also tried a MAR-6 MIMIC (20dbgain 3db noise figure), it did not improve matters and verified the bandpass filter loss was significant. Later I added a U310 JFET preamp before the bandpass filter. The loss through the filter (at 6m) is great enough that the noise figure of the reciever is compromized without 12db of gain before it. Measured MDS was -130dbm with the preamp without it it was a very weak -118Dbm. For 6M operation _my_ goal is -137Dbm or better. Either way this will recieve some work as there is to much wide band gain before the crystal filter. This is important on 6M because of the sometimes very strong signals that appear during band openings. I also have commercial television broacast less than 10 miles away on US CH-2 (56mhz) so intermodulation performance is important. A better layout would be preselector filter, RF amp, image filter, then mixer. The preselector filter would be low loss and the image reject filter would be the higher order bandpass. The revised topology would permit applying AGC to the RF amp if a dual gate MOSFET such as 2sk122 or BFR988 is used. I am also considering cascode MPF102 JFET. Experiments with the mixer indicate the two transformer doubly balanced works better at 6m and substituting a commercial DBM (Minicircuits TUF-1) gave similar performance. Transformers were wound using two hole ferrite balun cores using 6 turns of #32 wire x3 (trifilar). Diodes used were 1n4148 type matched for same forward voltage at 1mA. This makes the second operational BITx. I need to fine tune the design for best performance on 6M and package it so it's portable. I tend to be fussy about reciever performance and transmitted signal quality but so far this version is behaving like the 20m version allowing for the differences needed for 6M operation. Allison KB1GMX |
Re: Bidirectional amplifier, DC measurements.
ajparent1
--- In BITX20@..., "eternalesquire" <eternalsquire@c...>
wrote: Allison,Not useful. With R set to 12V from an external power supply.If you'd used a accurate voltmeter or DVM you would see more like 2.7V emitter and 3.4V on the base and that small difference can be telling. From BFO through an attenuator, I am applying 10.7 Mhz signal of25/5=5, way low. for 5MV in I'd expect 100mV or more. I get no amplification whatever when power is removed or reversed,What happens if you reverse the signal (TX direction) same? Except for the AC gain, this appears to be a properly DC biased smallcheck. I do question scope calibration from range to range and at that frequency. Me too. I'm building my second and it's mostly a straight up deal. Sure I have made mods and used ferrite loaded rather than washers for the transformers but those are not going to affect the amps. I may add that I've built a large number of these style (RC feedback) amps and they work or are broken. the latter is often due to bad part or the occasional use of 100ohm where I meant to pull 10ohm from the parts bin. Just for reference I haywaired that stage on the desk to try it standalone. Used 2n3904s as they were handy, MSP2222 and 2N2222 have roughly the same DC beta so the biasing will be similar. With Q3/Q11 biasing (470ohm emitter reistor) at 10mhz I got a voltage gain of just under 7.2 ( IE: 5mV in and 36 out). Voltages from ground were emitter 2.4V, Base 3.1V, Collector 10.0V and other side of diode 10.7V. I was using nominal 13.8V supply for this. When I changed the biasing to Q1/Q13 (220 ohm) I got a bit more gain 8.4 as measured. Gain fall off at lower current is not unusual and the overall design of BITx is to not use a lot of RF gain as it favors stability and resistance to overload. The later is important as theres no AGC in the base design so it must handle big signals without distortion. So all in all those MPS2222s are usable but maybe not the best choice. I used a 50 ohm loaded scope probe and precision 50ohm step attenuator for the tests. So the gains are likely lower than in circuit as a result of the 50ohm loading. By calculation and eyeball the numner I got numbers look right for that loading at 10mhz. Allison Kb1GMX |
Re: question re performance of bidirectional amplifier (corrected)
ajparent1
Hi,
I've found the MSP2222, PN2222, 2n2222A to be interchangeable assuming good parts. However, depending on the source and how they got in to the product stream they can be out of spec devices. A good 2N2222a has an Ft of not less than 350mhz and good gain at 5ma Ic. The 2n3904 however is a little quieter and slightly better gain even though the Ft is the same. A 2n5179 or other VHF device will not achieve much more gain as the amplifiers are of RC feedback type and component values set the gain not the transistor used unless the transistor is poor quality or simply not reasonable for the frequency in use. I have some bad commercial experience with parts that just were not up to spec. I had this once back around '78 with MPS1764s, bought a bag of them from Motorola and tested them with 100% yeild to spec. Purchasing bought another 1000 from a cheaper source and the failure rate was 25% to spec. Showed Motorola and they wanted to know where they came from. Seems they were purchased as known offspec for a non critical app the excess were being resold as full spec. I've been similary burned with 2n3866s and 2n5109s (low Ft and beta), 2n5179s (noisy and low Ft) to name a few. So when talking parts like transitors simple DC tests do not tell all. Measured in an RF test circuit it's easy to spot. Allison KB1GMX --- In BITX20@..., Arv Evans <arvevans@e...> wrote: Hito be quite low. After substituting a handfull of 2N3904s my gain became muchbetter. replaced a 2N2222 with a 2N3904.the IF & RF sections of the BITX. There seems to be some merit in that idea.2N2222s that were purchased from DigiKey were all good in the BITX but those thatwere purchased from another source (100 each 2N2222s for $1.50 USD) showvery poor HF gain, but they are just fine for audio applications.so I filter.put it back. <eternalsquire@c...> schematic as I> RX the> > was doing it, every trace is accounted for. > same? It could be possible one transistor is shorted collector to |
Re: question re performance of bidirectional amplifier (corrected)
ajparent1
--- In BITX20@..., "eternalesquire" <eternalsquire@c...>
wrote: 1) Checked. These are 10 ohm resistors. I've made 2 stages so farOk, there must be something... 2) I had been using 0.1 microfarad (value code 104) for all of theOk, 3) On a hunch that this was a bad type of transistor, I substitutedShould have either made no difference or better. Worse is totally unespected! I strongly suspect that whatever mistake I am making, I am making itcrystal filter. When you say 440 did you really mean 470? Thats what was on the original schematics. Were the original values wrong?No they are well chosen. Should I make DC voltage readings and show them to you?Ok, just the preselector stage. Use the same component call outs (IE: Q1 and Q13) as I will use the publish drawings. Allison KB1GMX |
Re: question re performance of bidirectional amplifier (corrected)
Arv Evans
Hi
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On my first BITX (a BITX20) I used PN2222s and also found the gain to be quite low. After substituting a handfull of 2N3904s my gain became much better. Another early BITX builder found that his VFO was unstable, until he replaced a 2N2222 with a 2N3904. There have been recent suggestions that VHF transistors be used in the IF & RF sections of the BITX. There seems to be some merit in that idea. It seems that some providers of 2N2222 & PN2222 maybe assume that any transistor that is NPN and not something else, is a 2N2222. My 2N2222s that were purchased from DigiKey were all good in the BITX but those that were purchased from another source (100 each 2N2222s for $1.50 USD) show very poor HF gain, but they are just fine for audio applications. Arv K7HKL _._ On Sunday 21 August 2005 21:28, eternalesquire wrote:
1) Checked.? These are 10 ohm resistors.?? I've made 2 stages so far |
Re: question re performance of bidirectional amplifier (corrected)
Ashhar Farhan
I dont see the problem at all.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
If you inject a 3mv signal, and you get a 20mv signal, the circuit is working just fine. here is how, you need to check the power gain, not the voltage gain. Now, a voltage gain of 6.6 translates to 6.6 x 6.6 = 44.4 power gain. (assuming that the input and output impedances are the same). That is smack down 16db as promised. - farhan On Mon, 22 Aug 2005, eternalesquire wrote:
1) Checked. These are 10 ohm resistors. I've made 2 stages so far |
Re: Bidirectional amplifier, DC measurements.
Rahul Srivastava
Hi!?
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Just keep in mind 2N2222 metal and PN2222 plastic have different lead configration.
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Its C B E? L to R for metal where as it is E B C??? ?L to R for plastic when viewed from front. Leads going down.
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73
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Rahul VU3WJM
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eternalesquire wrote: Allison,
NEW - crystal clear PC to PC |
Bidirectional amplifier, DC measurements.
eternalesquire
Allison,
Here are my AC and DC measurements for the Q3 amplifier circuit. I had used a scope to measure rather than my voltmeter, so measurements are eyeballed. With R set to 12V from an external power supply. Anode of diode is 9 V Cathode of diode/collector of Q3 = 8 V Base = 3 V Emitter = 3 V (probably a tad less due to BE voltage drop) From BFO through an attenuator, I am applying 10.7 Mhz signal of 5mV pp seen by scope injected at junction of input capacitors 25 mV pp same frequency seen at junction of output capacitors. I get no amplification whatever when power is removed or reversed, which is what we want. Except for the AC gain, this appears to be a properly DC biased small signal transistor amplifier. On the other sets of amplifier circuits, I see 50 mV pp at junction of output capacitors. Could it be that I am using the wrong techniques to view the signal with my scope, rather than there being a bug in the circuit? I'm halfway tempted to try putting this circuit in LTSpice as a sanity check. Scratching my head in confusion, The Eternal Squire |
FA: Matched SSB/CW sets of 10.7 Mhz IF crystals.
eternalesquire
Hi,
I just won on Ebay a large lot of 10.7 Mhz Crystals. If anyone wants to use this intermediate frequency I can provide a matched set of 4 plus a 5th for BFO. This IF would be useful primarly in ITU region 2, where WWB makes it impossible to use 10 Mhz as the IF. I am willing to sell matched sets on the following terms: 1) I will only sell to people in North or South America, exclusive of Cuba and other countries that US citizens are forbidden to sell to. 2) You will be getting 4 matched crystals, plus a fifth unmatched crystal for BFO. 3) Before you send money I will send you an invoice containing exact measurements for each crystal, including the BFO crystal. This invoice also contains the exact cost of postage to your destination depending on available carrier. You are responsible for your own customs duties, import fees, and excise taxes. 4) Each crystal in the package of 5 will be packed in its own bag marked with its frequency measurement. 5) SSB matching will be within 100 hz of average frequency for matched set of 4 where each crystal is measured in series with a 33 pF silver mica capacitor having 20% tolerance. 6) CW matching will be withing 30 hz of average frequency for matched set of 4 where each crystal is measured in series with a 33 pF silver mica capacitor having 20% tolerance. 7) Each crystal matched to SSB specifications would cost $2.00 USD, so a set of 4 will cost you $8.00 USD. 8) Each crystal matched to CW specifications would cost $5.00 USD, so a set of 4 will cost you $20.00 USD. 9) Your unmatched BFO crystal comes at no extra cost. 10) Payment shall be made by PayPal, US postal money order, or International Reply Coupons. Personal checks not accepted. No exceptions. I don't believe this is an unreasonable cost for my time and labor to handmatch crystals, to spare somebody else the same effort of having to buy a lot and sift through them with a test oscillator and frequency counter. If the majority of you disagree, please tell me and I will reconsider. Thanks, The Eternal Squire |
Re: question re performance of bidirectional amplifier (corrected)
eternalesquire
1) Checked. These are 10 ohm resistors. I've made 2 stages so far
and had double checked all values of resistors going in. 2) I had been using 0.1 microfarad (value code 104) for all of the capacitors of these units. 3) On a hunch that this was a bad type of transistor, I substituted a 2N2222A transistor. Gain was acutally worse, X6 rather than X10, so I put it back. I strongly suspect that whatever mistake I am making, I am making it consistently. Now, the original schematic specifies 220 Ohm emitter bias resistors in parallel with the emitter degeneration leg, for 2 of these units. A 440 Ohm resistor is specified for the unit after the crystal filter. Were the original values wrong? Should I make DC voltage readings and show them to you? Thanks, The Eternal Squire --- In BITX20@..., "ajparent1" <kb1gmx@a...> wrote: Edited. inline comments.error.
|
Re: question re performance of bidirectional amplifier (corrected)
ajparent1
Edited. inline comments.
--- In BITX20@..., "eternalesquire" <eternalsquire@c...> wrote: I wired up a second stage and checked it against the schematic as IAnother thought.. One possible is that the 10 ohm emitter resistor (in series with capacitor) is not 10 ohms! It is sometimes easy to get 100ohm and 10 ohm by error. Rough calculation suggests that might be the error. Another source of error is if any of the capacitors are not the correct value (too small). I'd also check the transistors used. Is the gain going TX and RX the same? It could be possible one transistor is shorted collector to base internally. Just thinking out loud. Allison KB1GMX |
Re: question re performance of bidirectional amplifier (corrected)
ajparent1
--- In BITX20@..., "eternalesquire" <eternalsquire@c...>
wrote: Allison,Ok, just curious. Either those are very poor quality versions of MPS2222 (defective lot?) or something is very wrong. Could it be measurement error? I wired up a second stage and checked it against the schematic as IThat works well you unless you use really long leads. I do groundplane AKA "dead bug", Ugly or Manhattan style mostly as I can fabricate faster than creating a PCB first. Also ground loops are unheard of with deadbug. I've used this method to frequencies up to 1296mhz! Allison Kb1GMX
|
New file uploaded to BITX20
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the BITX20 group. File : /EGR/BITX_rev_C.zip Uploaded by : eternalesquire <eternalsquire@...> Description : BITX20 Engineering Diagrams, Rev C, 21 August 2005. Rev B diagrams + GIFS You can access this file at the URL: To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: Regards, eternalesquire <eternalsquire@...> |
Re: question re performance of bidirectional amplifier (corrected)
eternalesquire
Allison,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
No, I intend this to be used as 20M. I just use a colorburst crystal oscillator for signal tracing, and I used a scope to compare the incoming and outgoing signals to measure gain. I wired up a second stage and checked it against the schematic as I was doing it, every trace is accounted for. I had used ground-plane component support construction. Could that technique reduce the gain? --- In BITX20@..., "ajparent1" <kb1gmx@a...> wrote:
Inline and edited. |
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