The issue with resonators and such is that they tend to wander.
This can sometimes on a few radios put a birdie right in the middle of an IF passband.
The uBitx IF got moved from 12 to 11mhz because of a particularly nasty case of this.
Jerry
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On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 03:12 PM, Shirley Dulcey KE1L wrote:
Reliable operation of an asynchronous serial link does not require a highly accurate clock; it only needs to be within 1% or so. That's easily met by a ceramic resonator. The CH340C is probably not even using one of those; it's using a reference on the silicon itself, perhaps helped out by a factory-programmed code for the specific chip. That's how the internal clock that is available on many microcontrollers works, including the ATMega328P which can be run without an external frequency reference.
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TL:DR version: don't buy a Nano Every to use in your Raduino?right now unless?you are prepared to do some software development.
The ATMega 4809 is not an ARM processor. It's still an 8 bit AVR. It does have more RAM and flash memory than the ATMega328P does. The pinout of the 4809 is different from the 328P (it's not just a matter of having more pins), but the layout of the Nano Every board gets around that and puts the pins back where you expect them. Code changes may be needed; anything that uses libraries that come with the Arduino IDE is already covered, but the peripherals are different so any code that talks to ports directly or uses third party libraries is likely to need rewriting.
It's not quite a drop-in replacement, but adapting the Raduino?for the Nano Every should not be difficult in most applications. I don't know if anybody has done it yet for the?Raduino; until that happens, I don't recommend?that anybody make the switch unless they plan to do that work. The advantage would be the ability to use a larger sketch without the need to make the more extensive code changes needed to switch to another microcontroller such as the Teensy. There are two notable hardware differences that can affect compatibility?in some applications: PWM is not available on D11, and the USB serial interface is now completely separate from the serial interface on RX0 and TX1 so you can use both at the same time. (The USB to serial is Serial, the?other is Serial1.)
The Nano Every uses a different chip for USB to serial conversion: a pre-programmed?ATSAMD11D14A Cortex-M0 ARM processor. Ironically, that's more powerful in some ways than the board's primary CPU. The driver on Windows gets installed when you install the Arduino IDE; if you have an old version you may need to update it.
Here is a link to a blog post that talks about the hardware differences:?
Hmm,? that's a genuine "Arduino Nano Every".
Has anyone tried that on a Raduino yet?
I think it could be made to work, but may require some changes to the source code.
This might be a better web link:??
Mouser part number is??782-ABX00028
This board is based on the ATMega4809, which is an Arm Cortex M0+ 32 bit processor, a 20mhz clock.
Whereas the uBitx comes with a clone of the original Arduino Nano, which has an ATMega328P,
which is a much less advanced 8 bit processor.
With 48k of Flash and 6k of RAM it has somewhat more than the 328P, though it's possible
that the Arm Cortex M0+ uses it up more quickly.
This genuine Arduino will likely have better quality control than the Nano Clones.
The pin out of this module appears to be exactly the same as the older Nanos.
Price at $11 is very reasonable.
So it is possible that it could plug directly into the Raduino, you recompile the Raduino source code
for the new processor under the Arduino IDE, and it all just works.
I am guessing there will be more work than that.
For example, the old code might run faster on the ARM, and this might expose a timing bug.
Or, even though it has SPI and I2C and UART and Power and GND and digital and analog pins
in all the right spots, there might be some minor difference about how an analog pin works
that hangs things up.? ?
Jerry, KE7ER
On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 02:22 PM, Will B wrote:
This is my first post to this group, and I'm more of a Raspberry Pi guy myself, so please be gentle. :-)
Would this work as a replacement?
|
Re: Ideas for "bulletproofing" the uBitx
Not having to insulate the RD's tab from ground is definitely a win.
> the RD generates less heat per watt than the IRF510
Are you saying the RD is significantly more efficient?
Do you have numbers?
Or perhaps this is your way of pointing out that heat transfer from the die is somewhat slower for a given delta-T.
> Less drive per watt out is good, 20 watts if you need it at 13.8V.
I think you will have to do a significant redesign of the uBitx to get 20W out at 13.8v,
starting with the transformer at T11.
Considerably more involved than just swapping in some RD's.
I can believe that less drive is needed, but I'm not sure how big a factor this is.
I doubt it is terribly significant.?
The uBitx final is limited in part by how much power is available from the driver stage,?
but those who have tried swapping in RD's in the past have not seen much improvement.
Has anybody done measurements of drive required for RD's vs IRF510's from 3.5 to 30mhz?
The primary advantage of an IRF510 is that it doesn't cost $25 (with shipping) when you blow a pair.
There are disadvantages, but they can be designed around.
Jerry, KE7ER
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On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 02:47 PM, Slurm wrote:
Seems for continuous digital operation the RD might be preferred just for the fact that you can bolt it's tab directly to an aluminum radio's case,, giving a very large heat sink, add to that , the RD generates less heat per watt than the IRF510.? Those two things together seem important for digital operation and heat concerns in general.
Less drive per watt out is good, 20 watts if you need it at 13.8V. Nice that the Ubitx already has holes in the PCB for the RD. Being fairly new to the tech of radio I'd have to study the changes to the output transformer and ask do you have to change the output transformer if you keep the supply voltage to the finals at the 13.8V??
Comes down to what people need or want.? For any heat sink, get a big one, and get the best heat transfer paste you can find.? You can also run a fan, 24Volt fans run at 12v are quiet. I've never used a water cooled heat sink on a computer and ask those who know how sturdy and reliable they are, also how much power consumption and noise is acceptable.
Thanks for this discussion.
Slurm?
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Reliable operation of an asynchronous serial link does not require a highly accurate clock; it only needs to be within 1% or so. That's easily met by a ceramic resonator. The CH340C is probably not even using one of those; it's using a reference on the silicon itself, perhaps helped out by a factory-programmed code for the specific chip. That's how the internal clock that is available on many microcontrollers works, including the ATMega328P which can be run without an external frequency reference.
Banggood claims their Nano Clones to be "improved", though I doubt this matters to us.
Banggood gives this rather cryptic comment regarding the CH340 USB chip that is used:
####################
Chip: CH340C/G Random delivery?(CH340B is the update version of CH340G, CH340B comes with crystal, but CH340G doesn't)
Note:??Improved USB chip for speed and stability using WIN7/WIN8.
####################
Here's something a bit more coherent from:? ??
Parts of that document look like a datasheet, others look like commentary about a bunch of different parts.
I have seen a CH340 datasheet in English, but perhaps some of the newer variants only
have datasheets in Chinese?? Anyways, here's the key passage from that document:
####################
Model differences: CH340C, CH340E and CH340B have built-in crystal, no external crystal; CH340B also has built-in EEPROM used to configure the serial number,etc.Some functions can be customized. CH340R provides reverse polarity TXD and MODEM signals.
####################
So perhaps banggood is now selling a mix of parts, some have the old CH340G chip with an external crystal,
some have a newer chip (either CH340B or CH340C) with the crystal inside the CH340 SOIC16 package?
Or perhaps they are now selling a mix of CH340B and CH340C, both of which have a crystal inside?
The CH340 chip is the 16 pin SOIC on the left side of the second photo in the banggood webpage.
A crystal can be seen just above and near the left end of the CH340 chip,
a long yellowish rectangle with traces to pins 7 and 8 of the CH340.
So the photo probably shows an older Nano Clone using the CH340G chip.
My understanding was that the Nano Clones are all using the cheap ceramic resonators
(12mhz on the CH340, 16mhz for the ATMega382P), not quartz crystals like the original Arduino Nano did.
I'm guessing what's inside a CH340B or CH340C is also a resonator of some sort,
so not a particularly stable or accurate source of 12mhz.
Jerry, KE7ER
On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 08:43 AM, Jerry Gaffke wrote:
Scot,
I doubt they have changed.
Perhaps you are looking at the bottom side of your board,
and the top side of the various product offerings?
Be sure to buy a Nano that does not already have the pins soldered,
because the raduino wants them installed upside down.
This webpage has images of top and bottom of the board:
??
Jerry, KE7ER
|
Hmm,? that's a genuine "Arduino Nano Every".
Has anyone tried that on a Raduino yet?
I think it could be made to work, but may require some changes to the source code.
This might be a better web link:??
Mouser part number is??782-ABX00028
This board is based on the ATMega4809, which is an Arm Cortex M0+ 32 bit processor, a 20mhz clock.
Whereas the uBitx comes with a clone of the original Arduino Nano, which has an ATMega328P,
which is a much less advanced 8 bit processor.
With 48k of Flash and 6k of RAM it has somewhat more than the 328P, though it's possible
that the Arm Cortex M0+ uses it up more quickly.
This genuine Arduino will likely have better quality control than the Nano Clones.
The pin out of this module appears to be exactly the same as the older Nanos.
Price at $11 is very reasonable.
So it is possible that it could plug directly into the Raduino, you recompile the Raduino source code
for the new processor under the Arduino IDE, and it all just works.
I am guessing there will be more work than that.
For example, the old code might run faster on the ARM, and this might expose a timing bug.
Or, even though it has SPI and I2C and UART and Power and GND and digital and analog pins
in all the right spots, there might be some minor difference about how an analog pin works
that hangs things up.? ?
Jerry, KE7ER
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On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 02:22 PM, Will B wrote:
This is my first post to this group, and I'm more of a Raspberry Pi guy myself, so please be gentle. :-)
Would this work as a replacement?
|
There are the new Nano Every and Nano 33 from Arduino. Those are different, and are not 100% compatible with the earlier Nano. You don't want either of those unless you are prepared to make changes to the code.
Just about all of the clone Nanos you can buy now are not identical to the original Nano from Arduino; they use the CH340C or CH340G USB to serial chip instead of the FTDI FT232RL that is used on the official boards.
Aside from markings on the chip, the difference is easy to spot because the CH340 is a smaller chip with fewer pins.
The change is for cost reasons; you can buy an entire Nano clone for less than the price of that FTDI chip from a distributor. It's not an issue for most users; current versions of Windows automatically download the CH340 driver?the first time you plug one in, and Linux and macOS come with it built-in. (If you're still a Windows XP holdout you'll have to download and install the driver yourself, and I don't remember whether Windows 7 can automatically download the driver.)
The CH340G is a USB to serial chip from China. It costs 30 to 40 cents, while an FTDI chip is $4.50 in quantity one and $2.65 even if you buy 1,000. The CH340C is a newer variant that reduces costs even further; the chip costs about the same but has a built-in frequency reference, eliminating the need for a crystal. Many of the clone makers have now switched to the CH340C, but you may still find some with the CH340G. The ones with the CH340C won't have a crystal on the back of the board.
The clones look mostly the same on the top side (aside from trademark graphics) with one exception; most of them have an oval shaped reset button rather than the round button used on the official boards from arduino.cc
The BITX line has always?used non-official Nanos; the official ones are too expensive for the low cost goal of the project. But if you have one that's old enough it could have a slightly different design of board.
A Nano without the voltage regulator would not be a fully compatible replacement. It would only be suitable in applications where the board is powered by the USB port. I have never seen one for sale. However, I did find one blog that shows a Nano clone with the regulator removed; the owner used a boost regulator and a LiPo battery to power it.
Here are pictures of the back of a standard Nano, and of the CH340G variant with the regulator removed. The layout of the back is substantially different on the CH340G version.Although the chip markings on the second picture are barely visible, you can tell it's a CH340G rather than a CH340C because the board has a crystal.
Looking to get some more Nano's, however when shopping on Amazon, E-Bay and others, They look different. Don't see the 5 volt regulator for 1 among offer things. Have the Nano's changed? and if so, can tey be used in my current V6?
Thanks for any info, Scot WB7AVU
|
That's a Nano Every. Not suitable as a direct replacement. It uses a different microcontroller and requires some code changes.
Greetings!
This is my first post to this group, and I'm more of a Raspberry Pi guy myself, so please be gentle. :-)
Would this work as a replacement?
Will B - AF7EC
|
Re: Ideas for "bulletproofing" the uBitx
Seems for continuous digital operation the RD might be preferred just for the fact that you can bolt it's tab directly to an aluminum radio's case,, giving a very large heat sink, add to that , the RD generates less heat per watt than the IRF510.? Those two things together seem important for digital operation and heat concerns in general.
Less drive per watt out is good, 20 watts if you need it at 13.8V. Nice that the Ubitx already has holes in the PCB for the RD. Being fairly new to the tech of radio I'd have to study the changes to the output transformer and ask do you have to change the output transformer if you keep the supply voltage to the finals at the 13.8V??
Comes down to what people need or want.? For any heat sink, get a big one, and get the best heat transfer paste you can find.? You can also run a fan, 24Volt fans run at 12v are quiet. I've never used a water cooled heat sink on a computer and ask those who know how sturdy and reliable they are, also how much power consumption and noise is acceptable.
Thanks for this discussion.
Slurm?
|
Re: Problems with connecting to computer for digital
In HRD? - make sure you check the DTR box. That will reset the Arduino in the uBitx and it should connect and communicate ok.??
Other programs (WSJTX, and FLDIGI) don't expose this setting.? I find that AFTER I run and close HRD the other programs connect OK.??
There definitely seems to be a long standing issue with the way HAMLIB (the code inside many of the digital programs) interacts with Arduino based programs.
Dean
|
Greetings!
This is my first post to this group, and I'm more of a Raspberry Pi guy myself, so please be gentle. :-)
Would this work as a replacement?
Will B - AF7EC
|
Banggood claims their Nano Clones to be "improved", though I doubt this matters to us.
Banggood gives this rather cryptic comment regarding the CH340 USB chip that is used:
####################
Chip: CH340C/G Random delivery?(CH340B is the update version of CH340G, CH340B comes with crystal, but CH340G doesn't)
Note:??Improved USB chip for speed and stability using WIN7/WIN8.
####################
Here's something a bit more coherent from:? ??
Parts of that document look like a datasheet, others look like commentary about a bunch of different parts.
I have seen a CH340 datasheet in English, but perhaps some of the newer variants only
have datasheets in Chinese?? Anyways, here's the key passage from that document:
####################
Model differences: CH340C, CH340E and CH340B have built-in crystal, no external crystal; CH340B also has built-in EEPROM used to configure the serial number,etc.Some functions can be customized. CH340R provides reverse polarity TXD and MODEM signals.
####################
So perhaps banggood is now selling a mix of parts, some have the old CH340G chip with an external crystal,
some have a newer chip (either CH340B or CH340C) with the crystal inside the CH340 SOIC16 package?
Or perhaps they are now selling a mix of CH340B and CH340C, both of which have a crystal inside?
The CH340 chip is the 16 pin SOIC on the left side of the second photo in the banggood webpage.
A crystal can be seen just above and near the left end of the CH340 chip,
a long yellowish rectangle with traces to pins 7 and 8 of the CH340.
So the photo probably shows an older Nano Clone using the CH340G chip.
My understanding was that the Nano Clones are all using the cheap ceramic resonators
(12mhz on the CH340, 16mhz for the ATMega382P), not quartz crystals like the original Arduino Nano did.
I'm guessing what's inside a CH340B or CH340C is also a resonator of some sort,
so not a particularly stable or accurate source of 12mhz.
Jerry, KE7ER
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On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 08:43 AM, Jerry Gaffke wrote:
Scot,
I doubt they have changed.
Perhaps you are looking at the bottom side of your board,
and the top side of the various product offerings?
Be sure to buy a Nano that does not already have the pins soldered,
because the raduino wants them installed upside down.
This webpage has images of top and bottom of the board:
??
Jerry, KE7ER
|
if radio seems functional I am concerned BFO still may be off - I tuned mine by ear but using an audio FFT program might be easier - but try by ear.?
the 40m band should be full of RTTY signals now with a contest going on.? if they are heard but also high pitched - its a sign BFO is way off.?
trust its something small
Curt
|
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of
Jerry Gaffke via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2021 9:43 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Different Nano's
?
Scot,
I doubt they have changed.
Perhaps you are looking at the bottom side of your board,
and the top side of the various product offerings?
Be sure to buy a Nano that does not already have the pins soldered,
because the raduino wants them installed upside down.
This webpage has images of top and bottom of the board:
??
Jerry, KE7ER
|
Scot,
I doubt they have changed.
Perhaps you are looking at the bottom side of your board,
and the top side of the various product offerings?
Be sure to buy a Nano that does not already have the pins soldered,
because the raduino wants them installed upside down.
This webpage has images of top and bottom of the board:
??
Jerry, KE7ER
|
Re: Ideas for "bulletproofing" the uBitx
Fully agree that the IRF510 is O.K for amateur radio use. It can do the job and is very cheap.
Only one word of warning.... buy them from a reputable source that has branded devices. There are a lot of "fake" or sub-standard IRF510's around. There are some very cheap 70w RF amps on fleabay. The IRF510's they supply with the kit may even have the part numbers ground off. Throw away the supplied IRF510's and buy some known good ones, the rest of the components in the kit are O.K.
Reg ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? G4NFR?
|
Looking to get some more Nano's, however when shopping on Amazon, E-Bay and others, They look different. Don't see the 5 volt regulator for 1 among offer things. Have the Nano's changed? and if so, can tey be used in my current V6?
Thanks for any info, Scot WB7AVU
|
Re: uBitx V6 firmware 1.2 upgrade
Evan
Just a follow up. I did it and and put it on the SD card ubitx_28_E.tft . This is just atrial run and it seems to have work OK!
I will play with it some more.
Thanks.
73
Jon
|
Re: uBitx V6 firmware 1.2 upgrade
Evan
I thank you! I will followup if OK. I have formatted the SD card fat32.
Jon
|
Re: uBitx V6 firmware 1.2 upgrade
Jon, It is the UBITX_Netion_GUI_V3.ZIP download and unzip the archive.? There is both a 2.8" Basic and 2.8" Enhanced tft and HMI files.? The tft are the already compiled files to transfer with a microSD card. there is a filenaminfo.txt file in the archive that explains the naming convention:
Rule :
? ubitx + _ + Option1 + LCD Type + Option2 + .hmi
?
Option : Default => empty
? ? ? ? ? ?Template => Temp
?
LCD Type : 2.4" => 24
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?2.8" => 28
? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3.2" => 32
?
Option : Basic => empty
? ? ? ? ? ?Enhanced => _E
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
?
Example : Basic 2.4 Basic Model (NX3224T024_011)
? ? ? ? ? ? ?ubtix_24.HMI? (source code)
? ? ? ? ? ? ?ubtix_24.tft? ?(precompiled)
? ? ? ? ? ? ?ubtix_Temp24.HMI? (Template file)
?
Example : Basic 2.8 Enhanced Model (NX3224K028_011)
? ? ? ? ? ? ?ubtix_28_E.HMI (source code)
? ? ? ? ? ? ?ubtix_28_E.tft? ?(precompiled)
? ? ? ? ? ? ?ubtix_Temp28_E.HMI? (Template file)
73 Evan AC9TU
|
Thanks Rafael and Curt,
I followed the procedure in on your recommendation, but the result is the same. On certain frequencies I can hear high pitched sound but nothing else, not even CW transmission.
I only use a 15ft wire as an antenna, I should probably have a suitable antenna and try the procedure again.
I'll keep you posted.
Thank you very much for your help and suggestions.
Alex KK4FAA
|
Shirley Dulcey KE1L