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Given the recent discussions about NVC, I am wondering if
mindfulness and unschooling are compatible.
I think mindfulness and unschooling are indeed compatible.
For children under 5 years of age, NVC would look like attachment
parenting for infants and for toddlers, to help identify their
feelings.
I'm not sure what you mean "to help identify their feelings." For
the parents to identify their children's feelings? For children to
identify their own feelings?
It doesn't take NVC to help kids figure out what their feelings are.
(NVC does fall into mindfulness. It works clinically for adults to
name their feelings with needs and request. I received
clarification on this the other day by a few NVC educators.)
Do you mean NVC works clinically for adults? Or mindfulness works
clinically for adults? Or that NVC "does fall into mindfulness"?
I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean.
"Mindfulness" is generally considered to be a translation of
Buddhist practice (in different languages: Pali "sati," Tibetan
"trenpa, Chinese "nian"). However, the term been around a long time
in the West. From Wikipedia, with footnotes: **The English term
mindfulness has been in use for centuries, long predating its use in
the Buddhist context. The OED defines it as "The state or quality of
being mindful; attention; regard", with obsolete meanings of
"memory" and "intention, purpose". This word was first recorded as
myndfulness in 1530 (Palsgrave translates French pensee) , as
mindfulnesse in 1561, and mindfulness in 1817.**
Mindfulness also includes mediation and yoga.
Mindfulness can be cultivated through meditation and yoga,
certainly, but the practice of mindfulness itself does not "include"
meditation and yoga.
I am asking because I know mindfulness benefits brain development
and emotional intelligence.
I'm a bit confused about what you are asking or trying to get at.
It seems (and I could be wrong!) that you want to say that NVC
(being an apparent practice of mindfulness) is superior to
unschooling, which, to you, is incompatible with mindfulness.
Robin B.
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For children under 5 years of age, NVC would look like attachment
parenting for infants and for toddlers, to help identify their
feelings.
I think what Joyce said really clears this up--many of the ideas are compatible, and parts of one practice or philosophy can resonate well with others, but that the goals are different. The main thing that makes radical unschooling work is to really key into our children so that we can support and facilitate their learning and growth in their whole lives--including emotional. NVC can support that for some people--helping to give them more insight into their own emotional states so that they are more able to empathize with their children. But it's not necessary for everyone--some parents don't need those skills, and it can end up being another layer that gets in the way rather than helping. Trying to impose someone else's (in this case, Marshall Rosenberg's) system can overlay their own and inhibit the natural connection they already have with their kids. Some people may get a lot out of it, and it can help improve their relationships, but others are awkwardly trying to use a script in a way that feels like ill-fitting clothes. Joanna
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I wonder if the OP isn't talking about the book "Everyday Blessings: The Inner Work of Mindful Parenting" by the Kabat-Zinns:
If so, it might have been helpful to mention that.....
I read a few chapters of the book a few years ago and put it down for the same reason I never considered NVC a useful tool in relating to my daughter. Too much script! Too many things to think about that actually took me *away* from focusing on her in the moment.
Geesh. All this crap. I'm sorry, I'm in a foul mood.
Why can't we just trust ourselves to trust our kids?
B
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-=-Why can't we just trust ourselves to trust our kids?-=-
Without discussing unschooling anymore, you mean?
I trust myself to trust my kids pretty well, but some people don't,
and they like the discussion. :-)
Sandra
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---Without discussing unschooling anymore, you mean?-----
No, without having to add all kinds of other "isms" or "nessess" to the equation.
I realize my last post wasn't very generous, and I apologize. I just had a long harrowing conversation with a friend who wants to practice all kinds of lovely philosophies but can't, for even the shortest amount of time, look at her children and give them what they ask for--which is her attention!
The Kabbot-Zinns have a lot of good to say. And I can see how their message can go along with unschooling. But for me, there is nothing more simple (not always easy) than just paying attention to my daughter.
All of these other practices place attention on the parent and on the parent's trip--and I realize that we have our own "inner work" to do too--but I just wish that people could get that "being mindful" or "being in the moment," in terms of relating to our children, requires little more than focusing on them rather than on ourselves.
I'll shut up now and go to bed.
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-=-I'll shut up now and go to bed.-=-
When you wake up, I hope you'll keep saying what you're saying.
-=I can see how their message can go along with unschooling. But for
me, there is nothing more simple (not always easy) than just paying
attention to my daughter.-=-
I agree with you. People are putting their children on hold, running
around looking for what they think will make them better parents and
happier people, when we've seen repeatedly and consistently that
ceasing to run around looking at anything other than one's own
children can make them better parents and happier people, right then
and right there.
Sandra
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I agree with you. People are putting their children on hold, running
around looking for what they think will make them better parents and
happier people, when we've seen repeatedly and consistently that
ceasing to run around looking at anything other than one's own
children can make them better parents and happier people, right then
and right there.
Sandra
I agree with this. I have a magnet on my fridge that says, Trust Children. I got it from Jan Hunt's website - naturalchild.org. My original post had more to do with offering mindfulness (Buddhism) to children. In Los Angeles, specifically, Santa Monica where I live, they offer mindfulness classes to children starting at age 4. Currently, I am "studying" mindfulness's effect on adult brains. I am finding all the information I am finding regarding neuroplasticity fascinating and I can't help but wonder - would it be helpful if I introduce certain aspects of mindfulness to my daughter? Currently, we do yoga for kids at home. She loves pretending to be a frog and doing assisted handstands. That came about organically because we were walking by the yoga class and she wanted to go in. Maybe it all can be that way - we walk by something and we try it and then we find ways to do it at home and I just let that be instead of thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential - something that does not fit into unschooling. That is what I am finding difficult... All the best, M.J.
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-=-I just let that be instead of thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential - something that does not fit into unschooling. That is what I am finding difficult...
All the best,
M.J.-=-
Part of why you're finding this difficult is that your daughter is only four! I remember having my oldest be four and thinking that I needed to expose him to everything now, now, now! My friend and I were just laughing about all the science experiments and things we did so that they would have all those things "under their belts"--and now they don't even remember them. We are doing science experiments now and what they are getting out of them is so very different I can't even tell you--now our boys are 14 and 15. Which is not at all to say not to do science experiments--but just do them for the fun and enjoyment. That's what I'd go back and do, in this respect, if I had my boy four again. Although childhood is fleeting in one sense, there is also plenty of time for all of this stuff, and for our kids to come to stuff as they are ready. There will be so many thousands of conversations with your daughter by the time she is 14 in which you will discuss all sorts of things, including mindfulness when it actually has meaning for her as a practice. Before then, she'll be watching you--how you react, how you process your emotions, and I'll be that will have a much bigger internal impact on her than a class that is appealing to an intellect that isn't yet ready to incorporate these abstract thoughts. Until kids are a certain age, we really aren't self-concious in a way necessary for mindfulness to have meaning. We just are. Our kids ARE having a direct experience with being present and in the moment. I think trying to impose a structure before there's substance to support it is, in essence, a waste of time and money. -=-...thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential-=- The way to enhance her brain potential IS to have fun, talk, laugh, play, be silly, explore share, etc. That IS it--nothing more--but that's A LOT. If a class helps do those things, and is MOSTLY about those things, then that could be a cool class. If not, then don't do it. Joanna
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On 3/21/2010 6:11 PM, sheeboo2 wrote: The Kabbot-Zinns have a lot of good to say. And I can see how their message can go along with unschooling. But for me, there is nothing more simple (not always easy) than just paying attention to my daughter.
All of these other practices place attention on the parent and on the parent's trip--and I realize that we have our own "inner work" to do too--but I just wish that people could get that "being mindful" or "being in the moment," in terms of relating to our children, requires little more than focusing on them rather than on ourselves. I read a lot of stuff - Kabbot-Zinn, NVC, and on and on. I read them once and let the ideas flow around in my head and some influence me and some don't. I don't adopt any of them as a way of life - I make up my OWN way of life based on my own family. Some people, like Sandra, have had a HUGE influence on how I think and behave, others have had none. Some of these books I've read and philosophies I've taken a look at might have added some idea to my overall way of thinking that I'm not even aware of. The level of commitment some people seem to have to some of these systems, or philosophies, or beliefs, or whatever you want to call them, seems like the worst kind of religious belief, to me. They think their chosen "system" has all the answers - everybody else's system is lacking, and if only everybody would adopt their system there would be heaven on earth. Anyway, I agree that really looking and observing and considering our own children is the most enlightening thing we can do. I look back and think that what I did was dip into some philosophy or another and then give it a reality check by thinking about it in relation to my own family. I'd imagine how it would go over, what difference it would make, and so on. And, sometimes, some part of it made sense and I very naturally integrated it into our family life. -pam
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On Mar 21, 2010, at 11:29 PM, mkangj wrote: would it be helpful if I introduce certain aspects of mindfulness
to my daughter? I wondered similar things when Kathryn was young. The huge difference between adults and kids is the adults feel a gap and are choosing something that intrigues them to fill it with. WIth kids it's an adult seeing what they believe is a gap and imposing on the child something the adult finds intriguing. That's the purpose of schools: to see weaknesses, imperfections, gaps and let experts fill them. If she enjoys yoga, and the classes are fun, do it because you think she might have fun not because you want to improve an imperfection (flabby brain potential). Are the people in LA way more happy than the rest of the country because they have all these programs to fill in gaps from a very young age? Or is there perhaps more worry that they are so full of gaps that experts have identified in people and they haven't found the right programs to fix them? Joyce
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--------Maybe it all can be that way - we walk by something and we try it and then we
find ways to do it at home and I just let that be instead of thinking about ways
to enhance her brain/her potential---------------
Sometimes I think people see a disconnect when looking at an unschooling life in the sense that we, as parents, aren't *supposed* to help our kids develop their deepest interests. I guess some can see this as non supportive of "potential;" we're not trying to raise potential scientists, artists, musicians, car mechanics, etc....but we are, in my view, *supposed* to bring things into our kids view that we think they might find useful, interesting, mind-expanding, and most of all, FUN! (because as others have already mentioned, *that* is where the greatest potential is realized!)
For me, there are two sides to this: 1) our intention and 2) our expectation
If our intention is to somehow "improve" on our children, then we're on the wrong path.
If our expectation is for them to use the object or information in a specific way, then we're on the wrong path as well.
What brings your daughter joy? These are the things you bring to her.
Practicing mindfulness is great, for adults. Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beginnings I've ever seen--have you ever really watched a young one play with bubbles? Or sift sand through a strainer? That is full-body, full-brain mindful meditation even the Dali Lama would appreciate!
Do you remember learning how to ride a bike? Maybe this never happened to you, but I remember my dad yelling, "You're doing IT!!!!!" And you know what? I fell off the bike!
Brie
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--------Maybe it all can be that way - we walk by something and we try it and then we
find ways to do it at home and I just let that be instead of thinking about ways
to enhance her brain/her potential---------------
Sometimes I think people see a disconnect when looking at an unschooling life in the sense that we, as parents, aren't *supposed* to help our kids develop their deepest interests. I guess some can see this as non supportive of "potential;" we're not trying to raise potential scientists, artists, musicians, car mechanics, etc....but we are, in my view, *supposed* to bring things into our kids view that we think they might find useful, interesting, mind-expanding, and most of all, FUN! (because as others have already mentioned, *that* is where the greatest potential is realized!)
For me, there are two sides to this: 1) our intention and 2) our expectation
If our intention is to somehow "improve" on our children, then we're on the wrong path.
If our expectation is for them to use the object or information in a specific way, then we're on the wrong path as well.
What brings your daughter joy? These are the things you bring to her.
Practicing mindfulness is great, for adults. Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beginnings I've ever seen--have you ever really watched a young one play with bubbles? Or sift sand through a strainer? That is full-body, full-brain mindful meditation even the Dali Lama would appreciate!
Do you remember learning how to ride a bike? Maybe this never happened to you, but I remember my dad yelling, "You're doing IT!!!!!" And you know what? I fell off the bike!
Brie
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Ooops....typo. That should have read:
"Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beings I've ever seen"
Although "beginnings" instead of "beings" is kinda cool in a poetic sort of way.......
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-=--=-...thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential-=-
-=-The way to enhance her brain potential IS to have fun, talk, laugh,
play, be silly, explore share, etc. That IS it--nothing more--but
that's A LOT.-=-
YES!
Think of her as a tree, growing. A tree grows from the seed it was.
All the information for that future tree was in that seed. How would
you enhance a tree's growth and potential? Mostly by preventing
damage to it.
If your daughter grows up whole and safe and happy, maybe she won't
need to have her potential enhanced or repaired. If she grows up with
optimal peace, comfort and opportunity to see, touch, smell, taste and
hear, she can be her mindful self.
Sandra
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-=-Sometimes I think people see a disconnect when looking at an unschooling life in the sense that we, as parents, aren't *supposed* to help our kids develop their deepest interests.-=-
I don't understand this statement. What we ARE "supposed" to do as unschoolers is to help our kids develop their deepest interests. Who is saying that that ISN'T what we're supposed to do--you, or someone that doesn't understand unschooling? That thought is at the very core of unschooling, so for "people" to say that means that they have completely missed the boat.
-=-I guess some can see this as non supportive of "potential;" -=-
You've gone on as though the original premise is true--that we aren't supposed to help them... The whole point is to ALLOW for potential. That's why we find out what they are interested in instead of bringing our own agenda to their learning.
-=-we're not trying to raise potential scientists, artists, musicians, car mechanics, etc....but we are, in my view, *supposed* to bring things into our kids view that we think they might find useful, interesting, mind-expanding, and most of all, FUN! (because as others have already mentioned, *that* is where the greatest potential is realized!)-=-
Right--but someone might be raising a potential scientist, artist, musician or car mechanic, because that is where their child's interests lay--and then they WOULD by trying to do that. There seem to be a lot of ethical limits in your thinking about unschooling.
-=-Practicing mindfulness is great, for adults. Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beings I've ever seen--have you ever really watched a young one play with bubbles? Or sift sand through a strainer? That is full-body, full-brain mindful meditation even the Dali Lama would appreciate!-=-
I agree completely. The idea of teaching "mindfulness" to a child is a twisting and a complication of the point of the whole thing! The more I think about it, the more it bothers me--as if we adults have discovered some really great thing that can "improve" on childhood. I think I trust millions of years of evolution, thank you very much! Next there will be medications that help children to be more "mindful." Or a tea they can drink.
Joanna
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-=-For me, there are two sides to this: 1) our intention and 2) our
expectation
-=-If our intention is to somehow "improve" on our children, then
we're on the wrong path.
-=-If our expectation is for them to use the object or information in
a specific way, then we're on the wrong path as well.-=-
That's too strongly stated for my tastes.
Sometimes people (children or adults) need specific information for a
particular purpose.
Some objects and information ARE for specific purposes.
Sandra
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***I just had a long harrowing conversation with a friend who wants to practice all kinds of lovely philosophies but can't, for even the shortest amount of time, look at her children and give them what they ask for--which is her attention!***
I see this all the time. Even if a parent is giving their attention to the child, sometimes it's the wrong kind of attention, or there's so much other stuff between them, there's a disconnect.
It seems especially true for parents with young children. If someone isn't going to parent traditionally, what they replace it with can be confusing. There are all these layers of unexamined beliefs that need to be peeled back to get a clear image of their child right there in front of them. Some of those layers include beliefs about food control or media control or plastic toys or environmental issues. What it always comes down to for me, is if I'm looking directly at my child both literally and figuratively, there is no way to avoid knowing what it is that my child wants without all that other stuff getting in the way. I can rationalize, in my own thinking, why *I* wouldn't do "abc" or why *I* wouldn't purchase "xyz", and I could even explain that to my child, BUT it won't change the fact that in that moment, in my own thoughts, other ideas are standing before my child and what their direct needs and wants are.
It's easy to see that grounding a child from tv because they didn't clean their room, can cause an adversarial relationship, since one has nothing to do with the other, and it's CLEARLY parental control and manipulation over a child. It's way more difficult for a parent to see that telling a child that they can't have that cute stuffed animal because it's "made in China", is still control and manipulation over a child. That's where another philosophy overrides another.
If a parent can relax and know that the world is good and that stuffed animals, no matter where they come from, are one step towards happiness, and a happy child is one step towards a happier and better world, then they can happily give a child a stuffed animal without feeling guilt about where and how that item is made. If that particular issue is big for that parent, in their free moments, they can spend time writing to people and furthering their cause to make changes. If they're happy and optimistic about that, then kids may eventually adopt that same spirit. Forcing children to live a parent's philosophy doesn't necessarily produce kids that live those same philosophies and could actually produce the opposite.
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***we walk by something and we try it and then we find ways to do it at home and I just let that be instead of thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential - something that does not fit into unschooling. That is what I am finding difficult...***
I was thinking along similar lines the other day. I have 2 kids really far apart in age. When my oldest was 5, then 6, then 7, etc., I did soooo much with her. I went out of my way to find cool activities to be a part of, classes to join, parks to play at, museums to visit, plays to attend. We were really active. I counted everything as part of our homeschooling. I chose lots of activities knowing that it could be educational and fun.
When Margaux was born, everything slowed way down because Margaux was such an intense baby and cried all the time and made it nearly impossible to do many of those activities that we were used to doing. We still did stuff, but my focus changed a lot. Since she wouldn't sleep unless she was in my arms, I spent many hours online reading as much as I possibly could about unschooling. I read there before she was born too, but it was here and there inbetween our outings and adventures.
Chamille grew older, her interests narrowed and Margaux wanted to be at home almost always. Somewhere along the way I stopped focusing on doing stuff and "enriching" the lives of my kids with tons of activities. The difference is that we stopped to smell the roses. Rather than searching out tons of stuff to do, we've found what's right here in front of us, which was in front of us all along. Life became simpler in some ways, and in another way it became more intense. We stop and check out the thermostat and see how the furnace works, we take the time to measure things and read things and make things and talk about things and watch things together. It's not that we didn't do those things before, it's that those things were more peripheral and now they are more central.
So, maybe instead of finding ways to enhance her brain and her potential, stop and smell the roses and delve into what is right in front of you and let that be your place of expansion, and KNOW that through that there would be no way to NOT enhance her brain and her potential.
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I wrote: ------Sometimes I think people see a disconnect when looking at an unschooling life in the sense that we, as parents, aren't *supposed* to help our kids develop their deepest interests.-=-
Joanna wrote: I don't understand this statement.
Joanna, I don't understand it either, and I wrote it!
What I was *trying* to say is that yes, we are supposed to do all the things you mention--but some misunderstand and think unschooling is more hands-off.
I wrote: -=-I guess some can see this as non supportive of "potential;" -=-
Joanna wrote: ------You've gone on as though the original premise is true--that we aren't supposed to help them... The whole point is to ALLOW for potential. That's why we find out what they are interested in instead of bringing our own agenda to their learning.----
Again, I agree, but wasn't being very articulate, I guess.
I wrote: --------we're not trying to raise potential scientists, artists, musicians, car mechanics, etc....----------
Joanna wrote:----- Right--but someone might be raising a potential scientist, artist, musician or car mechanic, because that is where their child's interests lay--and then they WOULD by trying to do that. There seem to be a lot of ethical limits in your thinking about unschooling.----------
I see what you're saying. For me, I was reacting to the word "Potential" in the OP's post. I like the way Sandra recently defined it--as a seed-- all the potential being always already inside a person.
I was seeing her question about helping to develop brain potential as a fear or admission that her daughter's brain wasn't *already* equipped with all of the energy it needed to "grow."
This is perhaps one of the issues I see the most with conventional parenting and school culture which is the hardest for me to understand--there seems to be a general theory that our children are constantly in need of enrichment and improvement. I agree that they need stimulating and rich lives, but I don't believe that these experiences *have to* come from contrived settings, like a "mindfulness" group or an art class. Groups and classes are great, if that's what your child *wants* to do--my daughter wanted to participate in a Dinotopia workshop at our local art museum (she wanted to meet Jim Gurney, the artist)--but I didn't *need* to bring her to the workshop for her to develop her artistic abilities or her appreciation of art.
A while back there was a long thread on Always Unschooled about educational infant DVDs. This thought that we need to start cramming contrived learning down our young ones' throats or they'll lag behind.... I was reacting to the OP's use of "potential" in the same light.
Brie
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----Sometimes people (children or adults) need specific information for a particular purpose. Some objects and information ARE for specific purposes.-----
Yes, I think I agree--like how to use a weapon? How to type a search into Google? I think about the times my daughter has asked a question and I replied with "what do you think?" and how frustrated that made her! She wanted the most concise answer possible. She didn't want to use all her Creative Thinking Abilities to think of all the various combinations of possibilities, she wanted SPECIFIC information and she wanted it NOW.
Gottchya.
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Sandra Dodd