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-=-In regards to your comment that "I don't hear choice, I hear middle
class privilege, " I don't necessarily see that in the "Have to" page,
but I do agree that unschooling seems almost impossible for families
in other income/class brackets, but that is a more political
discussion than this list is for....-=-
I don't see it as political to discuss whether unschooling seems
almost impossible for some families and possible for others. Go ahead.
Sandra
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---------I don't see it as political to discuss whether unschooling seems
almost impossible for some families and possible for others. Go ahead.-------
Okay....
I'm not going to talk about the economic reasons why I think unschooling is more accessible to the middle and upper classes as these are pretty self-evident. Instead, I'll talk about one of my own personal problems with homeschooling, which is that I often feel as if I've turned my back on the rest of the youth in our country. This pains me. I wish that all children had the chance to grow and learn freely and that they could all be nourished by caring adults who've decided to make them a priority. Imagine our world!
But this just isn't the case. It isn't true for the schools and it isn't true for many families. I remember how active my parents were in the public school I attended until 6th grade. They actively fought to change a broken system and they were surprisingly successful. Lots of young people, not just their children, benefited from their actions.
So in some ways the point about "middle-class privilege" draws me to the reverse side of the equation: if the people who care the most about reform (homeschoolers) are the people who take their kids out of the schools, who will be left to fight for the change our kids so desperately need?
However, I'm not willing to sacrifice my daughter to a system I feel is harmful--and I think I'm *allowed* to make this choice because I come from a place that gives me confidence I can succeed without "the system."
If you caught the Discovery program last night, you heard the unschoolers' neighbor talk about her concerns--there was genuine fear in her voice when she asked something like, "how can you go to college if you don't spend your life in school?"
People, parents especially, have been led to believe that they lack the knowledge to do something--anything-- without an expert (or institution) leading the way. School has been touted as the great equalizer; if you "stay in school" you can be anything you want to be. It is hard to turn your back on the hope schooling offers when you're surrounded by people living "hopeless" existences.
I know that there has been research showing that the level of parent schooling has no bering on the success of homeschooling, but that doesn't help people who don't know how or where to look for such comforting "facts."
I used to talk about homeschooling with the woman who cleaned my office. She is from Mexico and went to school until she was twelve. The most important thing to her, was making sure her granddaughter finished school. This woman is one of the wisest women I've ever met. Yet she would never believe herself capable of facilitating a decent education for her granddaughter.
Most of the unschoolers I know are very well educated. I know my own education has shown me how easy it is to learn when I'm interested (and how much crap, which I immediately forgot, had to be swallowed just to get to the part I was interested in)--and this in turn allows me the ability to feel safe with our decisions to unschool. I think it is a much harder choice for people who feel they could have gone farther in life had they only had a better education. It isn't a *lack* of an education that makes unschooling impossible, it is the fear that goes along with the lack. It is my suspicion that this fear is built directly into the educational system--the system that gets citizens ready for the hierarchies they'll need to deal with for the rest of their lives.
I'm tired and not sure I'm getting my thoughts across clearly. More anon...
Brie
Homeschooling means, most of the time, that one parent needs to be home. This is especially true with homeschooling young ones. The economic considerations alone are enough to make many people I know push the possibility off the table.
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--- In AlwaysLearning@..., "sheeboo2" <naturewalkersinfo@...> wrote:
I'm not going to talk about the economic reasons why I think >>>unschooling is more accessible to the middle and upper classes as >>>these are pretty self-evident.
My response: From a purely monetary point of view it may be true that wealthier people can more easily afford to homeschool, but socially and culturally it may be precisely this economic advantage that dissuades them from homeschooling because they have bought in (so to speak) to the whole 'education = success' paradigm. Most of the unschoolers I know are at the lower end of the economic spectrum. Brie wrote: So in some ways the point about "middle-class privilege" draws me >>>to the reverse side of the equation: if the people who care the >>>most about reform (homeschoolers) are the people who take their >>>kids out of the schools, who will be left to fight for the change >>>our kids so desperately need?
My response: Do homeschoolers really care the most about school reform? I think most homeschoolers believe that fundamentally school cannot be reformed. Spending lots of time and energy on political causes will take away from the parents' ability to be actively engaged with their kids. Claire
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-=-Homeschooling means, most of the time, that one parent needs to be
home. This is especially true with homeschooling young ones. The
economic considerations alone are enough to make many people I know
push the possibility off the table.-=
How many possibilities are pushed of anyone's table? No one can do
everything. You can't raise and train dogs AND tour the world AND be
a backpacker AND have the best flower garden anyone in your town has
ever seen.
-=- It isn't a *lack* of an education that makes unschooling
impossible, it is the fear that goes along with the lack. It is my
suspicion that this fear is built directly into the educational system-
=-
If everyone stays involved in that system, the fear will grow.
If some leave it, and their children learn to read and then grow up
and get jobs, the fears will be lessened. There will be an
alternative example.
Perhaps unschooling will eventually change the schools, but without
anyone unschooling that can't happen.
-=- I remember how active my parents were in the public school I
attended until 6th grade. They actively fought to change a broken
system and they were surprisingly successful-=-
They changed a broken system and it stayed changed? Cool.
(I doubt they changed it much or that it changed the next school over,
and the next, or your parents would be famous now, right? And schools
would not be broken.)
How many parents should dash their time and energy against the solid
badillion-dollar wall of public schooling? How many kids in tears and
parents in fury would it take to put a dent in that wall?
Sandra
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-=-So in some ways the point about "middle-class privilege" draws me
to the reverse side of the equation: if the people who care the most
about reform (homeschoolers) are the people who take their kids out of
the schools, who will be left to fight for the change our kids so
desperately need? -=-
I don't think homeschoolers are the people who care the most about
school reform.
John Holt was a school reformer for may years, until he came to the
conclusion that school could not be reformed.
Many people on this list are or were teachers.
Sandra
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I don't see it as political to discuss whether unschooling seems
almost impossible for some families and possible for others. Go ahead.<<< Perhaps it's all about perspective. Three years ago, I was certain I could not homeschool. I had not yet learned of Unschooling. I, the Mama, support our family. Mama's are "supposed to be the one's at home with homeschooled kids," or so I thought. My DH, who works from home, claimed that he would be "an ineffective teacher, that he could not do this, that he did not want the burden of our children's education on his shoulders--what if they failed?" Three years ago, I discovered that my beautiful daughter shut down when faced with school. She did things to avoid school that shut me down. She hid in the pantry, under the covers, in the closet. She refused to get out of bed. She screamed bloody murder when I asked her to get her clothes on. I was mortified. Terrified. Completely clueless as to what to do. All those questions that do harm invaded me, "why is my kid not like the other kids?" "How are we going to manage this?" "How will I deal with the schools and their attendance policies?" I pulled her out of Kindergarten and we told ourselves we'd try it again next year, but we'll homeschool this year--mostly we just played and lived, and I started reading about Unschooling. We tried school again the next year at my daughter's request, and it went okay. I had learned about honoring her choices. If she said she didn't want to go, I said fine. But most of the time she wanted to go. She went nearly every day. She loved her teacher. Then came 1st grade. And we were back to square one, almost. I had learned more. I had been reading and reading and reading about Unschooling. The more I read, the more I thought it might work for us. That we could MAKE it work. When the decision came to pull her out of 1st grade, it was a decision that was made joyfully, peacefully, and powerfully. It was a relief. And we are making it work. We are a bit "spoiled" in many senses--we have family that lives near us and they support our Unschooling decision. We have been able to modify our schedules so that we, the parents, still spend the majority of time with our kids. I work part-time, but still earn enough to support us, although it's been pretty tight. Once our decision to live without school was made, it seems as if we have become more aware of the choices we, the parents, need to make to have it work out. It's not always easy--there are many days when I wish that I could be the one at home the majority of the time. But I can at least be content in the fact that my children are with people who love them and who are supportive of their day to day. The most common "rationale" I hear parents use when confronted with the idea of homeschooling is, "I could never do that because I could never be with my kids all day long." But I have discovered that the more time I spend with my kids, the more time I want to spend with my kids. It's a beautiful feeling to have, and it makes me sad to hear people say it so frequently. Because I've seen my own perspective change and evolve, I think that might be one of the biggest factors involved.
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---I don't think homeschoolers are the people who care the most about
school reform.---
Yes..I see what you are saying--.My thoughts might have been better stated as, "the people who care about doing things differently....."
I agree that school, as an institution, is broken beyond repair. The very institution is flawed from its inception! I guess that's the one point I keep coming back to. It isn't that schools have this wonderful potential--they are, at their very essence, something I find distasteful. And then the "middle class" privilege guilt sets in!
----"If everyone stays involved in that system, the fear will grow."-----
Yes. I agree.
----"They changed a broken system and it stayed changed? Cool.
(I doubt they changed it much or that it changed the next school over,
and the next, or your parents would be famous now, right? And schools
would not be broken.)"----
You are absolutely right! After my parents pulled us out of public school and put us in an alternative (really, very "unschooling-ish") school, we'd hear about the old school going back to its old ways. The change only lasted for as long as there were people actively asking for it.
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You have raised some thought-provoking questions. You might remember that
many of us who are home-schooling are also continuing to be active in our
school systems. We are home-schooling our daughter for reasons that do NOT
involve dissatisfaction with our local schools. We are strong public school
supporters, so I continue to make the effort to attend school board
meetings, participate at local school events, volunteer at the local
elementary school, donate our books and toys there, etc.
So while you frame the question as an "either/or" situation, it's not.
Home-schooling families can continue to be involved and in any event, our
tax dollars still contribute to the public school budgets.
Diane
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I used to worry guiltily, a bit about "abandoning the school system when it needs my help", especially when Jayn was pre-school age and I would meet people who staunchly defended school in response to my rather diffident "we're planning to home school". (Methinks the lady doth protest too much).
BUT now I don't worry the least bit because I am now convinced that any idea for change, any direction that *I* would think positive for school reform, would not be remotely what the majority of parents today would *want* from their kids' schools.
This would be a case of me saying "they should" instead of them determining how they want the school to be. It's good being done to someone or done for someone on their behalf without being what they would ask for. There's enough of that in the school system without my two cents.
I don't use any school's services. They can happily take the portion of local property tax that my rent represents and use it how they see fit, and I will not complain.
Except about the yellow buses speeding down my street. They drive way too fast, beyond their own speed limits. Slower buses. That would be my protest sign.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
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-=-
I agree that school, as an institution, is broken beyond repair. The
very institution is flawed from its inception! I guess that's the one
point I keep coming back to. It isn't that schools have this wonderful
potential--they are, at their very essence, something I find
distasteful. And then the "middle class" privilege guilt sets in!-=-
Don't look at school, then. Look at your children. Turn your back on
the school so that your shadow protects them from even the thought or
glimpse of school.
Don't let it hurt your or your children.
Trying to change it will take time and energy and attention that you
could have spent on your children.
For some kids, school is better than home. Don't think about that too
hard. It could be depressing. For some kids, home is better than
school. If those are your kids, then make it GREAT!
Sandra
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***I'm not going to talk about the economic reasons why I think unschooling is more accessible to the middle and upper classes as these are pretty self-evident. Instead, I'll talk about one of my own personal problems with homeschooling, which is that I often feel as if I've turned my back on the rest of the youth in our country. This pains me. I wish that all children had the chance to grow and learn freely and that they could all be nourished by caring adults who've decided to make them a priority. Imagine our world!
But this just isn't the case. ***
I can't make any other parent, parent their children differently any more than a school can. Whether we like it or not, there have been and always will be parents that shouldn't be parents at all. Nobody can tell me how to parent, just like I can't tell anyone else how to do so. The only thing I can do is be a good parent, be the best parent that I can be.
In so doing, I'm helping grow kinder gentler children who are kinder and gentler with others. Our house is a refuge to many kids. Chamille is a source of wisdom and caring to broken others. It is BECAUSE of unschooling that she is this way. What we are doing IS helping others. We haven't turned our backs on anyone, on the contrary, we've embraced those that need help and we are able to do so because we are NOT broken and needing help ourselves.
Chamille is so grounded and strong and capable, I don't know if I could ever put it in words that would accurately describe the kind of person she is and the kind of compassion she radiates about her. She sees and knows deeply the hurts of others. She sees and knows deeply that most of those hurts come from school and parents and the mixture of those. She lives her life with conviction and others can see and know that there is another way to be. She is changing the lives of others simply by being herself! I've seen it over and over and over!
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"So in some ways the point about "middle-class privilege" draws me
to the reverse side of the equation: if the people who care the most about reform (homeschoolers) are the people who take their kids out of the schools, who will be left to fight for the change our kids so desperately need?"
I struggled with this social responsibility when I first withdrew my eldest from school. I have since come to the point that my primary rsponsibility is to my children while they are young. After they have grown and become independent I can invest more time and energy to the greater good.
For myself the answer to who can't unschool, is the person who can not imagine life another way. I feel that this remains true even years into unschooling when challenges arise, it is the person who can explore a myriad of alternatives who will be most able to find a way to continue unschooling.
all the best
Trude
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-=-Homeschooling means, most of the time, that one parent needs to be home. This is especially true with homeschooling young ones. The economic considerations alone are enough to make many people I know push the possibility off the table.-=
It's been my experience that when people really want to homeschool, they find a way.
In my local area, I know many single parents who are still managing to homeschool on fairly low incomes. I know even more families where both parents are working. It's important to them to homeschool, so they've arranged their lives to make it a priority.
The single parents rely on friends and family for child care when they have to be away from their children. None with young children work 40 hours a week away from home, though several with teens do. The couples work different shifts so that the children are almost always with one parent or the other.
I also know several homeschooling families currently dealing with unemployment and underemployment. So far, none have found that sending their children to school would make the financial situation easier.
Deborah in IL
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--- In AlwaysLearning@..., "sheeboo2" <naturewalkersinfo@...> wrote:
about "middle-class privilege"
People, parents especially, have been led to believe that they lack the knowledge to do something--anything-- without an expert (or institution) leading the way. School has been touted as the great equalizer; if you "stay in school" you can be anything you want to be. It is hard to turn your back on the hope schooling offers when you're surrounded by people living "hopeless" existences.
I used to talk about homeschooling with the woman who cleaned my office. She is from Mexico and went to school until she was twelve. The most important thing to her, was making sure her granddaughter finished school. This woman is one of the wisest women I've ever met. Yet she would never believe herself capable of facilitating a decent education for her granddaughter.
The ideas you're bringing up here are fascinating to me! I'm from Canada, and I remember when I was first learning about unschooling, combing the internet for information, I came across something posted by a young Aboriginal woman (teen, probably) who had decided to unschool, but her parents, or her family, weren't happy with her choice. She recognized this was because of now repealed sections of the Indian Act which forbade Aboriginal peoples from education beyond 8th grade. Maybe those who "can" unschool are those who are not only able to deschool themselves, but decolonize themselves? Kinda theoretical, I know :) However, I'm reminded of an article I recently read which included a list of the skill-set of decolonization (a lot of which made me think of unschooling): creating space for people to make their own decisions, supporting, creating safety, connecting, attending with compassion, re-integrating, reconnecting, listening, esteeming.
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-=- I remember how active my parents were in the public school I
attended until 6th grade. They actively fought to change a broken
system and they were surprisingly successful-=-
They changed a broken system and it stayed changed? Cool.
(I doubt they changed it much or that it changed the next school over,
and the next, or your parents would be famous now, right? And schools
would not be broken.)
-------------------------------
My dad was very actively involved in getting bussing into the Omaha school system. A few years ago they stopped bussing. They decided that separate but equal was better. Huge change and then change back.
I went to a very cool private school for 2 years. It was a John Holt-esque inspired school. After 2 years my dad could no longer support the idea of taking his influence and his leverage from the public school system and so he put me back into public school. I was smoking by 12 and I dropped out at 17. I don't know what would have happened in the other environment, but I certainly didn't feel like I wasn't learning, like I wasn't engaged. But I definitely fell through some serious cracks in the public school system.
Schuyler
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On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:45 PM, alisonmacnamara wrote: but her parents, or her family, weren't happy with her choice. She
recognized this was because of now repealed sections of the Indian
Act which forbade Aboriginal peoples from education beyond 8th grade. A few African Americans have said over the years there can be a lot of anger if they try to homeschool because so many worked so hard to remove the barriers between African Americans and public education. Homeschooling can feel like a slap in the face to their sacrifices. Joyce
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-=-I went to a very cool private school for 2 years. It was a John
Holt-esque inspired school. After 2 years my dad could no longer
support the idea of taking his influence and his leverage from the
public school system and so he put me back into public school-=-
My friend Frank had gone to private schools, because his parents could
afford it and really cared about education. Then his dad became the
superintendent of the public schools, and as a show-of-faith human
sacrifice, put Frank into public school.
eeek.
Frank really, really wanted to go to McCurdy where his friends and
neighbors went, a private school run by the EUB church, but no... for
the sake of his father's "career," he had to go to public school.
Sandra
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Sandra wrote:
==>My friend Frank had gone to private schools, because his parents could
afford it and really cared about education. Then his dad became the
superintendent of the public schools, and as a show-of-faith human
sacrifice, put Frank into public school.
eeek.
Frank really, really wanted to go to McCurdy where his friends and
neighbors went, a private school run by the EUB church, but no... for
the sake of his father's "career," he had to go to public school.<==
When we sent our kids to private school way back when family would often say to us..."The best way to save the public school system is to send your smart kids there"
We lived in an absolutely deplorable school district at the time...now we live in a much better one...but regardless...My response even then was, "Are you serious? Sacrifice my children for some ill-conceived greater good?"
I never understood. I still don't. Breaks my heart.
Peace,
Kelly
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-----------"Maybe those who "can" unschool are those who are not only able to deschool themselves, but decolonize themselves? Kinda theoretical, I know :)"------------
Wow...yes...that is a really insightful question. If I think about postcolonial theory, it makes a lot of sense, especially shifting the "center." I think it was Su, who talked about the issues of "authority," and this plays into your thoughts too. Perhaps one must be able to de-center authority, which seems to imply a desire/ability/???? to create your own. Not easy.
Perhaps this is why I often hear Yeats' "The Second Coming" ("the center cannot hold") in my head when I think about schools and schooling:
THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
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--------"Don't look at school, then. Look at your children. Turn your back on
the school so that your shadow protects them from even the thought or
glimpse of school."---------------
Thank you for this powerful image.
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Sandra Dodd