New things on the site, today.? A sound file of a Robyn Coburn presentation from 2005.

IF YOU SUBSCRIBE to Just Add Light, you might've noticed the e-mails are different.? We were given just a couple of months to bail, as Google's subscription tool is dropping the e-mail feature at the end of June.? The new one has some better options, but also some links to learn to ignore. :-)? It's expensive to take those off, and I'm trying to get the site stable AND cheap, so it can last a long time.

Four other blogs still have the option to subscribe to by mail, and those are linked from this announcement.

Impermanence AGAIN!?

https://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2021/06/impermanence-again.html

These don't affect Always Learning directly, but I'm hoping everyone here is also reading other things from me, and there those are. :-)

I posted a somewhat-retiring notice, too, on a group that's closed/archived now, so I saved my parts here:

Retirement, spiritual retreat, cocooning...

https://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2021/05/retirement-spiritual-retreat-cocooning.html

I'm trying to go through all my notes and snippets of webpage repairs and additions.? If you're in on SandraDodd.com and you find a page that's having problems **from a computer** please let me know.? Lots of pages have problems from phones.? I can't revamp a 20-year-old site because smart phones came along the other day.? :-)? ?

(I use my phone a lot, but not for e-mail and not for webpages.)

Sandra

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(This might not look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, but it is one.)

I don't keep stats or follow-ups, but I know at least three families from that day are still unschooling.? I hope it's more, but three is good. :-)

Being a collector of questions and answers makes my website larger than anyone can or needs to read, but it might make it easier for people to find information with a search.? I won't always be around to re-discover and share the obscure good parts.

Don't forget this page!?

http://sandradodd.com/search

The top search is my website (which now also includes a lot of the archives of this group, which was rescued before I knew we could move to groups(.io) here.??

The second box includes several other sources, too.

I hope everyone reading here will help others when opportunity and willingess allow. :-)

And I hope people won't feel any pressing obligation to help others, too, honestly—somewhere in there, I'm hoping for maximum happiness for lots of unschoolers.

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Sandra

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Thank you Sandra - that was so great to re-read!

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(This doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, but it is one.)

We're still giving some of Annie's suggestions a try.?

I am usually the one doing the reminding because my husband is sleeping at that point, however my husband is feeling very concerned.? We've already had to replace one retainer because it broke when she had forgotten it was sitting out, and my 11 year old has extra dentist appointments for gum disease that isn't covered by insurance, so he's feeling like brushing when we ask should just happen.?

I don't know how to balance the different relationships (me and husband, daughters and me, daughters and husband) as well as I could in this situation.

Part of someone's question, from that page, and my response:

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In the 'unschool world' technology is a huge battle. I see so many families trying 'no limits' and then, in despair, having to reclaim control over this aspect of their children's lives…

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That last paragraph is rich with problems, from a radical unschooling point of view.
In a way, clearing ideas that are roadblocks from one's thoughts and language is the main tool of deschooling.

In the 'unschool world' technology is a huge battle.
"Huge battles" are indicative of adversarial relationships. If you can learn to be your child's partner, rather than his adversary, the battle dissipates.

I don't believe in an unschooling world. I know the writer used quotation marks (In the 'unschool world' …).

There is not a different world for unschoolers to live in. In the life of a radical unschooling family where things are working well, technology is a huge blessing and benefit. If technology is a huge battle, that family is not unschooling well, and not having good relationships with their children.

I see so many families trying 'no limits' and then…
Two problems: "trying" and "no limits." If kids know the parent is only "trying" something, he will certainly take all he can get, desperately and in a frenzy.

"No limits" is not something any family should believe in, or promise their children The world has limits of all sorts. Parents don't need to add to that, but parents can't guarantee "no limits." They CAN give children lots of choices and options.

Gradual change would have helped.?
Saying yes a thousand little times is better for everyone than one big confusing "Yes forever, don't care, OH WAIT! Take it back."?

And the worst, the "have to" idea.?
What you think you "have to" do makes you powerless and frustrated. What you choose to do is empowering, and should be done thoughtfully and sweetly.

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I'm working on some rearrangements and pillow-fluffing at ?and thought I would bring one new little bit here.

At the bottom, I added three links.? You'll see why if you go there.

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I first went in to add this link:

Even if you've unschooled for a long time, schoolishness will sneak back up on you.? Some of your old beliefs and reactions might not have been triggered yet, because your child isn't at the age at which you had some thought, or pressure, or trauma (minor or major) in your own life.

Consider taking your deschooling in for a tune up every year or two.

Sandra

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Don't pressure her to the point of shame and resentment.

You could suggest might be her wearing the retainer while she's up late playing.? You could ask her sister to remind her (but don't make it "her job."??

Maybe put a sticky note here or there with "retainer" on it, and move it from day to day, for fun.

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BUT REMEMBER, if you bug her so much that it harms the relationship between you, you will lose more than if her teeth are a little less straight than they might have been.? The money has already been spent, on that orthodontia.? Help her a bit, but don't see yourself as a dental technician whose job it is to MAKE her do what her parents paid for.??

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Priorities!? Relationship.? Learning.? Peace.??

Be sweet, and that's better.

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Sandra
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My 11 and 13 year old daughters like to stay up late together.? However my 13 year old has consistently been forgetting to put her retainer in before heading to bed.? I usually get them a snack, give her before bed medication and ask them to brush their teeth before I head to bed around 11pm (the younger kids wake up early no matter when they go to bed).? The 11 and 13 year olds sometimes want to eat later and so they don't want to brush their teeth but then forget after I'm already asleep.? I need help with ideas, especially to help my husband, as he's concerned about how much we spend on dental work and orthodontics.?

Karen James wrote something new this week and I snagged it right up.

New writing on balance, by Karen James, added here:

(That will lead right to it.)

An older page, some new images, all links recently solidified:

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开云体育

I’m on my phone, so hopefully this goes through correctly without sharing all past messages.?

The ultimate Truth for this One is how my son displays such intuitive knowing of who he is, and why he is on this planet. He doesn't understand mainstream society at all as far as why anyone would be forced to conform to anything that is contrary to what works best for them as a human being. My son is the kindest, most compassionate, courteous human being I know because he quite simply treats others, inside our home and outside, how he wants to be treated. Despite learning differently, timewise and otherwise, he has common sense, and knows when things lack sense such as state testing requirements or any standard educational requirements.? He does, however, "get" that we must adhere to legal requirements as a US citizen plus current Georgia resident. My son is also one hundred percent literal, and incapable to tell a lie (much to my embarrassment often times.)

Am amazed how my son considers himself a "grammar geek" and finds it "annoying and frustrating" to find errors in spelling or punctuation in books, web pages, texts, online chats, comments, e-mail, etc. His best friend now writes in full sentences in game chats or YouTube comment instead of using "i" or "u", etc. due to my son's influence. His friend's mother told me that my son did this by being an example, and not by correcting or shaming at all.? That mother forces her son to homeschool with worksheets and eight daily hours of sitting at a table. My son learned to spell, expand vocabulary and utilize proper grammar because he is a voracious reader.

Anyway, I could also go on and on with examples of success since Sandra asked but I too have grown tired. I am not on Facebook which is why I reached out here. I am most grateful for everyone's comments this week along with countless past comments going ten years back which I had the pleasure and fortunate opportunity to read through most of yesterday and late last night.

I will be contacting Heather directly, and appreciate more than words can say her post, as she lives in Georgia, and that was what I came here seeking. The Universe always provides, and I feel humbled indeed.

May you all keep trudging this road of Happy Destiny until we meet again.

Sandra, Please know I consider you an Angel, and feel blessed by all I have learned through you the last ten years! Your daily e-mail has always been the highlight of my entire family's day. :-)

Peacefully,
Karen

NOTE:? It turns out the grandfather of a child doing covid school from home, who never homeschooled his own kids, who was talking about the importance of tests, knew nothing about unschooling except for reading John Holt 30 years ago.? That's not evil, but he went on and ON about himself and the value of tests and how well he did on tests.? I deleted four more posts, but saved this much to share how little people can think unschooling is, and to remind readers that there IS a lot that can be done to created a peaceful unschooling nest in which learning can't fail to thrive.

me:

-I am bringing two posts without the name of the person.? Male name.? Strident defense of school, and unintentional insults to unschooling.

[the? former group member]

In fact, I have been a very big critic of public school and the sort of indoctrination that goes on there.? This however does not discount the importance of some of the things presented there, and some skills developed.? It is not enough to criticize public school, a parent must take on the greater job and broader idea of education.? My saying so in no way suggests anyone should leave any portion of their children's education up to "government" schools.?

[me]

I've been among hundreds of unschoolers at a time for so long (thousands, over the years) that I can honestly forget how much one can not understand about it, sometimes.?

[other]

"Unschool" would seem to be rather self evident. It is avoiding or overcoming the damage done by schools, which is every parent's job.? It is something I have always done. Why you think my probing and perhaps at time, critical remarks makes me the enemy I can not know.??

Whatever unique definition you might be thinking of, it is not the name of this group. "Always Learning" describes my entire life, and that of my 3 boys, all raised to question authority (not to suggest disrespecting same), and discuss in depth different ways of viewing everything.?

__________________________ end of quotes___________________

-=-"Unschool" would seem to be rather self evident. It is avoiding or overcoming the damage done by schools, which is every parent's job.? It is something I have always done.-=-

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That definition allows someone whose children were in school to ay he always unschooled.? This isn't helpful to anyone in this group.

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-=-Whatever unique definition you might be thinking of, it is not the name of this group. "Always Learning" describes my entire life, and that of my 3 boys, all raised to question authority (not to suggest disrespecting same), and discuss in depth different ways of viewing everything. -=-

If the name of the group was enough to describe unschooling, I wouldn't need my website; we wouldn't even need the group.? Just name it and have done.? It would be "rather self-evident."

Again, for people new to this, definitions of unschooling by different radical unschoolers are, as a collection, illuminating.

Some of these are really sweet:

I have loved helping people to understand unschooling for nearly 30 years now.? Kirby will turn 35 this summer, and I started discussing and exchanging ideas about unschooling, reading Growing Without Unschooling, and meeting other unschoolers, when he was five.

I'm getting a little tired now. :-)? And this guy's six posts complaining and acting like none of us knows anything about school made me more tired.? :-)

Sandra

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We were required to test also, without needing to turn it in. I (a mom of 2 grown unschoolers) handled that a couple of ways:

We just didn’t test. This wasn’t too risky, as homeschooling inspectors rarely made home visits or required homeschoolers to show their required documents. They had to announce any inspection well before they came, so I figured if they were coming, we’d do a test before then. That never happened.

My youngest needed standardized test scores to qualify for... something. I don’t remember now what it was. I was a tiny bit nervous when I saw what I thought were requirements: that someone other than the parents proctor the test, that the test be timed, that the test-taker take the test alone.

I looked deeper, and found those were strong recommendations, not requirements, so it became an “open-book” (open internet) test, overseen by me, not timed in any way, and taken over a few days in our home amongst everyone. (I may have lied on the form, that we had followed the recommendations; I don’t remember that, either.) He could ask any questions he needed to ask. If we’d been required to hand in test scores every year, we would have either done this, or I’d have taken the tests for them.

For most of it, he decided to not look anything up, and ask only clarifying questions. He was 17, and wanted to see how he’d do. He got frustrated when he got to the higher math questions, so after trying several things, I took that part for him. If he’d wanted, I’d have filled in the entire test for him. I find standardized tests kinda fun.

This is my family, our lives. I was very comfortable with those choices.

Caren

/g/AlwaysLearning

The intro to this group describes the purpose of the group, and there's a link at the bottom to be read before posting or commenting here.? I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to be kind to everyone, so that bad advice and hurt feelings are avoided, while everyone's learning more about learning.

___________? ?text of that page, with the link ________________

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NEW MEMBERS: Read at the Group Website link below before posting.

How and why does unschooling work? What kind of parents and parenting does it take? What will help, and what will hinder?

This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based on the principles underlying unschooling.

Always Learning will focus on how people learn no matter where in the world they are, rather than on what's legal in any particular country or jurisdiction.

This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play way. New members' posts are moderated, and it's good to read several dozen posts before jumping in.)

If you've never read any John Holt, his thoughts and writing are behind unschooling. There is a link on that page, too.

"I can honestly say that I've grown more as a person, parent and unschooler due to the discussions on this list than on any other list I've been on."

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Sandra here, quoting a dad / grandfather (also quoted above), who wrote in response to Jo's comments:

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While I doubt much can be said about a person based on test scores of any kind,? the advent of home schooling allows for flagrantly bad parenting, for which the child will pay for in life.? Imposing some minimal standard via testing assures there is at least some form of education going on. I don't like that such tests are done under the auspices of government,? but measuring a child's development is certainly not a bad idea.? Such is not done in order to judge anything other than progress, and as parents, we are ultimately responsible for assuring our children's progress.?

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I'm not suggesting a formal test is the only way to do that, but perhaps the only way the state can be sure the child it also has a responsibility for is progressing. Again, it is the child that pays for a lack of childhood progress.??? ?

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I don't blame people who just fell into this group somehow for not understanding more.? It's only recently that one could stumble in. :-)? For a long time, people came here from other unschooling discussions, and only those who wanted more advanced discussions joined here.

I'll make a couple of comments and the link to more information about the group:

-=-the advent of home schooling allows for flagrantly bad parenting, for which the child will pay for in life.-=-

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"The advent of homeschooling" isn't recent.??

School has failed to prevent flagrantly bad parenting.? Some schools have added flagrantly harmful schooling.

A child does not "pay" for having been parented badly.? Think again.? Bad parents have never become good parents because a stranger said "your child will pay for your bad parenting."

Unschooling, though—radical unschooling as has been discussed in this group for nearly 20 years, and in other places by some of those still in this group for ten years before that—is all about exceptionally GOOD parenting.

Not everyone who tries to, intends to, claims to be an unschooler does a great job, but very many do.? Any who fail to be better parents than they've been didn't read enough or participate enough in discussions to rub the schooly barbs off their own former thoughts.? Not everyone wants to do that.? We're here to help the people who DO want to recover from their own schooling and schoolishness.

-=-Imposing some minimal standard via testing assures there is at least some form of education going on.-=-

Learning.? There is a fancy form of learning going on.? It's based on The Open Classroom, but isn't limited by the building or the school hours or the finite set of materials that an open-classroom school has.

Learning, not education.? There is a fancy form of living within a family that dedicates itself to creating a learning environment, that we're creating.

-=-?but measuring a child's development is certainly not a bad idea.-=-

Had you read the link I brought to the pages on tests, on my site, you would see stories of real people and disadvantages even of high scores.? It can bring results harmful to self-esteem, and it will change the relationship between the parent and child in every single instance that the score is known by the parent, even if the child doesn't know.? Parents deny it, and try with all their might to ignore the scores, and they fail. So let's not test them (the parents) that way if it's not necessary.

-=-?Such is not done in order to judge anything other than progress, ,-=-

That sounds good, and peaceful.? You do know, though, that it's not true.? Test scores grade children, literally, like eggs or beef.? There are the good ones, the fair ones, and the substandard—literally, mathematically substandard.

-=-?...and as parents,?we are ultimately responsible for assuring our children's progress.?-=-

In a successful unschooling family, progress will be blatantly obvious, because learning and growth are right there, every day, all day, every week, month, and year it's seen.? But the learning happens in the moment.??

-=-I'm not suggesting a formal test is the only way to do that, but perhaps the only way the state can be sure the child it also has a responsibility for is progressing.-=-

There are some responsibilities, it's true, but parents don't serve the state.? They aren't in-loco state...reps. :-)

-=-Again, it is the child that pays for a lack of childhood progress.???-=-

Again, you're wrong.? "Pays" is a harsh and awkward way of thinking of the effects of trauma or neglect on a child.

This group is not ABOUT trauma or neglect.

The easiest way to gently look at a lot of these ideas is a daily blog called Just Add Light and Stir.? There are over 3,000 posts already, and a randomizer.? Each has a link or two to similar ideas.? It's easy to dip into for a few moments and come out calmer.

https://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/

Sandra

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I am bringing two posts without the name of the person.? Male name.? Strident defense of school, and unintentional insults to unschooling.

I've been among hundreds of unschoolers at a time for so long (thousands, over the years) that I can honestly forget how much one can not understand about it, sometimes.??

_________________________

What do you mean by "an unschooling parent"? If your son is not going to school, do you not take on some of the school role yourself??

I did not have the option to home school my kids, wish I had, but my granddaughter is dealing with her school at home via Zoom etc. She likes being home, hates the interruptions and time schedules required by the school.? She is self motivated, pretty much gets all A's, yet is put through all this BS?

I am a very big fan of testing, which to me is not something one is "put through". It is one's chance to prove they are succeeding, ready for what comes next, something I was always anxious to do.? ? If one is not comfortable with tests, perhaps it is a lack of confidence that you and your son are succeeding.? If that is the case, it seems to me the testing is that much more important.?

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The second post was in response to Jo Isaac, so I'll put that one there.

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