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I got a response:

-----------------------

Hi,
I didn't think I was rude at all. Actually, I was just responding to your opinions that you put out there for people to read. Maybe you should not put your email address on your website if you don't want people to respond.

And I appreciate your suggestion of finding some other form of entertainment, however I really wasn't talking about how tv effects adults, although I believe it does. I was talking about its influence on children. And I am sure if I knew you and your grown children better I could point out plenty of things they did as a result of watching tv.

I am sorry your not willing to hear your veiwers opinions.

Thankyou,
Sincererly,
Your Neighbor
===========================

I was wondering if anyone had ever bought a Lego Educator set. I was looking at the Simple and Motorized Mechanism Set.<

Yes, we have a few of them kicking around. And we have Mindstorms, too. Mindstorms is a sizable step up as it does require some object-oriented programming to get the robots to do what they are supposed to do, which your kids may or may not enjoy at this stage of their Lego-ing.

If your kids like motorized things and you think that they would enjoy something open-ended to expand their Lego adventures, then one of the motorized educational sets (like the one you are suggesting) might be a great fit. The Klutz kit that Sandra mentioned isn't motorized but it has lots of gears and the activities are great, if your kids like following the instructions. And if you add on the Power Functions kit, they can likely figure out some interesting ways to put the two together!

My son (9 years) also really enjoys the motorized pre-fab projects. He has learned so much about Lego construction principles from doing sets like this, it's amazing! I used to be a bit of a snob about this stuff, thinking that "open-ended" was best, but I've changed my mind based on watching my son apply what he's learned via the project-based sets to his own projects.

Good luck with your decision. I suspect it's very hard to ever go wrong with Lego.

:) Rebecca

***PS- The sex analogy is just the tip of the iceburg. Sex, drugs,
sexism, racism, violence, no respect for parental authority and no
respect for humanity is what tv brings us.***

The sky is falling, the sky is falling, the sky is falling!

That's what those kind of comments make me think! There is nothing so overwhelmingly depressing in all the world than seeing the world through fear and crap. I don't watch sex, drugs, sexism, racism, violence, and disrespect on tv. I watch fascinating things, like forensic science, humor, romance, history, mystery, and the wonderful world of human nature, of humans being humans doing human things.

I suspect that this person watches too many news programs and not enough of the good stuff on tv! If that person has a teenager in school, I'd bet money that their kid talks about sex, drugs, and has experienced violence, racism, and disrespect of adults and humanity in general.

-=-We don't litter school hallways, we don't use up vast amounts of
paper for meaningless projects, we don't get sent paper work ad
infinitum from the school and the teachers, we don't buy notebooks
that get used and then disposed of,...-=-

Keith is in a singing group. They don't meet at our house, but he's
the one who finds their music.

He had written up the words to a song, and made eight copies at work.
They decided to change the words. I offered to reformat that file and
print them here off my printer at home, but he said a couple of the
group members were adamant that it would be a waste of paper not to
make the changes by hand on each sheet.

I know all those singers. They're in their 40's and 50's, mostly;
childless; uptight.

I sent some other music with Keith that night, that we still have in a
file drawer from the late 1970's, before the days of freely-available
photocopying on plain paper. The music had been handwritten by me on
mimeograph masters and run off on inexpensive paper, and we still have
lots of that. So I sent that, told Keith to tell them I said that we
are NOT wasteful of paper, and it was better to learn from decent
copies. They laughed and agreed.

The arguments and defenses and negativities and assurances did more
damage to psyches and planet than a ream of paper just thrown in the
trash would have done. TOO much energy, over eight sheets of paper.

Sandra

-=-Can't she turn the dang TV off if she does not want to watch sex on
TV?
Is someone forcing her to watch stuff she does not like?-=-

Well maybe I should've asked whether her (I had assumed it to be a
"he" from the tone, but I could be wrong) parents let her watch TV all
she wanted all hours of the day and night. If no, then... Oh right.
It was undoubtedly no. And the result? Hostility and funky thinking.
<G>

Sandra

***I wonder if "natural living" could be considered a value rather than a life philosophy? And I wonder if sometimes our values bump up against our unschooling philosophy and we just need to sort that out.

In our house, we value reducing our ecological "foot print" and talk about ways to do that (my kid loves to watch The Story of Stuff). ***

This came up in a radical unschooling panel discussion at a local homeschooling conference. This comes up periodically on unschooling lists as well.

What it always comes down to is whether or not mom or dad's philosophy will override a child's. If a child really wants a juice box and a parent won't buy one because it creates waste to be disposed of, then mom's philosophy overrides a child's desire for a juice box.

When I remind myself of the HUGE amount of waste that happens in public schools, little throw away juice boxes seem like a small insignificant drop in the bucket. By unschooling, we ARE being mindful of waste. We don't litter school hallways, we don't use up vast amounts of paper for meaningless projects, we don't get sent paper work ad infinitum from the school and the teachers, we don't buy notebooks that get used and then disposed of, nor do we kill millions of frogs for dissection.

The one thing I know without a doubt to be true... If a parent is a big fat jerk and they treat recyclables better than they do their own children, their children are very unlikely to value recycling!

"Do you watch
television? Have you channel surfed at all hours of the day? I have
spent a lot of time watching television the last two years, while on
bed rest, and I've
watched all hours of the day and night. I know
what is on tv. Let me ask you, would you find it offensive if I came
into your house and had sex in front of your children?"


Can't she turn the dang TV off if she does not want to watch sex on TV?
Is someone forcing her to watch stuff she does not like?
People are truly weird.


Alex Polikowsky








________________________________

I've not shared the e-mail address from which this came. It didn't
show up on a web search, so the person isn't writing in public, or
maybe changes e-mails for different such forays. It's not uncommon
for me to get an e-mail telling to change my mind and my website
because someone doesn't agree with me about something, but this one
seemed particularly dramatic and I thought some people here might be
entertained, or enlightened, or just have some thoughts they hadn't
thought before.

My response is below the =============line. I don't think it's anyone
on this list. (If it is, suck it up and stop sending crazy mail.)

Subject: TV
Date: March 21, 2010 12:22:49 PM MDT
To: Sandra@...
Hi,
I don't know anything about you other than what you have written about
television and school on your website. But I have to say I am shocked
by how angry you sound at people who think that the majority of
programming on television is rude, crude, sexist and anti-family. I
know plenty of people who have a blasé attitude about television, but
I've never seen anyone so viscously pro-tv before. Do you watch
television? Have you channel surfed at all hours of the day? I have
spent a lot of time watching television the last two years, while on
bed rest, and I've watched all hours of the day and night. I know
what is on tv. Let me ask you, would you find it offensive if I came
into your house and had sex in front of your children? Would you be
appalled if I went into your neighbors house and had sex in front of
their children? How would you feel if the neighbors kids came and
told your children about what they saw? Well that is what tv does and
that is how it works. Even if you don't let your kids watch it,
someone else's children will and will influence your children with
that information. I truly wish you will rethink your position.

Thanks for your time,
Sincerely,
Your Neighbor

PS- The sex analogy is just the tip of the iceburg. Sex, drugs,
sexism, racism, violence, no respect for parental authority and no
respect for humanity is what tv brings us.

================================

Well, you just came and ranted at me in my e-mail, while I never
contacted you directly.
No one in my family is that antagonistic.

I don't know where you saw anger on my site.

-=- I have spent a lot of time watching television the last two years,
while on bed rest-=-

Why don't you buy some books or magazines, or rent DVDs? No one is
forcing you to watch television.

-=-Let me ask you, would you find it offensive if I came into your
house and had sex in front of your children? Would you be appalled if
I went into your neighbors house and had sex in front of their
children? -=-

Are you insane?
I do feel a little bit like you came into my computer and took a crap
on my screen.

-= Even if you don't let your kids watch it, someone else's children
will and will influence your children with that information. I truly
wish you will rethink your position.-=-

"Rethinking my position" won't change anything, if you're correct that
other people's children will come and have all the ill effects of
television even if I were to have prevented mine from watching it.

I did let my children watch it, and they've grown up into sweet and
peaceful young adults who would never dream of addressing anyone as
you have me.

-=I don't know anything about you other than what you have written
about television and school on your website. -=-

Perhaps you should get to know more about a person before you attack
her so rudely and directly. I have written very little about school
anywhere, and most of what is on my site about television was not
written by me.

Sandra Dodd

There is (or used to be) a Klutz Press Lego add-on kit, if you wanted to get something quickly for this week and keep researching the larger purchase.

From: Lisa Wendell <ewendell@...>


Do you know if your boys are interested in motorized Lego's? Our son tried them out at various times and was never interested in owning them. He used / uses the non-motorized Lego's. He just wanted more basic Lego's - at one point he wanted more of the rectangular & square bricks to make bigger and more complex creations. We ended up on eBay to buy the exact pieces he wanted. He will be 16 in June and used Lego's a lot up until age 15 and now it has tapered off a bit.


Samuel is very interested in the motors in theory (they have never had access to them), but Eli is not sure. That was
part of why I was looking at this set with motors and gears and sails
etc. Eli wants to build with gears of various sizes which this set includes and we can also buy extras separately on the site. We had looked at just buying some power functions elements , but Lego offers very little support on how to incorporate them into what you are building. I'm worried that without a bit of basic instruction, the parts won't get a lot of use.


Eli likes to build very small, intricate creations and Samuel prefers things that are sized for lego men. They both enjoy playing with the radio controlled tank, helicopter and airplane we have. (None of those are made out of Legos.)

Amanda
Eli 8, Samuel 7

Do you know if your boys are interested in motorized Lego's? Our son tried them out at various times and was never interested in owning them. He used / uses the non-motorized Lego's. He just wanted more basic Lego's - at one point he wanted more of the rectangular & square bricks to make bigger and more complex creations. We ended up on eBay to buy the exact pieces he wanted. He will be 16 in June and used Lego's a lot up until age 15 and now it has tapered off a bit.

Lisa W.

I was wondering if anyone had ever bought a Lego Educator set. I was looking at the Simple and Motorized Mechanism Set.

I have talked to two guys from Tech support, one was great and the other was not very helpful.

The first guy really pointed me towards Mindstorms, although not the one on the educator's site. He felt the one marketed to schools was much simpler with a focus on not losing parts and completing activities in under 40 minutes. The set marketed to the general public was more complex and more versatile. However, I'm not sure if my boys are ready for it. Eli will be 9 on Friday and Samuel is 7 1/2. They are both experienced Lego builders, but Eli gets a bit panic-y if he feels something looks too hard.

The second person I talked to had no idea how a homeschooler's needs might be different than a school teacher and was not much help. He felt that the mechanisms set was the way to go, but I am having a hard time trusting him.

I started looking for something interesting because Eli's birthday is at the end of the week. The boys are ready to move up to the next step with their Legos (they are almost the only toy they play with), but I'm not sure what that would be. I want something that they can take ideas from and incorporate them into what they are already doing. I have found that adding a new piece to something they already have always sends them in new and exciting directions.

Thanks for any information,
Amanda
Eli (9 on Friday), Samuel 7 1/2

-=-I wonder if "natural living" could be considered a value rather
than a life philosophy? And I wonder if sometimes our values bump up
against our unschooling philosophy and we just need to sort that out.-=-

I think defining things as values or philosophies is more a part of
identifying with other people than of making decisions in one's own
life.

Because the phrase "natural living" is too vague to cover anyone's
entire life experience and needs, it's better as a magazine title or a
conference title than as a philosophy.

As a priority or a principle, it can be added on to anything. Making
the more natural choice can't always be practical, but having it on
the checklist as something to aim toward can be.

Holly and I had a discussion a week or two ago about adults going
barefooted, in the late 1960's, early '70's. Why? Because it was
different and because it was natural. Then we were watching Roots,
lately (first four episodes, and then Holly's out-of-town trip came)
and we talked about "afros" and natural long hair. Choosing things on
the basis of their being more "natural" (or "organic") was an
important part of the counter-culture '60's/hippie/health food larger
changes in 1969, give or take.

Being barefooted turned into the "Earth Shoe" company, which involved
the heel being lower than the ball of the foot. Those shoes weren't
"natural," but they were more natural than some other shoes.

Each person decides on shoes, food, clothes, housing (if they're
lucky), transportation, etc. Each parent has responsibilities to take
care of children, and choosing "natural" over children's needs and
desires could be a problem.

Flexibility and being analytical in each moment is better than
deciding which "belief system" to follow, in my experience.

Sandra

The English version of Severo's blog:


~Katherine




On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 12:54 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:

I have read that the number of kids that learn too read today in Brazil is
around 90%.
That is pretty high from 30 years ago.
There was also a big governmental campaign to teach adults to read
30-25 years ago.
I remember it well. The government agency was called MOBRAL and that name
was used
to call people stupid.
"YOu are going to end up in the MOBRAL"
"Did you go to MOBRAL?!"

So in Brazil people still equate not going to school to not learning to
read and being stupid.
I left Brazil 16 years ago and I graduated from High School ( in an
Amercian Catholic School in Brazil) in 1985 so
I reallly don't know how things are over there anymore.
I can only tell by the way my friends and the brazilians I know react to
homeschooling.
One of my friends just e-mailed me last week to tell me she got a spot at
the american school I graduated
from for her 3.5 year old and her 1 year old. She herself graduated from
the Franco-Swiss School in Brazil ( another
highly prestigious school)She was so excited that I did not know what to
write back.

It does not help that the man that call himself the biggest leader in the
homeschool movement in Brazil is this man (Or so I read):


"Severo was recently described by the Brazilian philosopher and political
commentator Olavo de Carvalho as "the most discriminated against and
persecuted
of Brazilians". Involved in the pro-life and pro-family movement in Brazil
since
1987, Severo has written the definitive work on gay activism in the country
and
more recently has written a pro-life prayer book.
Severo?s work has been mentioned in the Brazilian National Congress, as
well
as major national magazines, including Show da Fe, Eclesia, and Enfoque
Gospel.
He is a theological consultant and correspondent for the Christian
Reasearch
Institute in Brazil. He is also a leader in the homeschooling movement in
that
country, which operates underground due to government persecution.
Through his blog, , Severo writes critiques
of the
pro-abortion and pro-homosexual movements, as well as the administration of
Luiz
Lula, the current president of Brazil, who favors both movements. The blog,
which is read and published widely in Brazil, recently came under attack
from
homosexual activists, who convinced Google to block it for several days.
After
receiving numerous protests, including articles written by Olavo Carvalho
and
others in major Brazilian newspapers, Google restored the site (see
LifeSiteNews
coverage at )..<..>
."

The most progressive people in Brazil would probably not like to be
associated with someone like him and would most likely shun homeschooling
because of the association. A lot of the show on TV that talk about
homeschooling in Brazil paint a picture of conservative Christian that want
to keep their kids away from and protected the temptations of the world.





Alex Polikowsky








________________________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mar 21, 2010, at 1:08 AM, Rebecca McClure wrote:

I wonder if "natural living" could be considered a value rather
than a life philosophy?

Generally speaking I'd say a philosophy is an ideal with a set of
values that support it. It's what someone turns to to help them
decide if an idea is right or wrong for them. It can apply to a part
of life, like a child's learning, or all of life. Generally I'd say a
philosophy is something you're willing to make your life more
difficult for in order to stick with it. How difficult someone is
willing to make their life depends. Some people are willing to die
for their philosophy. Or sacrifice their only son ;-)

Of the specific people I'm thinking of, natural living was definitely
a philosophy, if not a life philosophy. It formed the foundation of
their life choices. Organic food. Organic gardening. Composting. No
plastic. No commercial TV. I didn't get the feeling they'd die for it
though ;-)

Everyone also has a collection of values that shift in priority
depending on the situation that don't necessarily form a cohesive
whole. (And some *only* have a shifting collection.) It might be
labeled a personal philosophy though in my mind a personal philosophy
means someone has given the collection some thought. It's not just a
mish mosh with choices based on current mood ;-)

For instance I value being conservative with money, being green,
buying food with fewer chemicals. Which of those takes precedence
depends on the situation. May depend on whim. May depend on some
other value being more important (like saving time, for instance.)

When an aspect of an interest bumps up against a value, we are
finding ways to work through this. It's challenging to examine our
dearly-held values in light of this whole life unschooling
philosophy, but it's worth it.

Yes, that's what happens with a philosophy. :-) It can help people
see a bigger picture, feel like they have a goal.

But does that mean that we shouldn't consider what we are moving
into as whole life (radical) unschooling based on our prior values?
Especially if we are "mindful of" (as in "attentive to") potential
conflicts?

I'm not entirely sure of what you're asking. But my guess would be it
depends where your priorities end up being. For instance if parents
value organic food and children exploring their interests, when those
two conflict, if the parents are mostly choosing one over the other
it's a good indication of which is most important, which is their
overriding philosophy.

It's not totally cut and dried. Just because I wouldn't have
sacrificed my life to allow Kathryn to unschool, doesn't mean I
shouldn't think of myself as a radical unschooler ;-) What's
important is that someone is making thoughtful choices.

But what's important *here* on this list, is helping people with the
parts of their life they're deliberately trying to make more
difficult by choosing to unschool. If someone decides their children
need to be vegetarian rather than explore their own interests in
food, the purpose of the list isn't to help them compromise
unschooling. They need to figure out how to mesh the two themselves.
Or on a vegetarian list since they're putting the vegetarian
philosophy above unschooling. The purpose of this list is to help
them put unschooling first and figure out how to fit the rest of life
in around it.

Joyce

On 3/20/2010 10:10 AM, mkangj wrote:

I was speaking plain, normal English. Joyce, thank you for catching my typo.

In plain, normal English, "mindful" just means paying attention.. "When you're backing out of the driveway, be mindful of the kids on their bikes." You seem to be using it in a very specialized way that is going to be understood by only a very small fraction of English speakers.

-pam

"I am not against school, specially for children that would otherwise not have access to
what a school can provide in a country like Brazil like a meal, books,
computers, a safe place and more much more."

And that goes back to the original question of who can unschool. Certainly most people in Brazil cannot even if it was legal.


Alex Polikowsky

Another thing that is not good for families wanting to homeschool in Brazil with a man like Severo
being called a "leader" is that is is completely against school.
I am not against school, specially for children that would otherwise not have access to
what a school can provide in a country like Brazil like a meal, books, computers, a safe place and more much more.



Alex Polikowsky








________________________________
___

--- In AlwaysLearning@..., Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:

The problem is that the natural living and unschooling philosophies
aren't the same. The philosophy of natural living narrows the world
to what they parent believes is the best part. If a child's interests
-- like snack foods or Spongebob cartoons or cheap plastic toys --
lay beyond mom's definition of "best" and "natural" and "wholesome"
she needs to compromise unschooling to make natural living work.

I've been mulling over this since I first read it.

I wonder if "natural living" could be considered a value rather than a life philosophy? And I wonder if sometimes our values bump up against our unschooling philosophy and we just need to sort that out.

In our house, we value reducing our ecological "foot print" and talk about ways to do that (my kid loves to watch The Story of Stuff). We also value purchasing toys, etc. that are most likely not to contain lead or other yucky things (although there are no guarantees). And we are long-time vegetarians (although my son is welcome to eat meat if/when he decides to) and choose organic as often as possible. Some of our values (and life choices) might make us look like "natural living" folks but I'm not sure it's an all encompassing life philosophy for our family.

We are, however, embracing a deeper unschooling philosophy in our family - one that extends to our whole life together. We strongly desire to support our child's interests and make them a priority. When an aspect of an interest bumps up against a value, we are finding ways to work through this. It's challenging to examine our dearly-held values in light of this whole life unschooling philosophy, but it's worth it. It seems to be part of my internal "stretching" right now - and part of "saying yes" more often - and working things out, together, as a family when that yes just isn't forthcoming.

But does that mean that we shouldn't consider what we are moving into as whole life (radical) unschooling based on our prior values? Especially if we are "mindful of" (as in "attentive to") potential conflicts?

That's a sincere question and one I've been wondering about. It might be that we will eventually say we are "natural learners" and leave it at that - or use the term "unschooling" to only talk about how we approach learning.

- Rebecca (who realizes that this may be a better question for the Unschooling Basics list but wanted to respond within the context of this thread)

I have read that the number of kids that learn too read today in Brazil is around 90%.
That is pretty high from 30 years ago.
There was also a big governmental campaign to teach adults to read 30-25 years ago.
I remember it well. The government agency was called MOBRAL and that name was used
to call people stupid.
"YOu are going to end up in the MOBRAL"
"Did you go to MOBRAL?!"

So in Brazil people still equate not going to school to not learning to read and being stupid.
I left Brazil 16 years ago and I graduated from High School ( in an Amercian Catholic School in Brazil) in 1985 so
I reallly don't know how things are over there anymore.
I can only tell by the way my friends and the brazilians I know react to homeschooling.
One of my friends just e-mailed me last week to tell me she got a spot at the american school I graduated
from for her 3.5 year old and her 1 year old. She herself graduated from the Franco-Swiss School in Brazil ( another
highly prestigious school)She was so excited that I did not know what to write back.

It does not help that the man that call himself the biggest leader in the homeschool movement in Brazil is this man (Or so I read):


"Severo was recently described by the Brazilian philosopher and political
commentator Olavo de Carvalho as "the most discriminated against and persecuted
of Brazilians". Involved in the pro-life and pro-family movement in Brazil since
1987, Severo has written the definitive work on gay activism in the country and
more recently has written a pro-life prayer book.
Severo?s work has been mentioned in the Brazilian National Congress, as well
as major national magazines, including Show da Fe, Eclesia, and Enfoque Gospel.
He is a theological consultant and correspondent for the Christian Reasearch
Institute in Brazil. He is also a leader in the homeschooling movement in that
country, which operates underground due to government persecution.
Through his blog, , Severo writes critiques of the
pro-abortion and pro-homosexual movements, as well as the administration of Luiz
Lula, the current president of Brazil, who favors both movements. The blog,
which is read and published widely in Brazil, recently came under attack from
homosexual activists, who convinced Google to block it for several days. After
receiving numerous protests, including articles written by Olavo Carvalho and
others in major Brazilian newspapers, Google restored the site (see LifeSiteNews
coverage at )..."

The most progressive people in Brazil would probably not like to be associated with someone like him and would most likely shun homeschooling because of the association. A lot of the show on TV that talk about homeschooling in Brazil paint a picture of conservative Christian that want to keep their kids away from and protected the temptations of the world.





Alex Polikowsky








________________________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]