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I tried the limitation/value approach with the TV years ago because I was finding it a major means of procrastination for myself - and I patted myself on the back about all of the good quality time my daughter would be spending doing other things if I limited TV altogether.

I did find that I stopped procrastinating somewhat and that I got more enjoyment from the shows I chose to watch...but my daughter wasn't watching that much TV to begin with, so keeping her from the few shows she did want to see was pretty pointless and kind of mean. It didn't last long.

Now that she's getting older, most of the TV we watch involves nighttime programming - a lot of it on TLC. We live within a short driving distance of the Cake Boss bakery and had the fortune of meeting several of the people on the show and learning more about how to make those kinds of cakes. It's also been interesting to watch the bakery change from a regular neighborhood place to a chaotic tourist attraction requiring barricades for the waiting customers on the weekends.

Another show that has made for very interesting discussions has been the new season of Celebrity Apprentice. My daughter's initial pull was Cyndi Lauper, so what started out as musical taste has branched into price points, leadership, competition, playing fair, winning, losing, and on and on.

Enriching, definitely - and from as objective a perspective as I can put myself, I'm failing to see anything detrimental.

Kris

-=-I think he/she meant "aggressively pro-tv." As opposed to just not
caring.-=-

I guess I was wrecking the "not caring" curve, but I (WE, because most
of the stories there are by people on this list or its predecessor-
lists and forum)... I was talking about television, and audio-video
input in general, and about learning. The person who wrote to me was
talking about ME, and evil, and sex, and my children (in a little bit
of a creepy, threatening way, emotionally) and suggesting I didn't
know my children well enough to see the bad effects of TV, but if he/
she knew the family he/she could point out the wrongheadedness.

It seemed VERY aggressive to me, but the response came back that it
didn't seem rude.

But then I don't surf the TV day and night. Maybe the result of
someone doing that is that they build up negativity and unleash it on
someone who said what they were doing wasn't so bad.

It's all kind of twisty-contorted.

Sandra

-=--=-...thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential-=-

-=-The way to enhance her brain potential IS to have fun, talk, laugh,
play, be silly, explore share, etc. That IS it--nothing more--but
that's A LOT.-=-

YES!
Think of her as a tree, growing. A tree grows from the seed it was.
All the information for that future tree was in that seed. How would
you enhance a tree's growth and potential? Mostly by preventing
damage to it.

If your daughter grows up whole and safe and happy, maybe she won't
need to have her potential enhanced or repaired. If she grows up with
optimal peace, comfort and opportunity to see, touch, smell, taste and
hear, she can be her mindful self.

Sandra

-=-Dylan achieved the rank of brown belt in Karate *and* Tae Kwon Do ;
Five
years of study and hard work and he got interested in martial arts from
watching old Japanese movies.-=-

Well, true of Kirby and karate. He wanted to learn karate because of
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which also brought him the learning
involved in waking up early to record it and cut the commercials out
as he went, so he could go back to bed. In a box, somewhere in this
house, are all the episodes of TMNT, recorded and labelled by a little
boy who eventually taught the children's program at his karate school.

I'll save your post in the happy evidence file, and someday someone
will write me another insulting letter about how furious I am. I'll
stand guard over that collection. :-)

Sandra

Ooops....typo. That should have read:
"Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beings I've ever seen"

Although "beginnings" instead of "beings" is kinda cool in a poetic sort of way.......

--------Maybe it all can be that way - we walk by something and we try it and then we
find ways to do it at home and I just let that be instead of thinking about ways
to enhance her brain/her potential---------------

Sometimes I think people see a disconnect when looking at an unschooling life in the sense that we, as parents, aren't *supposed* to help our kids develop their deepest interests. I guess some can see this as non supportive of "potential;" we're not trying to raise potential scientists, artists, musicians, car mechanics, etc....but we are, in my view, *supposed* to bring things into our kids view that we think they might find useful, interesting, mind-expanding, and most of all, FUN! (because as others have already mentioned, *that* is where the greatest potential is realized!)

For me, there are two sides to this: 1) our intention and 2) our expectation

If our intention is to somehow "improve" on our children, then we're on the wrong path.

If our expectation is for them to use the object or information in a specific way, then we're on the wrong path as well.

What brings your daughter joy? These are the things you bring to her.

Practicing mindfulness is great, for adults. Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beginnings I've ever seen--have you ever really watched a young one play with bubbles? Or sift sand through a strainer? That is full-body, full-brain mindful meditation even the Dali Lama would appreciate!

Do you remember learning how to ride a bike? Maybe this never happened to you, but I remember my dad yelling, "You're doing IT!!!!!" And you know what? I fell off the bike!

Brie

--------Maybe it all can be that way - we walk by something and we try it and then we
find ways to do it at home and I just let that be instead of thinking about ways
to enhance her brain/her potential---------------

Sometimes I think people see a disconnect when looking at an unschooling life in the sense that we, as parents, aren't *supposed* to help our kids develop their deepest interests. I guess some can see this as non supportive of "potential;" we're not trying to raise potential scientists, artists, musicians, car mechanics, etc....but we are, in my view, *supposed* to bring things into our kids view that we think they might find useful, interesting, mind-expanding, and most of all, FUN! (because as others have already mentioned, *that* is where the greatest potential is realized!)

For me, there are two sides to this: 1) our intention and 2) our expectation

If our intention is to somehow "improve" on our children, then we're on the wrong path.

If our expectation is for them to use the object or information in a specific way, then we're on the wrong path as well.

What brings your daughter joy? These are the things you bring to her.

Practicing mindfulness is great, for adults. Children who've been free to explore and play and *be* who they are, are the most mindful beginnings I've ever seen--have you ever really watched a young one play with bubbles? Or sift sand through a strainer? That is full-body, full-brain mindful meditation even the Dali Lama would appreciate!

Do you remember learning how to ride a bike? Maybe this never happened to you, but I remember my dad yelling, "You're doing IT!!!!!" And you know what? I fell off the bike!

Brie

I found my boys were uninterested in television until 31/2-4 years of age.
They didn't like to sit still, but prefered action and messy play. Plus,
they wanted to interact with real people, lol. At the time though other
moms wanted to help me find tv shows(teletubbies, Sesame Street) to
entertain the kids, so I could have time to myself, lol. My theory about
one group of the tv haters is they introduced tv to escape their kids
demands. Probably, took ages to get the kids to bond with the tv, but the
parents always want control of the duration and value of programs!
Marina

***I think he/she meant "aggressively pro-tv." ***

That's probably it. It's hard to picture Sandra rushing around, forcing TV viewing on others though. "Watch it, or else. <g> I think any of her comments that can be considered pro-TV have been in response to anti-TV stuff.

I'm pro TV. I love it and I wish I was finding time to watch more of it! I'm still fascinated and in awe of television technology. It's just so cool that someone can be in a studio across the country or on the other side of the world and I can turn on my TV and listen to what they have to say, see the pictures they're sharing. I'm not afraid of hearing ideas I disagree with and I don't feel guilty about being entertained.

But, ***I was talking about its influence on children.***

I have seen TV's influence Dylan and it's been really positive. He didn't get interested in TV until he was around three, probably, and he's watched a lot of TV over the years. I can't think of any unpleasant thing he's done as a result of being influenced by TV. He's never beaten up other kids, stolen anything, wrecked the car or knocked over a convenience store. Doesn't lie, drink or smoke, doesn't take drugs, hasn't joined a gang. He hasn't damaged other people's property, kicked a dog, lit a cat on fire.

Deb Lewis

Kris,
this is what I enjoy most about this list--it explores all possibilities. I
find no condemnation or judgement; but lots of analysis and discussion.
Marina


--
Rent our cottage:

Correction: For instance, Karl imitates all kinds of character voices which
he would *not* know what sounded like if he didn't spend time listening to
them.

~Katherine

The original email reminds me of a forum I belonged to when I first started homeschooling. At least once a week someone would start a thread about the perils of TV, video games, or too much computer use. The responses would be filled with lots of dramatic enchancements: *gasp* and *wow* and *I have no words!*, dealing with such issues as "My mother-in-law wants the kids to play Wii!" and "I met an unschooler who lets her kids play video games 16 hours a day!"

At first I tried to summon the appropriate indignation to match the thread; then I began to find it amusing; then I finally left the board because I realized that the posters were spending so much time defining what homeschooling couldn't and shouldn't be, there was no space left to explore any possibilities.

Kris

On Mar 21, 2010, at 11:29 PM, mkangj wrote:

would it be helpful if I introduce certain aspects of mindfulness
to my daughter?

I wondered similar things when Kathryn was young.

The huge difference between adults and kids is the adults feel a gap
and are choosing something that intrigues them to fill it with. WIth
kids it's an adult seeing what they believe is a gap and imposing on
the child something the adult finds intriguing. That's the purpose of
schools: to see weaknesses, imperfections, gaps and let experts fill
them.

If she enjoys yoga, and the classes are fun, do it because you think
she might have fun not because you want to improve an imperfection
(flabby brain potential).

Are the people in LA way more happy than the rest of the country
because they have all these programs to fill in gaps from a very
young age? Or is there perhaps more worry that they are so full of
gaps that experts have identified in people and they haven't found
the right programs to fix them?

Joyce

On 3/21/2010 8:27 PM, d.lewis wrote:

If this person thought you "sounded angry" then vicious might have been the
word she really wanted, but I'm guessing she was after another word and
couldn't find it. Maybe vehemently? Still weird. "Unusually pro-tv"
might have been a better choice but isn't much to get worked up over, is it?
<g>

I think he/she meant "aggressively pro-tv." As opposed to just not caring.

-pam

On 3/21/2010 6:11 PM, sheeboo2 wrote:

The Kabbot-Zinns have a lot of good to say. And I can see how their message can go along with unschooling. But for me, there is nothing more simple (not always easy) than just paying attention to my daughter.

All of these other practices place attention on the parent and on the parent's trip--and I realize that we have our own "inner work" to do too--but I just wish that people could get that "being mindful" or "being in the moment," in terms of relating to our children, requires little more than focusing on them rather than on ourselves.

I read a lot of stuff - Kabbot-Zinn, NVC, and on and on. I read them once and let the ideas flow around in my head and some influence me and some don't. I don't adopt any of them as a way of life - I make up my OWN way of life based on my own family. Some people, like Sandra, have had a HUGE influence on how I think and behave, others have had none. Some of these books I've read and philosophies I've taken a look at might have added some idea to my overall way of thinking that I'm not even aware of. The level of commitment some people seem to have to some of these systems, or philosophies, or beliefs, or whatever you want to call them, seems like the worst kind of religious belief, to me. They think their chosen "system" has all the answers - everybody else's system is lacking, and if only everybody would adopt their system there would be heaven on earth.

Anyway, I agree that really looking and observing and considering our own children is the most enlightening thing we can do. I look back and think that what I did was dip into some philosophy or another and then give it a reality check by thinking about it in relation to my own family. I'd imagine how it would go over, what difference it would make, and so on. And, sometimes, some part of it made sense and I very naturally integrated it into our family life.


-pam

-=-I just let that be instead of thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential - something that does not fit into unschooling. That is what I am finding difficult...

All the best,

M.J.-=-

Part of why you're finding this difficult is that your daughter is only four! I remember having my oldest be four and thinking that I needed to expose him to everything now, now, now! My friend and I were just laughing about all the science experiments and things we did so that they would have all those things "under their belts"--and now they don't even remember them. We are doing science experiments now and what they are getting out of them is so very different I can't even tell you--now our boys are 14 and 15.

Which is not at all to say not to do science experiments--but just do them for the fun and enjoyment. That's what I'd go back and do, in this respect, if I had my boy four again. Although childhood is fleeting in one sense, there is also plenty of time for all of this stuff, and for our kids to come to stuff as they are ready. There will be so many thousands of conversations with your daughter by the time she is 14 in which you will discuss all sorts of things, including mindfulness when it actually has meaning for her as a practice. Before then, she'll be watching you--how you react, how you process your emotions, and I'll be that will have a much bigger internal impact on her than a class that is appealing to an intellect that isn't yet ready to incorporate these abstract thoughts.

Until kids are a certain age, we really aren't self-concious in a way necessary for mindfulness to have meaning. We just are. Our kids ARE having a direct experience with being present and in the moment. I think trying to impose a structure before there's substance to support it is, in essence, a waste of time and money.

-=-...thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential-=-

The way to enhance her brain potential IS to have fun, talk, laugh, play, be silly, explore share, etc. That IS it--nothing more--but that's A LOT. If a class helps do those things, and is MOSTLY about those things, then that could be a cool class. If not, then don't do it.

Joanna

My first reaction: How does trespassing and performing lewd acts as a
trespasser resemble depictions of sex? For one thing I'd be scared the
trespasser were going to rape me...or kill me or my kids. As an analogy the
prowler/sex addict scenario fails because even if the remote didn't work,
and you could walk/wheel your way to the set to change the channel somehow
you would have a choice. In the absence a working channel changer on the
set or faulty off switch off the set or change the channel then the option
is just unplugging the set or changing tv sets. If money is an issue
Freecyle or Craigslist or trash day may provide a working set.

My second reaction: Real acts of sex on television would only be there if
he/she made "personal" films or tuned into some sort of sex channel. But I
can't imagine any regulatory body allowing sex on television--the frontal
nudity is still contentious among tv censors:)

What does this person think of computers? Even with the best of filters
someone named Bambi or some guy named Troy(who claims to be well hung)
inevitably surprizes me with lewd pics or propositions. I delete them and
report them as spam. You have way more control over images on tv than on
computers, where my son's searches for the kinder chocolate egg sites often
ended up redirected to porn sites--leading to explanations.

I have noticed that to people who are anti-tv everyone is pro-tv. I think
like everything tv works for some and not for other people. My kids watch
television--we don't have porn stations where I live, though there is lots
stuff we find silly or unappealing we wouldn't stop others from watching.

Marina

*** I could point out plenty of things they did as a result of
watching tv.***

Why so eager to find rotten things festering inside other people?

Dylan achieved the rank of brown belt in Karate *and* Tae Kwon Do ; Five
years of study and hard work and he got interested in martial arts from
watching old Japanese movies. He saw those movies on TV because, well,
they're old, and not shown in theaters (at least not around here) anymore.

He's learning Italian and he got interested in that from watching Italian TV
on the web and from watching Italian horror movies on TV. (same deal, not
shown in theaters around here.)

He got interested in digital music from music he first heard on Television and
now owns three synthesizers and plays very well, has learned a bunch about
electronics.

He got interested in playing the organ from watching a movie on TV, "The Abominable Dr. Phibes." <g>
He now plays the organ really well, no lessons, just plenty of good Phibes. (I make myself sick)

As a direct result of watching TV he learned how to use an old 16mm camera and to make stop motion films. He has a better camera today and is still making videos and taking really beautiful photographs.

As a result of watching TV he's written several stories and screen plays.

I can't begin to count the number of books he's read because he first saw the story on TV on some old Twilight Zone episode or saw a movie based on a short story or novel. Authors like Richard Matheson, August Derleth, H.P. Lovecraft, Henry James...

I have, a couple different times, tried to write all the things Dylan has learned as a result of watching TV. I haven't been able to finish. There's just too much.

Deb Lewis

-=-"Viscously pro-tv" is much more amusing. "I love TV so much I'm
positively
STICKY with excitement!" <g>-=-

I'm more vacuously pro-tv. Maybe like agnostic of TV... I'm against
the anti-TV people, but I don't know that I'm religiously pro-TV. I
sure do like DVDs and the machines that run them, though!

Sandra

I agree with you. People are putting their children on hold, running
around looking for what they think will make them better parents and
happier people, when we've seen repeatedly and consistently that
ceasing to run around looking at anything other than one's own
children can make them better parents and happier people, right then
and right there.

Sandra

I agree with this. I have a magnet on my fridge that says, Trust Children. I got it from Jan Hunt's website - naturalchild.org. My original post had more to do with offering mindfulness (Buddhism) to children. In Los Angeles, specifically, Santa Monica where I live, they offer mindfulness classes to children starting at age 4. Currently, I am "studying" mindfulness's effect on adult brains. I am finding all the information I am finding regarding neuroplasticity fascinating and I can't help but wonder - would it be helpful if I introduce certain aspects of mindfulness to my daughter? Currently, we do yoga for kids at home. She loves pretending to be a frog and doing assisted handstands. That came about organically because we were walking by the yoga class and she wanted to go in. Maybe it all can be that way - we walk by something and we try it and then we find ways to do it at home and I just let that be instead of thinking about ways to enhance her brain/her potential - something that does not fit into unschooling. That is what I am finding difficult...

All the best,

M.J.